Quick question for storage in nMP (for musician)

[cinealta]

I use Cubase but why don't you see the need for RAID0 even if just for read? I mean 2000 MB/s (4 SSDs) is much faster than 500 MB/s (single drive)?

How fast does your actual sample library stream at? Can you load it into RAM? Why pay for unnecessary bandwidth if you can invest in RAM and load & stream from there?

Also, you sure you want to buy a new Mac Pro for Cubase? You can run that on a PC which may even be a better port. Logic Pro requires Mac Pro. The dual high-end graphics cards in the new Mac Pro will not help with digital audio processing.

 

[theSeb]

I use Cubase but why don't you see the need for RAID0 even if just for read? I mean 2000 MB/s (4 SSDs) is much faster than 500 MB/s (single drive)?

Indeed. But if I put a Trabant on the Autobahn, it does not mean that I'll be able to drive at 280 km/h. It will still battle to break 90 km/h. Will Cubase need to read at more than 500 MB/s? Can the application you use actually consume (or create) data that quickly? That is a lot of data and I struggle to see how an application like Cubase would possibly be bottlenecked by anything capable of 500 MB/s.

This is a Trabant, in case you have no idea what I am talking about

As you can see it will not be able to fully utilise that amazingly fast Autobahn.

 

[deconstruct60]

I wouldn't use SSDs to record to. AFAIK, neither OSX nor TRIM support garbage collection on external SSDs.

Not particularly correct. The presumption here is that there is some RAID, USB, or non SATA controller here "eating" the TRIM commands and not passing them along. None of that is necessary for external SSDs. That has far more to do with the external peripherals specific implementations than of Mac external expansion.

Thunderbolt to a JBOD SATA port multiplier isn't going to filter out anything. RAID controllers don't have to eat TRIM. That says more about the age of and lack of awareness of the RAID controller than out of necessity.

There have been numerous reports of SSDs, used for recording (constant writes) slowing down over time.

TRIM, or lack of it, isn't necessarily the root cause of that. There are several factors that could go into that.

Only people I know who use SSDs for recording consider SSDs disposable

Over the long term they are disposable since they will wear out. These are "solid state" as in there are no permanent state changes accumulating over time. SSDs wear out.

and simply replace every 6 mos or so.

That is more an issue of dubious Flash controllers inside the SSDs than of connections if "dying" or "aging" that quickly.

 

[deconstruct60]

By far the best solution would be a Promise Pegasus2 R4 (driveless) for $699...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/H...s2-r4-diskless-4bay-thunderbolt-2-raid-system

If looking at just 2.5" SSDs then the J4 is better.


http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Promise Technology/PRJ4USOB/

The difference in price will pay for at least one SSD.

Still not sure where 2-3 TB sample libraries are necessary. App 1 , 2, and 3 onto individual 500-1TB drives perhaps but globbed into one big giant pile? Probably not really buying much with that.

Don't even consider anything else if you want to max out a set of 4 SSDs. It will be wicked fast.

Capacity more so than space seems to be the issue here. Trying to push too far past the 500GB comfort zone of current Flash capacity technology shots prices up non-linearly. If can store 4 smaller "piles of stuff" on 4 drives then it can be more cost effective. Striping RAID to spread the I/O ops load probably isn't necessary. Since SSDs are already wicked fast in this space if don't clog them with too much tangential workload.

 

[VirtualRain]

If looking at just 2.5" SSDs then the J4 is better.


http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Promise Technology/PRJ4USOB/

The difference in price will pay for at least one SSD.

Still not sure where 2-3 TB sample libraries are necessary. App 1 , 2, and 3 onto individual 500-1TB drives perhaps but globbed into one big giant pile? Probably not really buying much with that.

The J4 is TB1 and tops out at around 750GB/s (according to Promise) which doesn't even let you get the most out of two SSDs in RAID0, never mind four. The Pegaus2 is more expensive, but with TB2 should give you access to the full x4 PCIe 2.0 bandwidth which is perfect for four SSDs in RAID0.

 

[deconstruct60]

The J4 is TB1 and tops out at around 750GB/s (according to Promise) which doesn't even let you get the most out of two SSDs in RAID0, never mind four.

So far there is about zero back up to needing more than 500GB/s to load samples. The problem if far more "have big bulky library" far more than disk access is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too slow.

TB v1 still works on TB v2 networks. Stuff down stream is limited to TB v1 but upstream to the system it is not a problem. If you can put onto a completely separate daisy chain even less of a problem.

The notion that Mac Pro 2013 folks can only buy TB v2 stuff is whacked. ? Deeply whacked. There are lots of TB v1 devices that are still quite useful for broad spectrum of folks. This being one of them.

but with TB2 should give you access to the full x4 PCIe 2.0 bandwidth which is perfect for four SSDs in RAID0.

Actually it doesn't (closer to x3 ). And again, isn't a demonstrated issue for this problem context.

Sinking money into storage that could be put into RAM or more cores would likely have bigger systemic impact.

 

[VirtualRain]

So far there is about zero back up to needing more than 500GB/s to load samples. The problem if far more "have big bulky library" far more than disk access is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too slow.

