Thanks, I appreciate the recommendation, but not having an integrated timer in the menubar that sees when I step away and offers to remove that time, is a dealbreaker.
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Replacement for Billings Pro for Mojave
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Thanks, I appreciate the recommendation, but not having an integrated timer in the menubar that sees when I step away and offers to remove that time, is a dealbreaker.
Just wanted to let you know, I upgraded to Ventura today on my M1 Air, and everything is working with the latest version of Billings Pro! I even have it working with my convoluted self-hosting setup.
Thank you! I installed it in another volume to test and it worked for me as well. I tested every major app I use and everything worked so I went ahead and upgraded my startup volume last night and everything is working well.
Well, except for one Billings bug where clicking the triangle in the menu bar time tracker stopped working. It just gives me the drop down menu. I reported this to MarketCircle months ago and no fix yet. Doesn't sound like a big deal but when you work on multiple projects a day that's a lot of extra clicking.
What type of computer are you using? Intel or Apple Silicon? Because of my setup, I have to have Billings Pro open in Rosetta, and the menubar app is working fine for me. If you're on an Apple Silicon machine maybe try opening Billings Pro in Rosetta and see if that makes a difference?
You might know this, but if not, you can force Billings Pro (or any app for that matter) to run using Rosetta by selecting the app in the Finder and the File Menu -> Get Info (or right-click -> Get Info), and then selecting "Open using Rosetta" in the Get Info window.
I'd love to learn more about how to set this up so I don't have to rely on MarketCircle for this. I can't even get a slip restored from sync with these folks. Any info you'd be willing to share would be appreciated.
And if anyone has found a good replacement for Billings Pro that I could migrate to, please share. Thank you!
Are you using a self-hosted instance of Billings Pro (i.e. you have the old Billings Pro Server software installed on a computer) or are you using the cloud-based version? I've got a self-hosted instance which I've got figured out pretty well at this point, but haven't really utilized the cloud-based stuff (mostly cause I don't have to and don't want to pay a monthly subscription).
Yeah I would like to know about this too! I've had it with Marketcircle. Billings Pro is no longer for sale; it's not on the Mac App Store, and they are no longer excepting subscriptions. Billings Pro is not being actively developed, and they're not fixing most bugs; just ones that can keep them from charging us monthly for it. The guy said they're focusing on Daylite, exclusively. I asked their customer support to be honest with me, and that's exactly what they told me.
I don't even use anything that requires a subscription. I don't care about syncing; I mean, it's nifty, but not essential. I can always store the Billings Pro database in the cloud so multiple computers can access it. I just want to create as many invoices as I want, that's the only reason why I have to waste $10 a month on this thing. I'm basically using the free version, except I need to create a dozen invoices 12 times a year.
I've reached out for support with them multiple times over the last year and it's like pulling teeth. I reported that start/stop bug with the menubar more than a year ago and it's still there. They obviously don't want to allocate any funds to Billings Pro. (BTW I did try Rosetta but that didn't fix it, but thanks for the suggestion!)
So I'm still looking for a replacement. Every 6 months or so I try every single one of them, but they don't do what Billings Pro does. I was actually thinking of finding the old Billings app that ran without self-hosting (and I have no idea how to do self-hosting anymore because that stopped working for me years ago.) If I could get that to work, I'd be pretty happy, But I'd be worried that any macOS update could break it at any time, and I'd be out of luck.
Sometimes I wish I would have become a coder instead of a designer so I could create the app we need myself lol.
I'm using the $5/month cloud option and I wish I could go back to the regular app on my hard drive where I could just make unlimited invoices, it was much better then. I'm also having the start/stop bug, and I also reported a bug where, when you want to link a slip to a project by clicking "Link to Project" from the menu bar...all the type is white on white, so you can't see it until you highlight it...I sent them multiple examples, they didn't fix it. Today I accidentally deleted a couple log entries on a slip...which, of course, you can't undo. So I contacted them to see if I could get the slip restored (it wasn't a new slip)...nope. They can't do that. So, is there any hope for being able to host the DB for this version (1.7.2) on my own so I'm not hampered by the 5-invoice limit?
I never upgraded to Billings Pro, I stayed on the regular Billings 3 which did everything I needed. I actually still have my trusty iMac from 2010 around, which stayed on 10.12, and still runs Billings. However, I just got a new M2 Mac mini, that's just about perfect for everything but, since it's on macOS 13 Ventura, won't run Billings 3 ... as it's a 32bit app.
