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matticus008

macrumors 68040
Jan 16, 2005
3,330
1
Bay Area, CA
Your conclusions are ridiculous, Matticus.
State your authority.
All the court has to find is that Apple's Eula is in violation of anti-trust behavior by preventing all competition for Macintosh computer HARDWARE
That is neither the law nor the case in front of us, and coming from the person who doesn't even know what the word antitrust means, I feel little need to go any further. I've outlined the requirements. This case quite simply does not meet them.
Right now, Apple's hardware isn't competing against Dell or anyone else except Psystar because no one else's hardware can function as a Macintosh--that is run Macintosh software. The Macintosh hardware market has no competition. You can argue their operating system, which is SOFTWARE (which you yourself said is a DIFFERENT market with supposedly "NO BEARING" on hardware) has competition in the form of Windows, Linux and other Unix varients, but the inability to function as a Macintosh
There you go again. You're just repeating yourself over and over, with no rationale or authority and no understanding of even what you're saying. The "Macintosh hardware market" does not exist--the software is not part of the hardware. Yet you keep bringing them back together. Make up your mind.

If the software has competition such that Apple lacks market power, that's it! Case closed! You can't be tying illegally without market power. Period.

There is nothing about the hardware that makes a Macintosh unique, but you keep trying to force the issue while calling it "generic Intel hardware"--well, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that the machine, a pile of parts from industry-standard vendors, lacks competition. It simply is not true.
Frankly, though, it doesn't matter how you see it or even I see it, but how a judge sees it.
I've been giving you how judges see it, based on my undeniably superior experience in the field and based on a litany of cases across time, from Standard Oil to Continental TV to Jefferson Parish and yes, even Data General.

You are arguing from ignorance and personal outrage, and moreover are doing so in a repetitive and patience-wearing manner after "quitting" multiple times. I doubt anyone reading the thread enjoys having to sit through the tedious process of your wildly baseless remarks and my necessary responses.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
Your conclusions are ridiculous, Matticus. All the court has to find is that Apple's Eula is in violation of anti-trust behavior by preventing all competition for Macintosh computer HARDWARE by not allowing competing hardware to function as a Macintosh, which is a software state, not a hardware state.

This reasoning is ridiculous. Read those Findings of Fact yet?
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,196
1,452
State your authority.

I've quoted the authorities below. Now you state yours because so far you just keep pulling them out of thin air.

That is neither the law nor the case in front of us, and coming from the person who doesn't even know what the word antitrust means, I feel little need to go any further. I've outlined the requirements. This case quite simply does not meet them.

First you libeled Psystar and now you're libeling me. You obviously have an agenda here, but whether that is your own personal agenda or you have some kind of tie to Apple somewhere along the line, I don't really know nor do I care. What matters is that the facts of the case are not distorted into Matticus World, where large companies can do whatever they feel like.

If the software has competition such that Apple lacks market power, that's it! Case closed! You can't be tying illegally without market power. Period.

Apple has 100% of the OS X hardware market. 100% apparently is not enough for you. It has a complete monopoly on OS X hardware. That's a LOT of market power. It's put them in the top 3 hardware makers DESPITE the tiny niche that the operating system itself holds compared to its competitors and that's only possible because it gets 100% of all Macintosh hardware sales with no competition. As stated below, a company need only have SIGNIFICANT economic power to be in violation of anti-trust law. Apple's economic position is far more than significant.

There is nothing about the hardware that makes a Macintosh unique, but you keep trying to force the issue while calling it "generic Intel hardware"--well, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that the machine, a pile of parts from industry-standard vendors, lacks competition. It simply is not true.

It is the Macintosh OPERATING SYSTEM that makes the hardware unique and that is precisely what Apple is using to prevent competition in the Mac Hardware market. You know, the one you say doesn't exist? They're using their software market to monopolize their hardware market and this is called TYING (and I will prove it below). I cannot buy a Dell computer that better suits my hardware needs because Apple says I cannot install their operating system on anyone else's machine, which means my Macintosh software will not run on that hardware. Thus, Apple has a monopoly on Macintosh Computer Hardware since they don't have a single competitor for their system (until Psystar). Psystar's lawsuit is that the OS installation part of their Eula is invalid because it openly prevents ALL competition for Apple's hardware and thus is a violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. The Eula blocks trade and commerce for the Macintosh system of computers.


I've been giving you how judges see it, based on my undeniably superior experience in the field and based on a litany of cases across time, from

Why don't you let the judges actually try the case instead of deciding it for them? What's your interest in this case that you refuse to acknowledge the actual case and instead keep spinning it off into different directions and defamation of character?

