query with my newly arrived iMac 27" pls

[wardieuk]

I just received a new base model 27" iMac and added a 512 GB ssd as an upgrade.
I'm angry as I was assured (by 3 seperate tech guru's (yeah right)) that it would ship with HS but shipped with Sierra and as I spent so much, why should the first thing I have to do, is upgrade.
My other issue is that when I go to about this Mac it says I have 500gb flash storage less the programmes i.e. (498.95 down to 466.85GB)
my point is where are the extra 12gb with a 512gb machine and have I got the latest apple ssd's. these little annoyances haven't filled me with no confidence and wonder whether to send the thing back.
advice pls ??

 

[tn-xyz]

I just received a new base model 27" iMac and added a 512 GB ssd as an upgrade.
I'm angry as I was assured (by 3 seperate tech guru's (yeah right)) that it would ship with HS but shipped with Sierra and as I spent so much, why should the first thing I have to do, is upgrade.

you don't have to upgrade. no one forces you to and actually, it might be better to wait.

My other issue is that when I go to about this Mac it says I have 500gb flash storage less the programmes i.e. (498.95 down to 466.85GB)
my point is where are the extra 12gb with a 512gb machine and have I got the latest apple ssd's. these little annoyances haven't filled me with no confidence and wonder whether to send the thing back.
advice pls ??

manufacturers use the decimal definition of 512GB and so does apple (like everyone else btw). software uses the binary definition. it's always less. and it's nothing new either.

 

[wardieuk]

Thanks. I'm just angry as it states on their website High Sierra ships with the model, 3 tech's told me it definitely comes with HS and then it doesn't. Why would the first thing you want to do after spending £2500 on a pc is spend the first 30 minutes downloading all the latest updates. They had to fit an ssd, they had to install final cut pro, but too frigging lazy to update the OS. Im undecided whether to re box and return as a matter of principle....grrrr

 

[MAJ6288]

Thanks. I'm just angry as it states on their website High Sierra ships with the model, 3 tech's told me it definitely comes with HS and then it doesn't. Why would the first thing you want to do after spending £2500 on a pc is spend the first 30 minutes downloading all the latest updates. They had to fit an ssd, they had to install final cut pro, but too frigging lazy to update the OS. Im undecided whether to re box and return as a matter of principle....grrrr

and I thought I was a fussy customer!

 

[tn-xyz]

Thanks. I'm just angry as it states on their website High Sierra ships with the model, 3 tech's told me it definitely comes with HS and then it doesn't. Why would the first thing you want to do after spending £2500 on a pc is spend the first 30 minutes downloading all the latest updates. They had to fit an ssd, they had to install final cut pro, but too frigging lazy to update the OS. Im undecided whether to re box and return as a matter of principle....grrrr

calm down. this is no big deal.
your imac works just fine and high sierra is just 30 minutes away from you if you desire it that much.

 

[theluggage]

Thanks. I'm just angry as it states on their website High Sierra ships with the model, 3 tech's told me it definitely comes with HS and then it doesn't.

Did you get it direct from Apple? After 25th September? Did the techs work for Apple?

If so then, yeah, you have the right to be mildly miffed, since the Apple website clearly says it comes with "High Sierra" and the only small-print qualifier is "After 25th September" and Apple are supposed to be a high-class outfit.

That said - don't complain because I'd seriously give it a couple of months to give Apple time to put out a couple of point releases to fix the bugs and third party developers to fix their products.

my point is where are the extra 12gb with a 512gb machine and have I got the latest apple ssd's.

That is curious and I don't think @tn-xyz has the answer: Apple's spec page says "1GB = 1 billion bytes and 1TB = 1 trillion bytes" (for the hardware) and the manual for the "diskutil" software also says that it uses the decimal system.

To be sure you're getting the full info, open terminal and type "diskutil info /dev/disk0" and look for the "Disk Size" line.

On a 1TB iMac, I get:

Disk Size: 1.0 TB (1000555581440 Bytes)

...so, pretty much as sold. However, and on my old MBP which has a Crucial 512GB (again, with 1GB = 1 billion in the specs) SSD fitted, I get:

Disk Size: 512.1 GB (512110190592 Bytes)

...again, 512GB is still 512GB... so if you're seeing 500GB it is a bit odd.

Again - reality check, though: it is commonplace to leave a bit of unallocated space on a SSD for performance reasons ("overprovisioning"). Sometimes this is built into the SSD and "hidden" to MacOS (you need the drive maker's firmware tweak utility to change it) and/or you can increase the overprovisioning (and maybe improve performance) by leaving part of the disc unallocated when you partition it.

