Pros and Cons - oMP vs nMP - Factual list

[Anim]

Both are good machines but there are significant differences that could be overlooked when making a buying decision and these posts keep popping up.

So, asking all users to list your Pros and Cons in comparison to the other machine whichever it may be.

Please try to keep this as unbiased and factual as possible and not turn into a personal flame war.

So, without further ado I will start off:

nMP facts

[Pros]
nMP has Thunderbolt 1 & 2 support, oMP can't support TB at all
nMP has small form factor
nMP is very quiet
nMP comes with dual FirePro cards
nMP is more energy efficient
nMP will depreciate slower

[Cons]
nMP has a 64GB memory limit
nMP has only three AMD GPU options
nMP has no matching (colour, resolution etc) Apple branded display, keyboard or mouse.
nMP GPU FirePro cards do not have ECC memory
nMP does not come with a keyboard or mouse.
nMP Thunderbolt 2 devices are few and expensive

 

[MacVidCards]

I think a very telling issue is that before it even launched you could put better GPUs in the cMP than anything available in nMP. Titan Black coming out today will only further push the 2 year old 7970s (sorry, D700s) into obsolescent obscurity.

It's going to be a long 2-4 years until the GPUs get updated.

Really do think about this, imagine if Intel Mac Pro in 2006 came out with crappier GPUs than outgoing G5.

 

[ScottishCaptain]

Really do think about this, imagine if Intel Mac Pro in 2006 came out with crappier GPUs than outgoing G5.

Shots fired!

-SC

 

[antonis]

Regardless anything else, pretty easy to compare in my opinion:

nMP is the future Apple have chosen (for better or worst).
oMP is a discontinued model.

 

[Marty62]

Pro's and con's are specific to YOUR needs and use, with reference to perhaps
the job you have and the hardware that you own.

For me personally the oMP pro's (2012 5,1) so outweigh the nMP pro's
that I have ordered a 2012 model.

I needed to continue to use expensive PCI cards and various other hardware
that just won't work on the nMP - or even if it would work, the expense of
buying HD enclosures and PCI chassis to add on is prohibitive.
Non of that is tested yet and I can't risk having TB to FW800 issues or wait
a year for driver / software fixes etc.

I'm a firm believer in "trailing edge" tech, it has worked well for me and i hate
being a "beta tester" for anyone - there's enough of that going on in the
software area as it is !!
- just my 2c's as I said, it's different for everyone's situation.
M.

 

[slughead]

Pro's and con's are specific to YOUR needs and use, with reference to perhaps
the job you have and the hardware that you own.

This. Though I'm a huge critic of the nMP, I have to admit that it is literally not currently possible to build a better machine for Final Cut Pro... though that's entirely because of software and hardware limitations put in place by Apple (even if not purposefully).

For CUDA, you're screwed. For Gaming, you've got better options on the oMP. For compute power in general, PCs can wipe the floor. For price/performance in nearly any task able to be run in windows, PCs again win the day.

I'm done arguing Apple could've done "better" as this is an arbitrary term. They made the machine optimized for the specific tasks they wanted to perform. Many will use it to browse facebook and look nice on their desk as they type legal documents in Word and respond to false (but amazing!) fluff emails about cats. Others will use it for the few tasks for which the guts of the thing are best suited. Quite simply: If you don't like the nMP, and you found the oMP more suitable, then Apple is saying Au Revoir to you and your whole part of the market.

 

[deconstruct60]

...
nMP will depreciate slower
....

This is a bit of a misnomer. The two systems are at two different stages of their respective lifecycle. The Mac Pro has relatively new components. The older Mac Pro has CPUs Intel has put on the end-of-life list (or notice of end-of-life) [ 3500/3600 and 5600 series respectively].

When the Mac Pro 2013 gets to 2017-2018 it is at the very least inconclusive it is going to hold its pricing as well as the current systems do.

In terms of tax/finance depreciate, the system's specific characteristic differences are decoupled from that issue almost entirely.