Here's a legal definition of tying from http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/hearings/single_firm/comments/219224_b.htm

Tying under U.S. law has been defined as "an agreement by a party to sell one product but only on the condition that the buyer also purchases a different (or tied) product, or at least agrees that he will not purchase that product from any other supplier."

When you buy OS X at Best Buy, their Eula ties it to Apple hardware. By buying OS X, you agree to buy or have already bought OS X hardware. On the flip side, when you buy a computer from Apple, it always has OS X on it. You cannot buy a computer WITHOUT OS X on it from Apple. There can be zero legal doubt that Apple has engaged in 'tying'.

Now for anti-trust:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-trust#United_States_antitrust

Psystar has alleged Apple is in violation of the Sherman Anti-trust law which in part says,
"Section 1. Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal. Every person who shall make any contract or engage in any combination or conspiracy hereby declared to be illegal shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and, on conviction thereof, shall be punished by fine....

Section 2. Every person who shall monopolize, or attempt to monopolize, or combine or conspire with any other person or persons, to monopolize any part of the trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and, on conviction thereof, shall be punished by fine...."

There can be little doubt that by suing Psystar that Apple is attempting to prevent the trade and commerce of Psystar selling generic Intel computer hardware. By Apple's Eula, which forbids installation of OS X on non-Apple branded hardware, they are attemping to prevent all trade and commerce regarding hardware capable of running the Macintosh Operating System. They are attempting to prevent all competition for hardware that runs the Macintosh Operating System. They have, in effect, a monopoly on Macintosh Computer Systems. Even IF you view OS X as only a PART of a larger operating system market, the law above quite clearly says "...part of the trade or commerce..."

Apple does not have to be a monopoly in order to violate anti-trust laws. It only has to actively prevent trade or commerce in part of that market and have "significant" economic clout. It doesn't have to be the leader and it doesn't have to have a majority share. Apple is clearly trying to block trade and commerce of computer hardware in a significant part of an economic market with their Eula that prevents installation on anyone else's computers.


As quoted in this article ( http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6538 ):

The antitrust problem with tie-ins is that the leverage generated by economic power in one market is used to accomplish sales in another. Once it is established that a tie-in is present; that the seller has sufficient economic power in the desired product to force the tie-in; and that a "not insubstantial" amount of sales is involved (amounts as small as $60,800 have been found to meet this standard), they are generally deemed unlawful.

So while Matticus states that Apple does not have significant market share or economic clout to warrant anti-trust behavior, it is perfectly clear that is has no been the case in U.S. precdent of anti-trust law. Apple makes hundreds of millions of dollars of profit nearly every quarter, which is quite a bit more than $60,800 and this is possible to having no competition in the Macintosh hardware market due to the anti-trust behaviors described in their Eula, which forbids competition to Macintosh hardware.

So despite the 'interest in law' claims of Matticus and despite his attempts to paint me as an idiot that doesn't even know the definition of anti-trust, it is quite EASILY PROVEN that Apple is both guilty of 'tying' and violating the Sherman Anti-Trust Act and that their profits are well in excess of the amounts historically viewed to qualify as having significant economic power as a result of those violations.

Here are some more articles on tying and the Psystar Case that present a more balanced view than Matticus' ramblings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce)


Balanced News on the Psystar legal Case:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-9933896-37.html

http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/...al-team-from-mortify-debase-and-demolish-llp/

http://www.slashgear.com/apple-could-face-licencing-demands-if-psystar-case-goes-awry-1712678.php

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9113522


You are arguing from ignorance and personal outrage

What are you arguing from, Matticus? You ignore the law. You ignore the facts of the case. You refuse to look at any of the evidence and you declare the trial over before it has even begun. You ignore all others statements on law. You ignore the laws posted here. And then you try to paint anyone that disagrees with you as ignorant and emotionally outraged instead of dealing with the facts of the case.

Now you can continue to defame my character and spread false information and try to spin off into directions this lawsuit doesn't go, but that won't change the FACTS of the case. While Psystar is guilty of violating Apple's Eula, that Eula is clearly null and void due to its anti-trust nature, which attempts to block trade and commerce in part of the computer market to Apple's sole advantage.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
They have, in effect, a monopoly on Macintosh Computer Systems.

I read this far simply shaking my head in wonder about how wrongly you manage to read everything you see, until I got to this part and couldn't help but to laugh out loud. Of course Apple has a "monopoly" over Macintosh computer systems. It is Apple's product! Can you honestly not see even this much?
 

ryanwarsaw

macrumors 68030
Apr 7, 2007
2,746
2,441
I read this far simply shaking my head in wonder about how wrongly you manage to read everything you see, until I got to this part and couldn't help but to laugh out loud. Of course Apple has a "monopoly" over Macintosh computer systems. It is Apple's product! Can you honestly not see even this much?