TB v1 still works on TB v2 networks. Stuff down stream is limited to TB v1 but upstream to the system it is not a problem. If you can put onto a completely separate daisy chain even less of a problem.

The notion that Mac Pro 2013 folks can only buy TB v2 stuff is whacked. ? Deeply whacked. There are lots of TB v1 devices that are still quite useful for broad spectrum of folks. This being one of them.



Actually it doesn't (closer to x3 ). And again, isn't a demonstrated issue for this problem context.

Sinking money into storage that could be put into RAM or more cores would likely have bigger systemic impact.

While it may do the trick in this particular case, in general I just don't think the J4 is a good solution for SSDs. It's perfect for 7200RPM 2.5" drives, but I wouldn't recommend it for SSD usage. I would stand by my recommendation that the ultimate solution for BYOD SSDs is the Pegasus2 R4 diskless.

EDIT: Adding the J4 to the list of options you end up with... (you can see the bang for the buck is not great)...

4x 1TB SSDs in Pegasus2 R4 costs $3000 and provides 2000 MB/s (theoretical ~ 1500MB/s actual?)
4x 1TB SSDs in Promise J4 costs $2700 and provides 750 MB/s
2x 2TB WD VR Duos costs $1100 and provides 700 MB/s
1x 4TB WD TB Duo costs $500 and provides 230 MB/s

 

[spaz8]

Lots of great info on here guys.

I too have mostly heard great things about the Promise products, and the reviews show them at the top when it comes to performance. My drobo is dog slow with FW800 and looks like thats still the case with the new USB3 one.

I have a question. I'm looking at the Pegasus 1 and 2 R4 systems, and thinking I'd rather put it in Raid 10 .. instead of the default raid 5 state it arrives in.

I am guessing I will get better performance out of raid 10..but have 1/3 less storage capacity. Is that performance gain needless with TB2? As in I will see no real-world perfomance gain in raid 10 over raid 5 or 6 .. I'll just lose HD space? Assuming I have 4x 7200 rpm HDD's in the box.

Great link btw.
https://www.icc-usa.com/raid-calculator

 

[VirtualRain]

Lots of great info on here guys.

I too have mostly heard great things about the Promise products, and the reviews show them at the top when it comes to performance. My drobo is dog slow with FW800 and looks like thats still the case with the new USB3 one.

I have a question. I'm looking at the Pegasus 1 and 2 R4 systems, and thinking I'd rather put it in Raid 10 .. instead of the default raid 5 state it arrives in.

I am guessing I will get better performance out of raid 10..but have 1/3 less storage capacity. Is that performance gain needless with TB2? As in I will see no real-world perfomance gain in raid 10 over raid 5 or 6 .. I'll just lose HD space? Assuming I have 4x 7200 rpm HDD's in the box.

Great link btw.
https://www.icc-usa.com/raid-calculator

RAID10 should be faster than RAID5... no parity hit on writes and stripping performance on both reads and writes. However, why not just RAID0 the whole stack for 4x the performance and all the space (assuming you have a backup solution).

 

[spaz8]

RAID10 should be faster than RAID5... no parity hit on writes and stripping performance on both reads and writes. However, why not just RAID0 the whole stack for 4x the performance and all the space (assuming you have a backup solution).

This would do double duty as a media drive and backup of that media. Which is why I was looking at RAID 5,6,10.

Just wondering if at Raid 10 I'm getting 1000 MB/s and at Raid 5 I'm getting a 1/3 more storage space at 950 MB/s.

 

[JesperA]

This would do double duty as a media drive and backup of that media.

Media storage and backup of the same media, on the same system? Can´t see the point of that.

 

[theSeb]

RAID10 should be faster than RAID5... no parity hit on writes and stripping performance on both reads and writes. However, why not just RAID0 the whole stack for 4x the performance and all the space (assuming you have a backup solution).

Look at the 3rd table on this page

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4489/promise-pegasus-r6-mac-thunderbolt-review/6

The difference between RAID 0 and RAID 5 is not quite as large as most people think. RAID 10 would be somewhere in between and is especially faster than 5 in write performance. But you get less capacity with RAID 10.

 

[aLfR3dd]

Thanks for all the comments so far, I guess I go with what I can afford once i choose the right configuration of my MP.

Cubase runs great on PC but I'm done dealing with Windows

 

[theSeb]

This would do double duty as a media drive and backup of that media. Which is why I was looking at RAID 5,6,10.

RAID 1 or RAID 10 is not a substitute for a back up. No RAID solution is a backup substitute. What happens if a power surge affects the whole array? You need to rethink your storage/backup solution in my opinion.

 

[VirtualRain]

This would do double duty as a media drive and backup of that media. Which is why I was looking at RAID 5,6,10.

I see. If it's data you're working with, I would be tempted to set it up as two separate RAID0 arrays and use something like Time Machine or another backup program.

The problem with the redundancy of RAID10 and RAID5 is that it's just that... redundancy... not a backup... so anything stupid you do or any corruption your app accidentally adds, affects both your live data and your redundant copy immediately. With some kind of non real-time backup scheme or Time Machine, if you screw up your live data, you can restore it from the backup.