 

[nathan43082]

One thing which steers me away from pre-2013 Mac Pros is the fact that they are older. Many machines start to flake out after a while due to a variety of reasons. When placing my 2013 order in late December, I was seriously considering getting a "beefed up" 2010 model to replace my dead 2008 Mac Pro, but I could not escape the gnawing gut feeling that it was the wrong move. I ordered a new one.

 

[theluggage]

nMP has no matching (colour, resolution etc) Apple branded display, keyboard or mouse.

Well, IMHO lack of a magic mouse should be listed under "Pros" since I'd rather gnaw off my own arm, but you asked for reasoned comments, so...

I wonder how many video/graphics pros (clearly the target market for the nMP) use the Apple 27" Cinema display - the only Apple display for the cMP?

It's very nice (I use one at work, but I'm not a video/graphics pro) and, although it is a thing of beauty, it has always struck me as a "prosumer" product, primarily designed as a MacBook 'dock'.

Lack of a black/space grey keyboard is a mystery considering how hard they're selling the aesthetics of the nMP - it's hardly going to require billions in R&D and major manufacturing re-tooling. Again, though, I wonder how many Mac pro customers use stock Apple keyboards?

Could the choice of black/space grey have been partly to make it a better match for third-party peripherals, which tend towards black/grey...?

 

[snberk103]

Both are good machines but there are significant differences….
Please try to keep this as unbiased and factual ...
nMP facts

[Pros]
...
nMP will depreciate slower
...

We don't know what the relative depreciation rates are yet since we need to give the nMP time to start appearing in the secondary market. I am assuming you mean 'resale' value since 'depreciation' will be calculated at the same rate for any computer hardware for accounting and tax purposes.

Pro's and con's are specific to YOUR needs and use, with reference to perhaps
the job you have and the hardware that you own.

For me personally the oMP pro's (2012 5,1) so outweigh the nMP pro's
that I have ordered a 2012 model.

I agree with this. Although (unlike yourself) I had to order a 2012 MP well before the nMP was released, I do not regret the purchase one bit. In another 2 years I will retire my current 2012 MP and then decide if the 2013 MP has matured enough for my needs.

...
I'm a firm believer in "trailing edge" tech, it has worked well for me and i hate
being a "beta tester" for anyone - ...

Agree absolutely. I figure our 2012 MPs should last for a very long time. And there are enough of the oMPs in circulation that peripherals will be available for a good price for a long time, imo.

 

[flowrider]

I agree with this. Although (unlike yourself) I had to order a 2012 MP well before the nMP was released, I do not regret the purchase one bit. In another 2 years I will retire my current 2012 MP and then decide if the 2013 MP has matured enough for my needs.

I partially agree with this. I also got a 5,1 MacPro after the nMP announcement. Luckily I was able to find a brand new 2010 machine. Even before I fired it up for the first time, I replaced the 6 RAM chips, added HDDs from my old 3,1, and replaced the stock AMD 5770 with a MVC GTX 570. Since then I have replaced the CPUs with X5590s, the GPU with a MVC GTX 780, Put in a Apricorn Velocity x2 with a Samsung 840 SSD and last week I put in a Inateck USB3 card.

Try to modify a nMP like that I doubt I'll ever a customer for the nMP.

Lou

 

[Stephent]

I wish I could have waited until the next generation came out to order one. I did consider getting the cMP, but in the end I did get a nMP. I don't have the legitimate PCI and other peripheral issues others have so it made sense to make the change in tech now so that any purchases I make are with an extern l upgrade model in mind. I just have to hope that Everything on the inside can be upgraded at some point.

 

[slughead]

This is a bit of a misnomer. The two systems are at two different stages of their respective lifecycle.

Nonsense! Since the release delays, there are nMPs on Ebay for more than the retail price.

Extrapolate this out, nMP is actually an investment! Sell it in 5 years and double your money!

I wonder how fast the 2006 Mac Pro would depreciate if it were stuck with the X1900 forever

 

[slughead]

Try to modify a nMP like that I doubt I'll ever a customer for the nMP.