I tried getting a virtual machine set up just for this app, but so far UTM is giving me a headache. I am trying to use Snow Leopard as the base OS as this was the best one every based on my own experience.
Maybe someone has gotten UTM to properly run a VM of Snow Leopard?
I tried getting a virtual machine set up just for this app, but so far UTM is giving me a headache. I am trying to use Snow Leopard as the base OS as this was the best one every based on my own experience.
Maybe someone has gotten UTM to properly run a VM of Snow Leopard?
UTM, IMHO, is a great big bag of hurt. I can get it to run, then it mysteriously stops and Neds to be reinstalled and a new VM created. I'd give Parallels or Fusion a try...
At the risk of flogging a dead horse here ...
I feel the pain of all those who have contributed to this discussion. As every negative thing said about Billings Pro and MarketCircle mirrors my own experience.
Every year or so I try to find a Billings Pro replacement. It's the only software subscription I have, as I detest paying monthly for software. That's likely showing my age ... as I know it's just the normal and accepted way things are done now. I would actually be kind of okay with paying MarketCircle monthly, if they were actually developing (or simply fixing) the software. But, as you all know, they are not. It has quirks, bugs, and design issues that should be resolved. But Billings Pro literally is a dead horse, which they are charging me monthly to ride on.
Anyway ...
Before I dive into researching what's now on the market for macOS replacements for Billings Pro, and since over a year's gone by since the last post ... I thought I'd ask here if anyone has found something that meets there Billings Pro replacement needs?
Thanks very much ...
Jonathan
I feel the pain of all those who have contributed to this discussion. As every negative thing said about Billings Pro and MarketCircle mirrors my own experience.
Every year or so I try to find a Billings Pro replacement. It's the only software subscription I have, as I detest paying monthly for software. That's likely showing my age ... as I know it's just the normal and accepted way things are done now. I would actually be kind of okay with paying MarketCircle monthly, if they were actually developing (or simply fixing) the software. But, as you all know, they are not. It has quirks, bugs, and design issues that should be resolved. But Billings Pro literally is a dead horse, which they are charging me monthly to ride on.
Anyway ...
Before I dive into researching what's now on the market for macOS replacements for Billings Pro, and since over a year's gone by since the last post ... I thought I'd ask here if anyone has found something that meets there Billings Pro replacement needs?
Thanks very much ...
Jonathan
Unfortunately I haven’t found anything quite as robust or useful as Billings Pro (despite the issues). I’ve reverted to running things in a High Sierra virtual machine. Which works well, but is kinda clunky.
Oh I will never stop flogging this horse. Every year I just become angrier about Marketcircle knowing that they have us and there's nothing we can do about it, while they won't life a finger or spend a dime to improve the software. They should, at the very least, cut our sub prices in half as a thank you for putting up with literally zero bug fixes, updates, or even dark mode which was introduced system wide in macOS six years ago. Then, to rub salt in the wound, multiple times a week I receive Marketcircle emails informing me that they've fixed yet another Daylite-related outage, meanwhile I haven't even been able to click Billings Pro's menubar button to start or stop a timer since well before COVID.
As far as I'm concerned that is unforgivable.
Similar to Comcast internet in my area; I'm stuck with them until a competitor comes along. Where I live it's either A) pay too much for reasonably fast download speeds, offensively slow upload speeds, and the worst customer service on the planet, or B) unusable, slow DSL. There are no other options.
Sorry for the rant but I too am coming up on my yearly "waste a day and a half researching/trying every alternative" and it gets more infuriating every time. I cannot wait until one of us finally finds a replacement for Billings Pro so we can cancel our subscriptions with extreme prejudice. lol
This reminds me of the bad old days when folks in SMBs would run a Windows VM of Quickbooks...just because they felt chained to QB. Painful.
While this was 2 years ago...I should still point out that Wave is still doing great, under active development, and is more flexible even in the limited free version.
I get that there is a group of folks that still think cloud=bad. But this thread illustrates that installed software vs. cloud has essentially the same problem: You have to depend on the developer eventually.
The "man in the park giving kids candy" is not fair or accurate. A more accurate analogy: Wave is like free samples at Costco. They give stuff away as part of a successful business model.