If it's just your media library, and a lost file can be downloaded again from iTunes or recreated from the original media, then I probably wouldn't bother with any RAID as it's a waste of space for little added protection.

 

[theSeb]

I see. I would be tempted to set it up as two separate RAID0 arrays and use something like Time Machine or another backup program.

The problem with the redundancy of RAID10 and RAID5 is that anything stupid you do or any corruption your app accidentally adds, affects both your live data and your redundant copy immediately. With some kind of non real-time backup scheme or Time Machine, if you screw up your live data, you can restore it from the backup.

+1. Another good point against "RAID as a backup"

 

[JesperA]

With some kind of non real-time backup scheme or Time Machine, if you screw up your live data, you can restore it from the backup.

Yep, if not the PSU dies, if not some of the electronics inside the raid system fries the harddrives (like mine did), if not the array get corrupted etc etc, there is so much that can go wrong that will kill both the live and backup data. Cant think of anything riskier than having live data and "backup data" on the same system.

 

[VirtualRain]

Yep, if not the PSU dies, if not some of the electronics inside the raid system fries the harddrives (like mine did), if not the array get corrupted etc etc, there is so much that can go wrong that will kill both the live and backup data. Cant think of anything riskier than having live data and "backup data" on the same system.

Yeah, it can be risky, but in this case, where you need to spend $600 on a TB enclosure, I can forgive someone for wanting to use all the bays like this.

The ideal solution would probably a separate NAS for backups, but that's added money.

 

[spaz8]

RAID 1 or RAID 10 is not a substitute for a back up. No RAID solution is a backup substitute. What happens if a power surge affects the whole array? You need to rethink your storage/backup solution in my opinion.

Damn. Well right now i have 4 internal HDD's in my MP.. and a Drobo with 4 HDD's that is just a backup of it all under time machine.

I hadn't considered having to get a 2nd external HD enclosure

I'm kinda missing the point of the Pegasus r4.. with its hardware raid that comes in raid 5..if it is only used at as raid0 big fast HDD with no redundancy.. or as just a fast copy of other media... I might as well just get a J4.. and mini-drobo.

So Raid 5, 6 is solely to be able to replace individual drives as they fail.. with the assumption something else is backing up that raid 5 array.

 

[theSeb]

Damn. Well right now i have 4 internal HDD's in my MP.. and a Drobo with 4 HDD's that is just a backup of it all under time machine.

I hadn't considered having to get a 2nd external HD enclosure

I'm kinda missing the point of the Pegasus r4.. with its hardware raid that comes in raid 5..if it is only used at as raid0 big fast HDD with no redundancy.. or as just a fast copy of other media... I might as well just get a J4.. and mini-drobo.

So Raid 5, 6 is solely to be able to replace individual drives as they fail.. with the assumption something else is backing up that raid 5 array.

In that case I would get the diskless R4 (2) and put the internal drives into that. Then keep the Drobo as the backup. The J4 is only for 2.5" drives.

 

[spaz8]

In that case I would get the diskless R4 (2) and put the internal drives into that. Then keep the Drobo as the backup. The J4 is only for 2.5" drives.

I was only considering the diskless R4.. I can config it much cheaper.. could set it up as a 16TB for what they ask for the 8TB one.

Thats a good idea.. I didn't realize there was a TB to FW800 cable till I just looked now.

Now to see if the my drobo is 10.9 compatible.

 

[fastlanephil]

Thanks for all the comments so far, I guess I go with what I can afford once i choose the right configuration of my MP.

Cubase runs great on PC but I'm done dealing with Windows

You should check out Vienna Ensemble Pro if you want to eliminate load times for your orchestral sample libraries. You can have your most used instrument samples always loaded and available.

 

[propower]

Sample libraries rarely change so for backup easy to use NAS or similar and refresh only when necessary.

FWIW: I went with the Blackmagic Multidock. It is SATA II internal so tops out on single disk SSD reads of 380MB/s. So 3.8GB of samples - 10 seconds (fast enough for me )... I have a 1TB SSD for my samples and that is enough for me - 3-4TB is another story though! I tested the BM in Raid1 and Raid0 and got 700MB/s reads for two SSDs.

For the ultimate in speed today - and big libraries like yours - R4,6 or 8 V2 is the ticket. Maybe R8 with 2TB drives RAID pairs (or more) for speed is what will work... Or 8 1TB SSDs set up as 4 RAID1's.... Its only money

 

[mythos]

I'm a musician myself for what it's worth I'm going with the diskless Pegasus2, which I'll use for a short while to hold the drives currently in my Mac Pro, and I'm also investing in a 6TB 2Big for TimeMachine, which I'll run in RAID 0.

(I also do some work in After Effects etc, mostly at 2K).

I also regularly backup my important files and libraries onto bare drives along with safety duplicates, and those go into a large fire-resistant safe.

I make my living through music and every now and again I need to invest in things like this. I used to invest in outboard gear but these days everything is software based and investing in this hardware is a damn sight cheaper than investing in studio hardware used to be.

 

[cinealta]

Not particularly correct.

Ok, thanks for your advice.