For the 3rd party SSD I fitted to my MBP, I did the latter and deliberately only created a 500GB MacOS partition, so diskutil can see the unused space.

For the 1TB SSD I just trusted Apple to have set it up correctly (possibly the drive has more than 1.0TB of flash - if it was actually a 1024GB drive that would be about right - or maybe they decided that the larger drive doesn't need extra overprovisioning).

What are other 512GB iMac owners seeing there? 500GB usable seems about right, but it is an aberration that Apple quote the "gross" capacity for the 512GB drive and "net" capacity for the 1TB.

Seriously - I'm speculating here. Anybody else have any info?

 

[Apple_Robert]

Thanks. I'm just angry as it states on their website High Sierra ships with the model, 3 tech's told me it definitely comes with HS and then it doesn't. Why would the first thing you want to do after spending £2500 on a pc is spend the first 30 minutes downloading all the latest updates. They had to fit an ssd, they had to install final cut pro, but too frigging lazy to update the OS. Im undecided whether to re box and return as a matter of principle....grrrr

Return the iMac and wait another week or two, and then make another purchase. That way you shouldn't have to trouble yourself with the physically taxing task of upgrading your iMac.

If you want to be angry at someone, be angry at yourself for complaining about such trivial matters.

 

[Sheza]

The missing amount could come from a recovery volume or similar.

It is common practice with virtually every computer manufacturer to state a headline capacity figure that is actually a little lower in practice (usually mathematical reasons) sure it's a bit annoying but as a percentage of the entire drive it is not that much, and Apple is certainly not alone in that.

I have also received an iMac recently and I was pleased that it didn't come with High Sierra, as I have heard many bad things about that OS and I don't believe it is ready for prime time. As it happens, my iMac has a faulty fan and the replacement is being built right now. I'll let you know if it has High Sierra on it...

 

[Mlrollin91]

Did you get it direct from Apple? After 25th September? Did the techs work for Apple?

If so then, yeah, you have the right to be mildly miffed, since the Apple website clearly says it comes with "High Sierra" and the only small-print qualifier is "After 25th September" and Apple are supposed to be a high-class outfit.

That said - don't complain because I'd seriously give it a couple of months to give Apple time to put out a couple of point releases to fix the bugs and third party developers to fix their products.



That is curious and I don't think @tn-xyz has the answer: Apple's spec page says "1GB = 1 billion bytes and 1TB = 1 trillion bytes" (for the hardware) and the manual for the "diskutil" software also says that it uses the decimal system.

To be sure you're getting the full info, open terminal and type "diskutil info /dev/disk0" and look for the "Disk Size" line.

On a 1TB iMac, I get:

Disk Size: 1.0 TB (1000555581440 Bytes)

...so, pretty much as sold. However, and on my old MBP which has a Crucial 512GB (again, with 1GB = 1 billion in the specs) SSD fitted, I get:

Disk Size: 512.1 GB (512110190592 Bytes)

...again, 512GB is still 512GB... so if you're seeing 500GB it is a bit odd.

Again - reality check, though: it is commonplace to leave a bit of unallocated space on a SSD for performance reasons ("overprovisioning"). Sometimes this is built into the SSD and "hidden" to MacOS (you need the drive maker's firmware tweak utility to change it) and/or you can increase the overprovisioning (and maybe improve performance) by leaving part of the disc unallocated when you partition it.

For the 3rd party SSD I fitted to my MBP, I did the latter and deliberately only created a 500GB MacOS partition, so diskutil can see the unused space.

For the 1TB SSD I just trusted Apple to have set it up correctly (possibly the drive has more than 1.0TB of flash - if it was actually a 1024GB drive that would be about right - or maybe they decided that the larger drive doesn't need extra overprovisioning).

What are other 512GB iMac owners seeing there? 500GB usable seems about right, but it is an aberration that Apple quote the "gross" capacity for the 512GB drive and "net" capacity for the 1TB.

Seriously - I'm speculating here. Anybody else have any info?