One problem is the 450Watt limit of the nMP. This is not only a power limit but it is also linked to a rather obvious a heat limit. When Anandtech got the power consumption up to 450Watts the core temps got > 90C. The current form-factor and "thermal core" just can't do it.

Though there will always be faster GPU/CPU per watt, the latest and greatest usually require more.

 

[iBug2]

One problem is the 450Watt limit of the nMP. This is not only a power limit but it is also linked to a rather obvious a heat limit. When Anandtech got the power consumption up to 450Watts the core temps got > 90C. The current form-factor and "thermal core" just can't do it.

Though there will always be faster GPU/CPU per watt, the latest and greatest usually require more.

Which is ok. Apple never officially supported latest and greatest GPU's on their old Mac Pro's. We always received 1-2 year old GPU's as "brand new" whenever a new old Mac Pro was released. So the trend has not changed.

----------

I think a very telling issue is that before it even launched you could put better GPUs in the cMP than anything available in nMP. Titan Black coming out today will only further push the 2 year old 7970s (sorry, D700s) into obsolescent obscurity.

Yet Open CL performance of those 2 year old D700's is better than Titan Black. So I ask, obscurity in what aspect?

It's going to be a long 2-4 years until the GPUs get updated.

I'd say 1-2 years is more likely. Are you saying that there's a chance that Apple won't update the new Mac Pro before 2018? Highly doubtful.

Really do think about this, imagine if Intel Mac Pro in 2006 came out with crappier GPUs than outgoing G5.

Unofficially yes. If you want to deal with boot screen issues, Open CL or Cuda issues, not being able to sometimes update to the latest OS update immediately, sure you can install a better GPU not supported by Apple.

 

[handheldgames]

Another Con to two...

TB2 is buggy at best and ejects it's over priced devices.
USB3 is crippled on a 1X link, slower than a Mac Mini or iMac.

 

[MacVidCards]

Which is ok. Apple never officially supported latest and greatest GPU's on their old Mac Pro's. We always received 1-2 year old GPU's as "brand new" whenever a new old Mac Pro was released. So the trend has not changed.

Yay !!! We've continued getting stale GPUs !!! Time for Party Hats.

Yet Open CL performance of those 2 year old D700's is better than Titan Black. So I ask, obscurity in what aspect?

Links? I guess you have forgotten the rather brutal reacquaintance with reality you got in the 3D Mark thread. While 7970s do rather well at Luxmark, the significantly down clocked D700s are a little easier to catch, I'll attach a Barefeats test graph.

Note that D700s in a pair get 3483. As you can see from my other attachment, a single 780Ti scores 1673. If we double 1683 we get.......3363. A Titan Black runs at higher clocks than a 780Ti, will it gain 60 to catch the D700s? Maybe, in any case, seems that in AMD's Home Court of OpenCl they are pretty evenly matched. It's only in OpenGL and CUDA that the word "rout" comes out. And as I demonstrated so well in 3DMark thread, if you want SERIOUS OpenCL horsepower, with 1 external power supply you can install 3 @ 780s/Titans/7970s in a cMP and create OpenCl oomph that makes the nMP seem rather, uh...limp.

I will have a Black here tomorrow, if Nvidia kept same device id it will already work. If not, may have to wait a few days/weeks to get answer. (notice I didn't say "years")

I'd say 1-2 years is more likely. Are you saying that there's a change that Apple won't update the new Mac Pro before 2018? Highly doubtful.

Having math troubles I see. When was the last GPU update from Apple for Mac Pro? August of 2010, the 5770 and 5870. Which was.....3.5 years ago. So going by past performance, I think my 2-4 years estimate seems rather valid, no? Previous GPU updates were around 1.5 years so maybe they'll forget about iThings and work extra hard to design custom PCBs. For cards that don't exist anywhere else on the planet and if so it will "only" be 1 or 2 years of same old same old.

I think many people would agree that those 7970s (whoops, sorry, forgot the flashier new "D700" name) from December of 2011 are going to be mighty long in tooth if they are still around in 2016 as "top" option.