Their revenue is from CC processing, which is the built-in billing. They cut out the middleman (merchant bank) and do it in-house, so they make money on free accounts via processing fees. Same as Square. Millions use Square, most are very happy compared to traditional systems, so not a weird or sketchy business model.
Now...is that more or less sketchy than paying a subscription for software that is never updated? Again, I would pick the Wave model over MarketCircle all day long. No regrets years later as a user. And the free version is feature-rich enough to give it a try and risk zero except your time.
Wave is a good fit for the OP's original question, even in the free Starter Plan. for all but time tracking. I see they do offer some advice about time tracking, so (if it were me) I would find the time tracking app that I really like and use that, and then use the Wave Starter Plan for billing, accounting, and reports.
Guilty as charged. I did that back in the day. Quickbooks was great back when I was using it for my business at that time (late 1990s, early 2000s). But it failed to keep up with advancements, so I moved on.
I've used Wave for many years (free version) for handling subscription invoicing (mostly hosting and domain name registrations, sold to my clients).
But I'd never considered I could use it as a task / project timer. Will look into that.
... Okay, I'm further into reading your message ... I see you're suggesting combining it with an offline task / project timer. Yeah, I can see how that would work. But I do very much like having my timer and invoicing / reporting system combined.
So, I've spent some hours yesterday looking into current Billings Pro (BP) replacement options.
It seems cloud-based is almost impossible to avoid. But, considering I pay MarketCircle $10 a month for a cloud-dependant service, I am seriously considering redirecting that amount of money (ideally less) to a company that's actively developing their software, and actively supporting users, resolving bugs, etc.
Key features I personally find necessities in Billings are below. I mention these because they may differ from what other folk want in a BP replacement:
1. Has a desktop (menubar) timer (at least), which operates offline.
2. The timer detects when I am inactive, and allows for removing that period from the time log (it's not uncommon for me to leave the timer running by mistake, such as when I'm go to have a pee, and then I get busy with something away from the computer).
3. Has reporting that covers tasks (slips) and associated time and cost on a project level. I send these reports to clients so they can see where their yet-to-be-invoiced project costs are currently at.
4. Has reporting that shows me unpaid invoices and their totals.
5. It absolutely must support multi-currency (I have clients in many countries) on the lower cost plan.
6. It must support setting hourly rates on a per customer and per project level. Ideally on a per slip / task level too, but could live without that.
7. (ADDED 20240808) Needs to support comments/notes on timer items / slips. I write out details of what was done in that line-item, and this ends up on invoice and job reports.
There are numerous decent looking options that are $15+ a month. I'm not yet willing to spend that kind of dosh on handling invoices. Of the less inexpensive options I've briefly looked into, here's my short-list:
a. Toggl Track, Starter Plan — https://toggl.com/track/pricing/#compare-plans —
Notes / Thoughts:
- Has desktop, mobile, and web apps.
- Free plan doesn't support "Billable rates" (as they call them), which is requirement #6. Billable Rates is also required for multi-currency support (#5).
- So for me, minimal plan is Starter plan, at $10 / month ($9 if paid yearly). So that's on parr with BP.
- Has desktop timer, and menu bar timer. It's intuitive and nice to work with. Can add projects and clients on the fly. Can Tag slips/tasks/timers (whatever we call them).
- Desktop timer has "Idle" related settings (req. #2).
I've not yet tested if it will offer to automatically deduct the idle time, or to continue without deduction (in the way Billings Pro does).
I've now tested this, and it's very good. Superior to BP. Impressed. Screenshot:
I've not had time to look into Toggl's reporting features (requirement #3 & #4).
I'll check out their reporting over the weekend.
20240808 - I've had to add #7h requirement to my list, after discovering the absence of this feature (in Toggl). #7 - Ability to add notes to timer items (slips in BP). There appears to be no way to do this in Toggl.
B. Clockify — https://clockify.me/pricing
- Has desktop, mobile, and web apps.
- Minimal plan that meats some of my requirements (e.g. #5) is Pro Plan. $9.99 / mth (or $7.99 / mth paid annually). On parr with BP.
- Can "Detect idle time" (req. #2). Haven't tested it, so can't say if it's as sophisticated as BP or Toggl.