My 256GB SSD is 249.68. So that makes perfect sense that a 512GB SSD is 500GB.
[doublepost=1507761390][/doublepost]

Thanks. I'm just angry as it states on their website High Sierra ships with the model, 3 tech's told me it definitely comes with HS and then it doesn't. Why would the first thing you want to do after spending £2500 on a pc is spend the first 30 minutes downloading all the latest updates. They had to fit an ssd, they had to install final cut pro, but too frigging lazy to update the OS. Im undecided whether to re box and return as a matter of principle....grrrr

Are you serious right now? You can't be serious. I don't know what website you are looking at that says it "ships" with HS, but anyone that you spoke to probably thought you were talking about being compatible out of the box. Meaning you can plug it in and install HS right away. HS just came out. It is highly unlikely your machine was built in the last 2 weeks.

 

[ignatius345]

Thanks. I'm just angry as it states on their website High Sierra ships with the model, 3 tech's told me it definitely comes with HS and then it doesn't. Why would the first thing you want to do after spending £2500 on a pc is spend the first 30 minutes downloading all the latest updates. They had to fit an ssd, they had to install final cut pro, but too frigging lazy to update the OS. Im undecided whether to re box and return as a matter of principle....grrrr

Seriously, I've had to run OS updates on every Mac I've ever bought (well, since back in the update CD or DVD days anyway). The machine you're buying was probably assembled and its hard drive imaged well before the current OS came out, much less any supplemental security updates and the like. You're also gonna have plenty of other software to install and update, I'd imagine, so maybe set aside a couple hours and let it all happen.

 

[wardieuk]

Return the iMac and wait another week or two, and then make another purchase. That way you shouldn't have to trouble yourself with the physically taxing task of upgrading your iMac.

If you want to be angry at someone, be angry at yourself for complaining about such trivial matters.

[doublepost=1507788977][/doublepost]wow, it must be amazing to be you BasicGreatGuy, hiding behind that cape, totally jealous.
I have calmed down now, but you just seemed to have missed the point, I'm not that tech minded like some of you
here and 3 techs told me it shipped with HS (I have the transcripts). I spent £2500 on something and the first thing I SHOULDN'T have to do is spend 30 minutes of my life downloading a new OS I was PROMISED it shipped with that it also states it ships with on its website.
The 500 gb thing also perplexed me as a non techie person. Anyways, I will crack on with everything however I don't think Apple is what I would call a premium company at all like others that have no quibble policies or offer small compensation for mis-selling. Just very very irksome from a company claiming to be high end when they really are not. Anyways, thanks for the replies, appreciate them all.

 

[Sheza]

[doublepost=1507788977][/doublepost]wow, it must be amazing to be you BasicGreatGuy, hiding behind that cape, totally jealous.
I have calmed down now, but you just seemed to have missed the point, I'm not that tech minded like some of you
here and 3 techs told me it shipped with HS (I have the transcripts). I spent £2500 on something and the first thing I SHOULDN'T have to do is spend 30 minutes of my life downloading a new OS I was PROMISED it shipped with that it also states it ships with on its website.
The 500 gb thing also perplexed me as a non techie person. Anyways, I will crack on with everything however I don't think Apple is what I would call a premium company at all like others that have no quibble policies or offer small compensation for mis-selling. Just very very irksome from a company claiming to be high end when they really are not. Anyways, thanks for the replies, appreciate them all.

Sure, the website states that the operating system is High Sierra. But it doesn't say it ships with it, just that it is the operating system for the Mac. It's a free upgrade that you can download in the background while you use your computer, it's really not a big deal and, as I said, it's probably a good thing that it's not yet shipping with it given how buggy it can be.

As for being a premium company - let's think about it. You stated two issues, the OS and the SSD size. We worked out that the SSD size is due to mathematics and the way they are manufactured. We've established that there is a small lead time on the latest OS, but that it is a free and easy upgrade. It's not like someone's promised to sell you a computer with Windows 8 on it and instead it has Windows 7, requiring you to pay an upgrade fee. But now if we think about all the other things that make an Apple iMac premium:
- In-store support with people that know about Apple products
- 5K display, one of the only available in the world
- No scaling issues unlike Windows with high resolution displays
- A premium, aluminium construction & design
- No bloatware

Take a look at other all-in-ones on the market and you'll find that they lack all of the above.

 

[tarsins]

If those minor inconveniences make you angry then I'd hate to be in a car with you when you're driving.

 

[Fishrrman]

You should probably be HAPPY that you got Low Sierra instead of High Sierra.
A lot of folks are complaining about it.

And what will you do NEXT year, when the next OS -after- HS comes out?

 

[theluggage]

I don't know what website you are looking at that says it "ships" with HS,

But it doesn't say it ships with it, just that it is the operating system for the Mac.

