Pros and Cons - oMP vs nMP - Factual list

[wildmac]

Slughead is the man. The voice of us cMP users.

The points are certainly valid for someone who needs to do work NOW or is building a gaming playtoy and doesn't mind upgrading it yearly or even multiple times a year.

However.. for users like myself, that are looking to buy a system to last them 4-5 or more years, buying a cMP now just doesn't make sense. You don't know how long you will have access to PCIe cards with compatible drivers, or what the next system kernel update will bring.

If you already have a 4,1 or 5,1, upgrading it makes sense. But buying one now? Like I said, unless you are viewing it strictly as a production system for the next 1-2 years, it's a risky bet.

 

[Gav Mack]

Yeah, but let's not pretend that the situation was all puppies and rainbows before the nMP came along. Here's what happens to people who look to the hobbyist marketplace for video card upgrades for their oMP:

Pmsl - the extreme 'bodge it end' of hobbyist market methinks! Thank goodness for the optical sized booster boxes, a dremel and a drill eh?

 

[N19h7m4r3]

Pmsl - the extreme 'bodge it end' of hobbyist market methinks! Thank goodness for the optical sized booster boxes, a dremel and a drill eh?

I looked into those, I can only buy them out of the USA, and then because I have them shipped internationally I lose and and all warranty. There's also no guarantee it won't fry my system as it said it's for USA 110v power systems only :/

If I was to go even more hobbyist, and replace my GTX 660 with stronger cards, my system will look a lot like that picture.

 

[Gav Mack]

I looked into those, I can only buy them out of the USA, and then because I have them shipped internationally I lose and and all warranty. There's also no guarantee it won't fry my system as it said it's for USA 110v power systems only :/

If I was to go even more hobbyist, and replace my GTX 660 with stronger cards, my system will look a lot like that picture.

They work with a bog standard 240/110 stepper transformer over here in the uk. Only problem is the really good cheap steppers here are all fluorescent yellow for industrial/building use.

You'll see what I mean with an eBay search for used models

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=240v+110v+transformer&_dcat=4665&rt=nc&LH_ItemCondition=4

 

[N19h7m4r3]

They work with a bog standard 240/110 stepper transformer over here in the uk. Only problem is the really good cheap steppers here are all fluorescent yellow for industrial/building use.

You'll see what I mean with an eBay search for used models

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=240v+110v+transformer&_dcat=4665&rt=nc&LH_ItemCondition=4

Nasty as hell looking haha! So not only would I get bent over by Irish customs, and import fees, I shan't have any warranty, and need one of those yellow abominations? No thank you.

Selling my 2009 system once the new one arrives, if it ever arrives. Last I saw it said April shipping for me.

 

[Gav Mack]

Nasty as hell looking haha! So not only would I get bent over by Irish customs, and import fees, I shan't have any warranty, and need one of those yellow abominations? No thank you.

Selling my 2009 system once the new one arrives, if it ever arrives. Last I saw it said April shipping for me.

Indeed but they can be hidden away. They do work fine though. With the building trade rather knackered in the Republic I'm sure there's more than a few cheap on eBay.ie!

My pal in Dublin gets me to buy his apple kit on his behalf and send it over as gifts cos it's so damn dear over there. Think he must have had five birthdays this past year

 

[iBug2]

Yet another qualifier... let's ignore that the W9000 probably runs in OSX about as well as a D700, you don't need a FirePro on Mac, because the entire reason to buy a FirePro are Windows professional apps!! You can throw a W9000 into an oMP and have a better experience doing the things FirePros are designed to do (eg: Windows Pro Apps) than a D700.

This I'm not sure about. The Mac versions of the same apps might be taking advantage of the FirePro as well. Need tests.

Even you agree you'd much rather have a faster card of the current generation than TWO firepros--a sentiment I would likely share.

Obviously. But I have never used the fastest card available on any of my Macs, so I stopped caring 5-6 years ago. It's not an issue so pressuring that I'd make the switch to PC.

What a common use-case for a Mac user! Evidently one that you don't even do!

I don't have any use for dual GPU's or FirePro's in my workflow but I'm not really the norm here. Anyone dealing with 3D modeling/animation probably is dual booting to Windows on their Mac Pro anyway.

Although now that I have dual GPU's, a first for me, I think I'll just keep a Windows copy available in case I want to do some crossfire gaming. I've never had a computer that could run new AAA titles at high quality before.

They do about as well as the W7000, IIRC. It's almost irrelevant because someone who works in this industry is probably going to prefer the Wx000 series as they're actually certified to run in those apps, unlike the Dx00

If they do work as well as W7000, then you are getting dual W7000 for half the price. We may see many PC users buying these Mac Pro's just for that.

I'm not saying the Dx00 aren't a "good deal"--but they're only a good deal if you actually perform those tasks in Windows. You can't exactly yank the D700's out and sell them for $2000 each, now can you?