- Has desktop timer, and menu bar timer. Which works well (req. #1). Can add projects and clients on the fly. Can Tag slips/tasks/timers.
- Haven't dug any deeper than this.
C. Timecamp.
- Looks like I'd need Ultimate Plan. $7.99/mo billed annually, or $10.99 month-to-month.
- Appears to support multiple currencies.
- Appears to support client and project specific rates ("Billable Rates").
- Haven't yet had time to test out its desktop app. Haven't tested online system either.
D. Harvest — https://www.getharvest.com/pricing — $10.99 / month
- Has desktop, mobile, and web apps.
- Stripe and Paypal integration for online invoice payments.
- Has currency support (details)
- Has idle time handling (details)
- Has good handling of "Billable Rates" (details)
E. Kimai — https://www.kimai.org/en/pricing
- Relatively low cost "open source" solution. Can self-host, or paid (low cost) hosting.
- Need a separate app for desktop timer (here). Detects idle time. Has free and paid version (I'm not sure which features are locked in free version).
- Will investigate further over the weekend.
F. InvoiceNinja — Self-hosted (free), or Paid option, $10 / month (paid yearly)
I set InvoiceNinja up as a self-hosted app some years ago for a non-profit. Although it's an excellent open source invoicing, billing, etc., application ... At that time it was not something I would have considered as a potential replacement for BP, as it isn't task timing focused enough for me. However, just now I've taken another look at it. Seems it's improved considerably from when I last used it.
Even with latest release, the one area it's a bit deficient is the timer side of things. It has a desktop app, but this is essentially a portal to the web side of things. So the timer is limited to being within the app interface. No dedicated timer app (like Toggl, Clockify, etc.), and no menu bar timer interface. It does have a Chome extension which will pull the timer functions into a browser sidebar. As most of my work is web development, there's a slight chance I could live with that.
I'm going to play with this one more, over my increasingly packed weekend.
H. Zoho Invoice --- I have been using a free version of Zoho Books (after a free year on their paid Books ... long story). I use it for online billing of subscription items (hosting, domain names, etc.). Yesterday I took a look into their Invoice application. It's free, and very comprehensive. It includes a basic job timer. But it's nothing like the timer in BP or some of the above applications. But, Zoho Invoice is for sure worth checking out as it may be a good fit in certain usage scenarios.
Okay ... that's it from me on my findings thus far. I'll update and add to the above if new findings come to light.
Based on of my findings thus far ... I am confident I might ditch BP in the very near future. It doesn't look like I'll save much in $$ terms, although there's some savings if I commit to an annual payment. Except perhaps with Kimai, which is only a few Euro a month on cloud hosted option, but I have no idea what it's like as I've not tested it; and, also with self-hosted InvoiceNinja, if I determine I can live with its limited timer (not likely).
My biggest consideration now, if I jump ship, is the loss of time migrating all my data over. I have many years of clients and projects in BP. Will have to think more about that aspect of switching.
It seems cloud-based is almost impossible to avoid. But, considering I pay MarketCircle $10 a month for a cloud-dependant service, I am seriously considering redirecting that amount of money (ideally less) to a company that's actively developing their software, and actively supporting users, resolving bugs, etc.
Key features I personally find necessities in Billings are below. I mention these because they may differ from what other folk want in a BP replacement:
1. Has a desktop (menubar) timer (at least), which operates offline.
2. The timer detects when I am inactive, and allows for removing that period from the time log (it's not uncommon for me to leave the timer running by mistake, such as when I'm go to have a pee, and then I get busy with something away from the computer).
3. Has reporting that covers tasks (slips) and associated time and cost on a project level. I send these reports to clients so they can see where their yet-to-be-invoiced project costs are currently at.
4. Has reporting that shows me unpaid invoices and their totals.
5. It absolutely must support multi-currency (I have clients in many countries) on the lower cost plan.
6. It must support setting hourly rates on a per customer and per project level. Ideally on a per slip / task level too, but could live without that.
7. (ADDED 20240808) Needs to support comments/notes on timer items / slips. I write out details of what was done in that line-item, and this ends up on invoice and job reports.
There are numerous decent looking options that are $15+ a month. I'm not yet willing to spend that kind of dosh on handling invoices. Of the less inexpensive options I've briefly looked into, here's my short-list:
a. Toggl Track, Starter Plan — https://toggl.com/track/pricing/#compare-plans —
Notes / Thoughts:
- Has desktop, mobile, and web apps.