From the iMac specs page:

(The * leads to the small print: "Some features will be available on September 25, 2017, with macOS High Sierra.")

No mention of the existence of any OS other than High Sierra. No mention of having to download and install HS. That small print could easily have read "* Ships with Sierra - High Sierra available as a free download from September 25, 2017" but, no, they made it ambiguous. For that matter - why should a "Tech Specs" page need small print footnotes? Tech Specs should be the small print.

Arguing "Aha - but it doesn't actually say 'ships'" sounds like a mother making excuses for her delinquent kid.

think about all the other things that make an Apple iMac premium:
- In-store support with people that know about Apple products

...who should know the difference between "ships with" and "available as a free 5GB download" - a question that @wardieuk claims to have asked 3 times. They should also know enough to advise obviously non-techie users not to be early adopters.

Now, I've been messing with computers since the 1980s, built my own Windows PCs, Linux machines and Hackintoshes, configured the BIOS, partitioned the drive and installed the OSs from scratch, and fixed things when they went wrong so, to me, upgrading MacOS is a no-brainer. However, I also know that upgrading the OS - even with Apple's point-and-drool interface - can be a daunting prospect for less techie users who don't have the confidence that they can fix things if they go wrong.

I also have a nice fast FTTC broadband connection that can easily cope with multiple-gigabyte downloads. Not everybody has that luxury.

We worked out that the SSD size is due to mathematics and the way they are manufactured.

Actually we worked out that it isn't mathematics because both the Apple website and the diskutil software use the same definition of 1GB. I speculated that it could be due to SSD "overprovisioning" (to be confirmed) and further speculated why the 1TB drive might not be affected by that (also, TBC). Is an average Apple customer supposed to know why their "512GB" drive only shows up as a "500GB" drive on the system? Again, the actual available space could easily have been given in the specs.

Among the great Apple attributes you forgot are "User friendly" and "Attention to detail". @wardieuk's story represents a small failure in each of those departments and, while returning the machine would be an overreaction, Apple deserves to be taken to task for it.

I remember the days when Apple were the only company who's '13"' CRT displays actually had a 13" picture, when others sold the same size as 14" based on the tube size.

Apple should be held to their own standards - or they will gradually be eroded.

 

[Mlrollin91]

From the iMac specs page:
View attachment 725049

(The * leads to the small print: "Some features will be available on September 25, 2017, with macOS High Sierra.")

No mention of the existence of any OS other than High Sierra. No mention of having to download and install HS. That small print could easily have read "* Ships with Sierra - High Sierra available as a free download from September 25, 2017" but, no, they made it ambiguous. For that matter - why should a "Tech Specs" page need small print footnotes? Tech Specs should be the small print.

Arguing "Aha - but it doesn't actually say 'ships'" sounds like a mother making excuses for her delinquent kid.

I'm sorry but no. That is the weakest argument ever. It is common sense that within 2 weeks of launch of a new OS, the likelihood that your machine has the new OS is slim to none. Obviously Apple is going to update the software page with HS because thats what they are advertising as the latest OS, and eventually machines will ship with that. But so close to after launch, its ridiculous to think the machine is going to come with HS. I bet if the OP ran the serial number, it was built in August. My 2017 MB that I purchased 8/27/17 was built 7/10/17.

 

[theluggage]

It is common sense that within 2 weeks of launch of a new OS, the likelihood that your machine has the new OS is slim to none.

It apparently wasn't "common sense" to the three tech advisers that the thread starter claims to have asked before buying. If anyone hasn't been following the progress of HS on MacRumors since June then they have no "common sense" reason to know that the final "master" was only available a few days before the public release.

A pre-built Mac sitting in a warehouse could, potentially, be booted in "target disk mode" and re-imaged with HS in a few minutes. There's no "common sense" that would tell you that Apple couldn't arrange all of their online-order machines to come with the latest OS.

If it was bought from a store then it is "common sense" for the staff to know what version of MacOS their stock machines have, and to answer questions correctly.

If HS was going to be available as a free download after 25th Sept, then it would have been "common sense" for that footnote to say "* Some features will be available on September 25, 2017, with a free download of macOS High Sierra".

If you ordered an iMac from Apple the day after the 2017 iMac was launched, then you got a 2017 iMac. Why is it "common sense" that the same shouldn't apply to software - which would be easier to arrange?

Its amazing how many excuses people are willing to make for Apple being "economical with the truth".