Unofficially yes. If you want to deal with boot screen issues, Open CL or Cuda issues, not being able to sometimes update to the latest OS update immediately, sure you can install a better GPU not supported by Apple.

So, you would rather have a 2 year old GPU than have to wait an extra couple of weeks to update the OS because you are running a CURRENT one? Dream Apple Customer.

I've never had a boot screen problem, what's that? I just write an EFI and solder a new chip on. BINGO, new card. Amazing that one bozo in California can do this with ease but Apple couldn't be bothered for 3+ years. Obviously, the hard work was all done by Nvidia and AMD who wrote drivers and EFI for all of their cards in case Apple decided to enable one.

The fact remains, you can put BETTER GPUS in a cMP, was the case the day they started shipping nMP and the gap between GPUs will only widen as Apple works on better Facebook integration for the iWatch/iEaring.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

So to beat the Dual D700's I need to spend £1,856.66 ( Latest XE conversion $3,097.43) on two GTX Titan Blacks just for the GPUs.

Then to get an eternal PSU that involves the least amount of hassle like the the BOOSTERX 5, I need to pay $99, Excluding international shipping, extra vat, import tax, and customs handling fees Ireland is so happy to add on top.
I also lose my warranty, because I'm an international customer.
http://www.shopfsp.com/shippinginfo.html

Q - Does Shopfsp.com accept international orders?
A - Yes, for as long as purchasers understand and accept these conditions.
1. All items from Shopfsp.com are shipped with a North America Type AC Power cord, with North America Safety Approved Standards.
2. All Product Warranty is voided
3. For items that are NOT featuring Active Power Correction Factor (Active PFC), internationally users must be alert to manually correct input type by switching the available Input Voltage Switch.

So we'll say a nice $250 for the PSU ( without warranty ), and that's if Irish customs is very generous.

I've yet to find a similar type of External Power supply in Ireland and the UK for sale.

So then I've upgraded my 4.1(flashed to 5.1) 2009 Hex core MP for $3347.43 which will beat the D700's in OpenCL for my needs.

I still lose out by having a slower CPU, with older instruction sets, and much slower triple channel RAM.
Never mind the PCIe SSD. While my Samsung EVO on an Apricorn X2 card is nice and gets me around ~440MB/s it's not close to the SSD in the nMP.

While buying the nMP 6core, 512GB SSD, 32GB RAM, and D700's will cost me new $5,339.93.

So for me, it makes sense to sell my current MP, and just get the nMP for the best all round solution.

 

[slughead]

So to beat the Dual D700's I need to spend £1,856.66 ( Latest XE conversion $3,097.43) on two GTX Titan Blacks just for the GPUs.

In the words of the elitists on this forum (who were defending the nMP), "you're just mad because you can't afford it!"

That's all it is, you're just jealous of those who have better hardware, like the guy with a 5,1 who has two titans in his machine.

(note I'm being sarcastic)

----------

Which is ok. Apple never officially supported latest and greatest GPU's on their old Mac Pro's. We always received 1-2 year old GPU's as "brand new" whenever a new old Mac Pro was released. So the trend has not changed.

"It's okay that Apple released a crappy product because they always release crappy products."

Great point!

Except that I can't upgrade this one to use the latest GPU, as I can with my computer released in 2010. *sad trumpet*

 

[MacVidCards]

So to beat the Dual D700's I need to spend £1,856.66 ( Latest XE conversion $3,097.43) on two GTX Titan Blacks just for the GPUs.
Image


Then to get an eternal PSU that involves the least amount of hassle like the the BOOSTERX 5, I need to pay $99, Excluding international shipping, extra vat, import tax, and customs handling fees Ireland is so happy to add on top.
I also lose my warranty, because I'm an international customer.
http://www.shopfsp.com/shippinginfo.html


So we'll say a nice $250 for the PSU ( without warranty ), and that's if Irish customs is very generous.

I've yet to find a similar type of External Power supply in Ireland and the UK for sale.