And if you are dealing with any apps on OS X that uses dual GPU's.

By the way, most of those Windows Apps are not multi-GPU aware, so having Dual D700 isn't any better than having one.

Which ones? Probably most 3D animations apps should be multi GPU aware, for quite some time now.

Here's a simple question: If someone offered you either a 290X OR a W9000 and you weren't allowed to sell it or give it away, which one would you choose?

290X, since I have absolutely no use for W9000.

Value is not determined by price, unless you're a reseller.

Wrong. I have sold 3 of my Mac Pro's for 70% of their retail value after using them for 1-1.5 years.

The best part about having PCIe slots is not relying on Apple to offer you anything. Here is what happens to people who rely on Apple for video card upgrades:

Image

Yes the only time I actually bought a non-Apple GPU upgrade, I ended up paying 180$ shipment for exchanging the card 2 times because it just kept dying. GTX 285 from EVGA.

If you live in a world where you only have 3 video card options, it does make choosing easy. The rest of the world, including oMP owners, are enjoying better performance in their daily tasks.

For gaming yeah. Enjoy it while it lasts. Meanwhile the rest of us folks are starting to plan our future purchases around Thunderbolt, not PCIe which we won't have any usage for in couple of years. I get it if you want to milk your old Mac Pro for some time more, I have been using mine for 6 years now and maybe if I owned a 2010 or 2012 Mac Pro I might have waited for the second new Mac Pro refresh but upgrade time has come for me and I'm not switching to PC, no way and spending money today on my 2008 Mac Pro is only slightly better than throwing money in the trash.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

My pal in Dublin gets me to buy his apple kit on his behalf and send it over as gifts cos it's so damn dear over there. Think he must have had five birthdays this past year

Tell me about it! It's a joke we pay so much, don't even have a single official Apple store, and their International HQ is here :/

At least Compu b, their Premium Reseller are decent folks.

 

[AidenShaw]

...delete

 

[slughead]

I feel like I'm spinning my wheels here, everything I say you disagree with to make the nMP look better.. I feel like I'm being subtly trolled... I'll bite one last time though.

This I'm not sure about.

Yet you stated the contrary as fact anyway, didn't you?

Anyone dealing with 3D modeling/animation probably is dual booting to Windows on their Mac Pro anyway.

Or just owns a PC, as AidenShaw does.

Although now that I have dual GPU's, a first for me, I think I'll just keep a Windows copy available in case I want to do some crossfire gaming. I've never had a computer that could run new AAA titles at high quality before.

I was talking about Windows Pro apps and FirePros... you certainly do not need FirePro for gaming. There are much cheaper and faster options for gaming than the D700, even when you ignore the extra features in the nMP which have low performance/price ratios that make the nMP uneconomical for this purpose

If they do work as well as W7000, then you are getting dual W7000 for half the price. We may see many PC users buying these Mac Pro's just for that.

Again, you clearly do not know how much W7000 actually cost. Also, those cards come with actual certification to work in those applications and full support/warranties for several years which the Dx00 do not have.

And if you are dealing with any apps on OS X that uses dual GPU's.

There are setups with better price/performance than the Dx00...

Which ones? Probably most 3D animations apps should be multi GPU aware, for quite some time now.

An expert, then? Why don't you google it, as I did. I'm not going to wipe your butt for you.

290X, since I have absolutely no use for W9000.

Wrong. I have sold 3 of my Mac Pro's for 70% of their retail value after using them for 1-1.5 years.

Can you please read the sentence you quoted: unless you're a reseller, value is independent of price. Since you can't sell the D700 out of the nMP to a larger market, it's theoretical resell value is even more irrelevant.

You want to have it both ways: The W9000 isn't worth very much to you in comparison to cheaper cards except in terms of it's retail value, but you then go on to say that the D700 has similar value in spite of the fact that it doesn't have the ability to be resold as the same price.

Things are not better simply based on their price. When you go to a restaurant and order off a lunch menu that has every item at $8.99, do you choose one at random because you think they're all the same? Value is indendent of price, price only factors into something if you're planning on (and if you can) resell it which is exactly what I said.

Why am I explaining the Mengerian theory of value on a tech forum? I'm reexamining my life right now.

Yes the only time I actually bought a non-Apple GPU upgrade, I ended up paying 180$ shipment for exchanging the card 2 times because it just kept dying. GTX 285 from EVGA.

Why don't you do a search for X1900 failures, 8800GT failures on this forum? Just because something's from Apple doesn't mean it has any longevity or lasts any longer. We have no idea how long the Dx00 will last or what the failure rates are and we wont for some months.

I will point out that I replaced my x1900 by buying an upgraded card online from a 3rd party retailer and without voiding the warranty on my Mac Pro--something nMP owners will not be able to do.