Didn't MS argue that with certain things? although I am not saying you are wrong and see your point.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
Didn't MS argue that with certain things? although I am not saying you are wrong and see your point.

Microsoft argued every single point and lost. Their fundamental problem was that they had a 95% share of the Intel-compatible PC operating systems market and had clearly violated violated antitrust laws by using that overwhelming market share to leverage themselves into the web browser market. Placed in evidence was a rather impressive e-mail trail that illustrated Microsoft's intent to use their market share to minimize Netscape's access to the market.
 

ryanwarsaw

macrumors 68030
Apr 7, 2007
2,746
2,441
I will just say I am not smart enough to argue either way. Isn't the mesenger they sell still bundled?
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,093
22,159
See people keep saying that about the OS but some thing people are going to rememeber is on another front apple is getting dangrouslly close to hitting monoply size for mp3 player market and how they linked iPod with iTunes and the iTMS store so I for see a battle coming there and that is where M$ losing its antitrust is going to be used against apple.

well i dont personally see apple getting sued for their mp3 players, because there are literally thousands of other options and apple isnt doing a thing to stop them, except pump out devices that people like much more.
 

Counterfit

macrumors G3
Aug 20, 2003
8,195
0
sitting on your shoulder
I read this far simply shaking my head in wonder about how wrongly you manage to read everything you see, until I got to this part and couldn't help but to laugh out loud. Of course Apple has a "monopoly" over Macintosh computer systems. It is Apple's product! Can you honestly not see even this much?

Careful! That's libel! :rolleyes:
 

matticus008

macrumors 68040
Jan 16, 2005
3,330
1
Bay Area, CA
I've quoted the authorities below.
You've provided no authorities. You've provided secondary references, and what's more, they agree with me! This is a full-on carnival of absurdity.
Now you state yours because so far you just keep pulling them out of thin air.
Had you even so much as read your first link, you'd see that that is not the case:

"(a) Market power Despite the fact that tying has generally been considered under section 1, rather than section 2, of the Sherman Act,15 a certain degree of market power by the seller in the market of the tying product has consistently been one of the prerequisites of illegal tying."
"(b) Tying arrangements Firms with significant market power were prohibited from entering into tying arrangements, i.e. to force customers to purchase a tied product along with the "separate" tying product. The firms were subject to this prohibition independently of any anticompetitive effects or efficiency gains. In what follows, we first address what it means to have "two separate products" and then what it means to "force" a purchase."
"(c) A substantial amount of commerce in the tied product For a tying arrangement to be illegal under the per se approach, "a.'not insubstantial' amount of interstate commerce"29 in the tied product had to be affected. "
"In Jefferson Parish, a 30% market share led the Court to conclude that the defendant did not have the requisite market power."
"2. THE RULE OF REASON 1N CONTEXT U.S. antitrust policy towards tying had a long journey from the hostile approach of the early per se rule to a modified per se rule willing to consider the possibility of tying efficiencies (with four Justices in favor of a rule of reason) under Jefferson Parish, to a neutral position under the Microsoft III rule of reason."


All of that should look substantially familiar, seeing as though I've already said it all.
Apple has 100% of the OS X hardware market. 100% apparently is not enough for you.
THERE IS NO "OS X HARDWARE" MARKET. All companies have 100% of the "market" (a "monopoly") of their own products. That does not make it a market.

You have said the hardware and software are separate. "OS X Hardware" is therefore an impossibility, unless OS X and Mac hardware are naturally related, in which case--surprise! Defense to unlawful tying.
Here's a legal definition of tying
It's exactly the one I've already given. You have not demonstrated how it fits.
There can be zero legal doubt that Apple has engaged in 'tying'.
Tying is not illegal. I don't know why you can't get even that much through your head.
There can be little doubt that by suing Psystar that Apple is attempting to prevent the trade and commerce of Psystar selling generic Intel computer hardware.
Psystar is not being prevented from selling generic Intel hardware any more than HP is being prevented from doing so.
Apple is clearly trying to block trade and commerce of computer hardware in a significant part of an economic market with their Eula that prevents installation on anyone else's computers.
How does that interfere with trade?
Not relevant. No one is suing Apple about being forced to get OS X with their Mac. You're flopping about with backwards examples.
So while Matticus states that Apple does not have significant market share or economic clout to warrant anti-trust behavior, it is perfectly clear that is has no been the case in U.S. precdent of anti-trust law.
"In Jefferson Parish, a 30% market share led the Court to conclude that the defendant did not have the requisite market power." Quite plainly in a source you linked but have neither read nor understood. Apple market share: 7%. You do the math.
it is quite EASILY PROVEN that Apple is both guilty of 'tying' and violating the Sherman Anti-Trust Act
We're waiting. Tying is not illegal. It's time for you to demonstrate the next five steps.
Here are some more articles on tying and the Psystar Case that present a more balanced view than Matticus' ramblings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce)
Yes, let's look at that. "It is often illegal when the products are not naturally related". That's correct--and a presumption Psystar has to overcome by separating the markets. But when they do so, the relationship of the software no longer applies to the hardware. See above, with the ongoing ignorance that is the "OS X hardware market" debacle.