Lets be clear - its probably for the best that the new machine didn't come with HS (but only because Apple were a couple of release candidates short of a proper testing program) but Apple should have answered the customer's questions correctly and their website shouldn't be equivocal as to what version OS the machine ships with.

 

[ljonesj]

The 5k iMacs do not have target disk mode

 

[Apple_Robert]

[doublepost=1507788977][/doublepost]wow, it must be amazing to be you BasicGreatGuy, hiding behind that cape, totally jealous.
I have calmed down now, but you just seemed to have missed the point, I'm not that tech minded like some of you
here and 3 techs told me it shipped with HS (I have the transcripts). I spent £2500 on something and the first thing I SHOULDN'T have to do is spend 30 minutes of my life downloading a new OS I was PROMISED it shipped with that it also states it ships with on its website.
The 500 gb thing also perplexed me as a non techie person. Anyways, I will crack on with everything however I don't think Apple is what I would call a premium company at all like others that have no quibble policies or offer small compensation for mis-selling. Just very very irksome from a company claiming to be high end when they really are not. Anyways, thanks for the replies, appreciate them all.

You said nothing about not being tech savvy, or not knowing how to perform an OS upgrade in your opening post. All you did was complain and blame Apple that you are being inconvenienced. Trying to turn the tables on me, and make it as if I posted something that wasn't apropos in my first response isn't going to work.

You aren't a victim so stop posting like one.

 

[Wondermutt]

I get your frustration, they assured you (three times) something was going to happen, it did not. I also think it's understandable for someone to not necessarily know that 512gb=500gb. There was a time when I knew zilch about computer computers and would've been surprised about this as well.

The OP came here asking honest questions out of frustration and I think wondering if something was amiss with the item he did receive. No reason to jump all over them for it.

 

[mbosse]

It apparently wasn't "common sense" to the three tech advisers that the thread starter claims to have asked before buying. If anyone hasn't been following the progress of HS on MacRumors since June then they have no "common sense" reason to know that the final "master" was only available a few days before the public release.

A pre-built Mac sitting in a warehouse could, potentially, be booted in "target disk mode" and re-imaged with HS in a few minutes. There's no "common sense" that would tell you that Apple couldn't arrange all of their online-order machines to come with the latest OS.

If it was bought from a store then it is "common sense" for the staff to know what version of MacOS their stock machines have, and to answer questions correctly.

If HS was going to be available as a free download after 25th Sept, then it would have been "common sense" for that footnote to say "* Some features will be available on September 25, 2017, with a free download of macOS High Sierra".

If you ordered an iMac from Apple the day after the 2017 iMac was launched, then you got a 2017 iMac. Why is it "common sense" that the same shouldn't apply to software - which would be easier to arrange?

Its amazing how many excuses people are willing to make for Apple being "economical with the truth".

Lets be clear - its probably for the best that the new machine didn't come with HS (but only because Apple were a couple of release candidates short of a proper testing program) but Apple should have answered the customer's questions correctly and their website shouldn't be equivocal as to what version OS the machine ships with.

There are two very much unresolved points here: the OP states that he had asked '3 seperate tech guru's', but we have not idea (unless I missed):

1. whether this was Apple's Tech Support
2. whether he ordered the iMac directly from Apple, and not from a retailer

Unless we have this information I think its moot to blame Apple. If all that happened at an Apple retailer than its this one to blame, not Apple.

Best,
Magnus

 

[theluggage]

The 5k iMacs do not have target disk mode

Are you sure? I don't have a suitable TB3 cable to test it but the "Startup in target disk mode" option is there in the "Startup Disk" pref pane. Perhaps you're thinking of target display mode...?

Unless we have this information I think its moot to blame Apple.

True - this is the internet so trolls are always a possibility.

However, plenty of people here are quite happy to assume (even calling it "common sense") that a new iMac will probably still come with Sierra - in which case Apple's website is, well, less than 100% transparent. SSDs sold as 256 or 512 GB turning out to be 250 or 500GB respectively seems to be real, too (if we are talking about baked-in overprovisioning invisible to the OS then including that in the advertised capacity is somewhat economical with the truth).

 

[ljonesj]

Yeah it’s still there for the iMacs that can do target but it’s the way the screens are driven in the 5k that target was removed

 

[Sheza]

Yeah it’s still there for the iMacs that can do target but it’s the way the screens are driven in the 5k that target was removed

Screens?

You said target disk mode, not target display mode

 

[ljonesj]

Screens?

You said target disk mode, not target display mode

It’s the way it accessesthey took both out cause of the way it interfaces with the 5k display