So then I've upgraded my 4.1(flashed to 5.1) 2009 Hex core MP for $3347.43 which will beat the D700's in OpenCL for my needs.

I still lose out by having a slower CPU, with older instruction sets, and much slower triple channel RAM.
Never mind the PCIe SSD. While my Samsung EVO on an Apricorn X2 card is nice and gets me around ~440MB/s it's not close to the SSD in the nMP.

While buying the nMP 6core, 512GB SSD, 32GB RAM, and D700's will cost me new $5,339.93.

So for me, it makes sense to sell my current MP, and just get the nMP for the best all round solution.

So, either outright lying or just really bad at math.

Funny how often the nMP "supporters" have to resort to "new math" to make the numbers add up.

Why exactly was it so important to add the VAT to Titan price but leave it off the nMP price?

(BTW, I went to school in UK, know what VAT is)

 

[N19h7m4r3]

So, either outright lying or just really bad at math.

Funny how often the nMP "supporters" have to resort to "new math" to make the numbers add up.

Why exactly was it so important to add the VAT to Titan price but leave it off the nMP price?

(BTW, I went to school in UK, know what VAT is)

Thanks for calling me a liar, I'm paying in Euro for the nMP, and getting that Tax free at 3863.

I do not however get tax free outside of Ireland.



Straight from XE Currency

Not included in the Titan is also the Shipping to Ireland, clearly shown in the picture. It only includes UK Mainland shipping.

 

[666sheep]

So to beat the Dual D700's I need to spend £1,856.66 ( Latest XE conversion $3,097.43) on two GTX Titan Blacks just for the GPUs.

No. 2x £236 (£572 total, amazon uk) XFX 7970s will do, even with their crappy clocks (barefeats graph).

 

[N19h7m4r3]

No. 2x £236 (£572 total, amazon uk) XFX 7970s will do, even with their crappy clocks (barefeats graph).

There's only 1 in stock, that would offers international shipping.

Although the Sapphire 6GB 7970's look better, and actually have a warranty that's useable. £986.80 at Amazon UK for me.
A much better situation certainly. Very little stock sadly, and works out more expensive than adding D700's to a 6 core nMP.

If I do that though MVC will still complain I'm putting a 2 year old GPU in my system
Not only 2 year old GPU's, but I'll be putting them in a near 4 year old system.

Now about the CPU, RAM, and SSD.

Overall I think I'll stay with the nMP I ordered, as it offers a better over all package for me. Selling my current system after it arrives. As there's more to the system than just the GPU's.

 

[iBug2]

Having math troubles I see. When was the last GPU update from Apple for Mac Pro? August of 2010, the 5770 and 5870. Which was.....3.5 years ago. So going by past performance, I think my 2-4 years estimate seems rather valid, no?

Having math troubles yourself? Past performance is an average. Not an isolated incidence where Apple didn't update the Mac Pro for 3.5 years. Apple updates their mac line every year more or less. The Mac Pro and before that the PowerMac was mostly following the same refresh cycle before 2010 (depending on Xeon updates from Intel obviously).

----------

"It's okay that Apple released a crappy product because they always release crappy products."

Great point!

Except that I can't upgrade this one to use the latest GPU, as I can with my computer released in 2010. *sad trumpet*

The point stands. If you were not complaining about this fact before, don't start now because the new Mac Pro did not start this tradition of Apple using old GPU's. Not to mention, right now AMD does not have a FirePro card that's better than D700 in terms of technology. When is the next WX000 card coming out that's based on Hawaii?

And anyone who has been using old Mac Pro's has been using old GPU's with or without annoyance so they can continue using two of them now

P.S. I was annoyed by this all my life, starting from days of G3, not being able to use the up to date GPU's my friends were using pissed me off. I'm an avid gamer btw, but in 15 or so years of using macs with outdated GPU's, I came to accept this as a fact.

About the upgrades, we still have to wait and see whether we will be able to upgrade to new GPU's. If Apple sells the next DXXX as a part, I don't see why not.

 

[theSeb]

I don't know if you guys realise, but you have had all of these arguments already in December.