- Free plan doesn't support "Billable rates" (as they call them), which is requirement #6. Billable Rates is also required for multi-currency support (#5).
- So for me, minimal plan is Starter plan, at $10 / month ($9 if paid yearly). So that's on parr with BP.
- Has desktop timer, and menu bar timer. It's intuitive and nice to work with. Can add projects and clients on the fly. Can Tag slips/tasks/timers (whatever we call them).
- Desktop timer has "Idle" related settings (req. #2).
I've now tested this, and it's very good. Superior to BP. Impressed. Screenshot:
I've not had time to look into Toggl's reporting features (requirement #3 & #4).
I'll check out their reporting over the weekend.
20240808 - I've had to add #7h requirement to my list, after discovering the absence of this feature (in Toggl). #7 - Ability to add notes to timer items (slips in BP). There appears to be no way to do this in Toggl.
B. Clockify — https://clockify.me/pricing
- Has desktop, mobile, and web apps.
- Minimal plan that meats some of my requirements (e.g. #5) is Pro Plan. $9.99 / mth (or $7.99 / mth paid annually). On parr with BP.
- Can "Detect idle time" (req. #2). Haven't tested it, so can't say if it's as sophisticated as BP or Toggl.
- Has desktop timer, and menu bar timer. Which works well (req. #1). Can add projects and clients on the fly. Can Tag slips/tasks/timers.
- Haven't dug any deeper than this.
C. Timecamp.
- Looks like I'd need Ultimate Plan. $7.99/mo billed annually, or $10.99 month-to-month.
- Appears to support multiple currencies.
- Appears to support client and project specific rates ("Billable Rates").
- Haven't yet had time to test out its desktop app. Haven't tested online system either.
D. Harvest — https://www.getharvest.com/pricing — $10.99 / month
- Has desktop, mobile, and web apps.
- Stripe and Paypal integration for online invoice payments.
- Has currency support (details)
- Has idle time handling (details)
- Has good handling of "Billable Rates" (details)
E. Kimai — https://www.kimai.org/en/pricing
- Relatively low cost "open source" solution. Can self-host, or paid (low cost) hosting.
- Need a separate app for desktop timer (here). Detects idle time. Has free and paid version (I'm not sure which features are locked in free version).
- Will investigate further over the weekend.
F. InvoiceNinja — Self-hosted (free), or Paid option, $10 / month (paid yearly)
I set InvoiceNinja up as a self-hosted app some years ago for a non-profit. Although it's an excellent open source invoicing, billing, etc., application ... At that time it was not something I would have considered as a potential replacement for BP, as it isn't task timing focused enough for me. However, just now I've taken another look at it. Seems it's improved considerably from when I last used it.
Even with latest release, the one area it's a bit deficient is the timer side of things. It has a desktop app, but this is essentially a portal to the web side of things. So the timer is limited to being within the app interface. No dedicated timer app (like Toggl, Clockify, etc.), and no menu bar timer interface. It does have a Chome extension which will pull the timer functions into a browser sidebar. As most of my work is web development, there's a slight chance I could live with that.
I'm going to play with this one more, over my increasingly packed weekend.
H. Zoho Invoice --- I have been using a free version of Zoho Books (after a free year on their paid Books ... long story). I use it for online billing of subscription items (hosting, domain names, etc.). Yesterday I took a look into their Invoice application. It's free, and very comprehensive. It includes a basic job timer. But it's nothing like the timer in BP or some of the above applications. But, Zoho Invoice is for sure worth checking out as it may be a good fit in certain usage scenarios.
Okay ... that's it from me on my findings thus far. I'll update and add to the above if new findings come to light.
Based on of my findings thus far ... I am confident I might ditch BP in the very near future. It doesn't look like I'll save much in $$ terms, although there's some savings if I commit to an annual payment. Except perhaps with Kimai, which is only a few Euro a month on cloud hosted option, but I have no idea what it's like as I've not tested it; and, also with self-hosted InvoiceNinja, if I determine I can live with its limited timer (not likely).
My biggest consideration now, if I jump ship, is the loss of time migrating all my data over. I have many years of clients and projects in BP. Will have to think more about that aspect of switching.
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