"Tying is related to Freebie marketing [...] a common (and legal) method of giving away (or selling at a substantial discount) one item to ensure a continual flow of sales of another related item."

"More recently, the Court has eliminated any presumption of market power based solely on the fact that the tying product is patented or copyrighted"

"Success on a tying claim typically requires proof of four elements:" It's actually five, as I outlined above, in the case of vertical non-price allegations.

Wikipedia is not exactly correct, but it's basically on track, and it finds no disagreement whatsoever with anything I've said.
Balanced News on the Psystar legal Case:
None of those news articles presents a complete analysis, and each one fully admits that Psystar's only hope is, as I've already said, in convincing an asleep-at-the-wheel judge either that Apple has market power in the desktop space (basically impossible) or that Mac hardware is somehow "different"--without collapsing back into a single market.

Indeed, all of them talk about how unlikely a Psystar victory is. One of them even ends with: "My guess is the company would sooner kill retail sales of OS X and manage upgrades through iTunes, than allow it to be run on inferior machines over whose quality it has no control." Another says: "systar is unlikely to survive no matter the outcome".

These are your links, for crying out loud.
What are you arguing from, Matticus? You ignore the law. You ignore the facts of the case. You refuse to look at any of the evidence and you declare the trial over before it has even begun.
No. Quite clearly, the facts have been in discussion for pages now. You've presented nothing which contradicts my explanation of the law, and your "favorable" sources even agree with me.
While Psystar is guilty of violating Apple's Eula, that Eula is clearly null and void due to its anti-trust nature
Declaring the trial over before it's begun much? Here's the thing you don't understand: innocent until proven guilty applies in unfair competition as well. The burden of proof lies with the affirmative--and you've made no case whatsoever except wishes and ponies and conclusory statements. The law does not provide much for Psystar, and Apple enjoys the benefit of the status quo.

When you've read and understood the Wikipedia article, let alone the DOJ article, maybe you'll start making some informed comments. Until then, you continue to waste time and space.
 

CWallace

macrumors G5
Aug 17, 2007
12,528
11,543
Seattle, WA
See people keep saying that about the OS but some thing people are going to rememeber is on another front apple is getting dangrouslly close to hitting monoply size for mp3 player market and how they linked iPod with iTunes and the iTMS store so I for see a battle coming there and that is where M$ losing its antitrust is going to be used against apple.

Apple has a commanding lead because Microsoft's attempts to take over the MP3 market like they took over the PC operating market have spectacularly failed. Apple gained a commanding presence because they executed properly when all their competitors failed to do so.


As for here I hope apple loses but that is because I hate apple current desktop line up and want to build my own.

Nothing is (really) stopping you from building a Hackintosh or using that new EFiX boot device to install OS X on a non-Apple-branded PC.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
I will just say I am not smart enough to argue either way. Isn't the mesenger they sell still bundled?

I don't know, but bundling is not inherently illegal. It depends very much on the circumstances.

I keep pointing to the Findings of Fact in US v. Microsoft. It's probably futility in motion to recommend them again, but they do make for interesting and informative reading for those who'd like to know what the law allows and what it does not.

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm

The sections on Netscape, Apple and IBM are particularly revealing. I dare anyone to read them without muttering "those dirty SOBs" out loud.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,093
22,159
As I thought, Matticus replies yet again with more lies, slander and BS. Yawn.

mhmm stick with that good ole, i just got **** on but ill pretend im not interested attitude.

Would you care to support your thoughts? I personally saw matticus do a great job, maybe your watching a different thread.
 

CWallace

macrumors G5
Aug 17, 2007
12,528
11,543
Seattle, WA
Apple files motion for dismissal of Psystar counterclaims

Apple has filed a motion with U.S. District Court seeking to dismiss the claims of Psystar, which allege that Apple has used a monopoly position as the manufacturer of Mac computers to cause restraint of trade, unfair competition, and other violations of antitrust law.

Appleinsider.com link
 
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