How is the nMP superior in terms of replacing failing cards? And yes, there will be dead/dying Dx00, just a matter of percentages and time. This will be especially prevalent in use-cases that push the cards to high temps.

For gaming yeah.

You point out that the new Radeons excel at OpenCl performance beyond the D700, you claim you would prefer a new radeon en lieu of a Dx00, and then you go on to say that the only advantages are in gaming. Why do I get the feeling I'm being trolled?

 

[antonis]

Thought it's relative to this thread's title, barefeats posted another part of their comparisons between oMP and nMP:

http://barefeats.com/tube11.html

 

[Anim]

Thought it's relative to this thread's title, barefeats posted another part of their comparisons between oMP and nMP:

http://barefeats.com/tube11.html

Thanks for the link, there is also a user video on the front page of the forum too which shows real world results.

 

[iBug2]

I feel like I'm spinning my wheels here, everything I say you disagree with to make the nMP look better.. I feel like I'm being subtly trolled... I'll bite one last time though.

I don't have to make the new Mac Pro look better. There's no alternative unless you jump ship to PC. Or well, we can argue that the iMac is a better deal than the Mac Pro if you want to stay on the Mac wagon, in which case I wouldn't argue with you. I was almost switching to iMac instead of buying the new Mac Pro. The only factor which swayed me was the quietness of the Mac Pro. If and when Apple manufactures a silent iMac, I'll sell my Mac Pro and never buy one again. My work doesn't require supercomputing power or more than 32 GB memory. And today iMac's are much much closer to Mac Pros in terms of performance compared to 2005-2009. Back then an iMac wasn't an option for anyone opting for performance.

Or just owns a PC, as AidenShaw does.

Again, I'm not comparing Mac's to PC's here.

I was talking about Windows Pro apps and FirePros... you certainly do not need FirePro for gaming. There are much cheaper and faster options for gaming than the D700, even when you ignore the extra features in the nMP which have low performance/price ratios that make the nMP uneconomical for this purpose

I never said I bought the Mac Pro for gaming or it's a great value for that. I just said since I'll have dual GPU's now, I'll try some crossfire gaming. So you are just derailing here. Btw have you checked the latest barefeats test? http://www.barefeats.com/tube11.html

D700 seems only 8% slower than 280X. That actually puts the D700 about the same performance as a regular 7970 at least on this test. Not bad for a downclocked card. Although at this point I think we are seeing the effects of PCIe 3.0 vs 2.0.

Again, you clearly do not know how much W7000 actually cost. Also, those cards come with actual certification to work in those applications and full support/warranties for several years which the Dx00 do not have.

W7000 with 4 GB memory costs 950$ on amazon. So two of them cost 2K, and that's with lower memory than the D700. Considering you are paying around 1300$ for dual D700, yes I'm correct. You are getting them for almost half the price. Although I haven't seen a single benchmark or user post about this so far. The most we got are synthetic benchmarks which don't really say anything about the FirePro accelerated tasks on 3D apps. Waiting on some posts on creativecow for a while now. I suppose not a lot of people received their machines yet.

There are setups with better price/performance than the Dx00...

Not from Apple. Again, are we simply comparing Macs to PC's now? In that case let's start a new thread because this wasn't about it.

Why don't you do a search for X1900 failures, 8800GT failures on this forum? Just because something's from Apple doesn't mean it has any longevity or lasts any longer. We have no idea how long the Dx00 will last or what the failure rates are and we wont for some months.

I will point out that I replaced my x1900 by buying an upgraded card online from a 3rd party retailer and without voiding the warranty on my Mac Pro--something nMP owners will not be able to do.

How is the nMP superior in terms of replacing failing cards? And yes, there will be dead/dying Dx00, just a matter of percentages and time. This will be especially prevalent in use-cases that push the cards to high temps.

I never said the Apple GPU's are superior. I had one X1900 die as well, my 8800GT did live on forever though. I replaced X1900 for free from the Apple Store because it was under warranty. That's the difference with Apple. They have retail stores all around and if you have one close, then you can exchange anything for free without the wait and shipment charges, something which EVGA cannot offer. In the end I ended up paying less for Apple GPU's even though their initial price was higher. That's the point.

You point out that the new Radeons excel at OpenCl performance beyond the D700, you claim you would prefer a new radeon en lieu of a Dx00, and then you go on to say that the only advantages are in gaming. Why do I get the feeling I'm being trolled?

You install a new Radeon into an old Mac Pro, what you are gonna get is a machine only better in gaming. The old Mac Pro cannot keep up with the new one on general computing tasks just because you put in a newer Radeon. It has slower memory, CPU and bus which will have an effect on everything you do. Obviously if you simply do an Open CL benchmark you will get a bigger number but I doubt running benchmarks is the kind of job people buy these machines for. Since games are mostly about the GPU power and don't really scale well with multiple cores or memory speed, gaming will be a tad bit faster, so what you are getting is a better gaming Mac.