MP 1,1-5,1 Safest delidding process

[jscipione]

Got a new pair of X5675. Delidded them with no damage visible to the eye. Tried them on, but wasn't able to get a chime out of them. I changed the 2,26 gig cpus back, had a bit of trouble finding the right tightness, but finally got the cMP to boot. With the x5675s I got either a steady white led light or a blinking one, but no chime. I think I tried both of them in the A slot.

Are you sure that the X5675's were working before you delidded them? Most importantly, did you flash to 5,1 first? The 4,1 won't boot with Westmere Xeons until flashed.

Now: as to delidding, a tip: after removing the lid from 4 x5675s, I think I can say that the process of the lid coming loose is not straightforward. It doesn't just snap off. Instead it seems that the solder has some elasticity and you have to go back and forth for several times with the vice, until the bond is finally loose. At least with the x5675s this seems to be the case, perhaps with others?

That was not my experience. I tightened the vice until the heat spreader popped off. I bent the heat spreader on a practice run but all the lids popped off clean. I did a pair of X5680's. The hardest part was removing all of the excess solder to get a smooth die surface afterwords.

Here is a question: with the structure of the 2009 dual tray, with delidded cpus, is it a realistic scenario that one can go so tight with the heatsink, that one can break the tray? My feeling was that when eventually I managed to get both old cpus online (as well as all the ram), I perhaps had to go tighter than I had gone with the x5675s. One of these days, I think I´ll give it another go, but would love to know more.

The way I tighten the bolts is to screw the four posts in a star pattern and then hand tighten, but don't force it. You can over-tighten and mess up the CPU socket if you tighten too hard. Inspect the cpu sockets to see if there are any bent pins as Snow Tiger suggested. You may be able to gently massage the pins back into place with a small screwdriver.

The CPU socket in my 4,1 was damaged by overtightening but with a bit of patience I've managed to get the computer working quite well.

 

[Stormageddon]

Yes, upgrade from 4,1 to 5,1 has been done. As the 2.26 gig 4 cores continue working, I suppose (?) that the pins are all right? I did look at the sockets with a magnifying glass, but could not detect anything alarming.

I can imagine very easily how one could with non-delidded cpus over tighten and create havoc in 2009 cMP. What I am uncertain is, whether when replacing the old cpus with new delidded ones, shouldn't the structure basically prevent you from going absolutely too tight? Or does it? (I by no means intend to be brutal, but am just interested in the logic of it all). Also: how come the computer can startup and not find all the ram? Are the pins for the ram connection located in such an area in the cpu, that is prone to not quite reaching the connection or what?

 

[Snow Tiger]

Yes, upgrade from 4,1 to 5,1 has been done. As the 2.26 gig 4 cores continue working, I suppose (?) that the pins are all right? I did look at the sockets with a magnifying glass, but could not detect anything alarming.

I can imagine very easily how one could with non-delidded cpus over tighten and create havoc in 2009 cMP. What I am uncertain is, whether when replacing the old cpus with new delidded ones, shouldn't the structure basically prevent you from going absolutely too tight? Or does it? (I by no means intend to be brutal, but am just interested in the logic of it all). Also: how come the computer can startup and not find all the ram? Are the pins for the ram connection located in such an area in the cpu, that is prone to not quite reaching the connection or what?

Do you have access to a caliper ? I would measure the thickness of the factory IHS-less processors and your IHS-less upgrade processors . There probably isn't going to be a difference , but you should check all the same .

When you power up your Mac with your upgrade processors , did you notice if both the CPU Heatsink booster fans are rotating at any speed ?

 

[mikeydeezy]

Are you sure that the X5675's were working before you delidded them? Most importantly, did you flash to 5,1 first? The 4,1 won't boot with Westmere Xeons until flashed.



That was not my experience. I tightened the vice until the heat spreader popped off. I bent the heat spreader on a practice run but all the lids popped off clean. I did a pair of X5680's. The hardest part was removing all of the excess solder to get a smooth die surface afterwords.



The way I tighten the bolts is to screw the four posts in a star pattern and then hand tighten, but don't force it. You can over-tighten and mess up the CPU socket if you tighten too hard. Inspect the cpu sockets to see if there are any bent pins as Snow Tiger suggested. You may be able to gently massage the pins back into place with a small screwdriver.

The CPU socket in my 4,1 was damaged by overtightening but with a bit of patience I've managed to get the computer working quite well.

View attachment 891054

Ouch. This is painful to look at. I've tightened my tray until there's solid resistance from the screws and, knock on wood, no issues so far.

Just how much force did you use when this happened? Did you tighten it as tight as you could?

 

[JedNZ]

For my delidded X5680's (I've done 4 lots of cMP 4,1 - two duals, and two single CPUs) I tighten each screw in diagonal rotation, two half-turns to begin with, with light fingers on the torx tool. I then turn them half a turn until I feel the slightest resistance, and another quarter turn at a time until I can't turn them any more with light finger pressure. Basically if I have to increased the pressure used by my fingers then I'm at the tight zone.

Light finger pressure to me is using the ends of my pointer finger and thumb on the torx tool up to the point where I would have to strengthen the pressure. Another analogy would be the tightness you might experience when screwing on the lid of a jar for the first couple of loose turns, but stopping short of the added pressure you have to use for the last couple of turns. Or the minimal soft pressure you use to close the lid on a milk container (short of it being firmly tight).

Excessive force is where you hear continuous tight, high pitched sounds. You may hear some tightness sounds up to then, however there are gaps between the sounds, which narrow as you get closer to the correct tightness.

I'll stop there! Hopefully that gives you another perceptive description.

 

[jscipione]

Ouch. This is painful to look at. I've tightened my tray until there's solid resistance from the screws and, knock on wood, no issues so far.

Just how much force did you use when this happened? Did you tighten it as tight as you could?

That was the state the machine was in when I got it so I'm not sure what happened but I assume somebody tried upgrading with lidded CPUs and overtightened them. I'm not sure it is possible to do this kind of damage with delidded cpus.

 

[Stormageddon]

When you power up your Mac with your upgrade processors , did you notice if both the CPU Heatsink booster fans are rotating at any speed ?

I believe the speeds were at a minimum. The machine started, no chime and either blinking white or steady white led. I don't recollect high fan speeds.

 

[Snow Tiger]

I believe the speeds were at a minimum. The machine started, no chime and either blinking white or steady white led. I don't recollect high fan speeds.

What's your current memory configuration ? blinking white power button light might indicate no memory or incompatible memory .

 

[Stormageddon]

What's your current memory configuration ? blinking white power button light might indicate no memory or incompatible memory .

The ram was sitting in place, and only when I put the original cpus back, I got them all back online, when I tightened the cpus (apparently) enough. Perhaps I was just not tightening enough with the x5675s.

 

[Snow Tiger]

The ram was sitting in place, and only when I put the original cpus back, I got them all back online, when I tightened the cpus (apparently) enough. Perhaps I was just not tightening enough with the x5675s.

The next time you install chips in your Tray , grab an AA flashlight and aim a narrow beam on the area between the CPU socket standoffs and their corresponding CPU heatsink fasteners . There should be no gap between them when the fasteners are fully tightened . Notice the decreasing gap as you lower the heatsink .

 

[Stormageddon]

The next time you install chips in your Tray , grab an AA flashlight and aim a narrow beam on the area between the CPU socket standoffs and their corresponding CPU heatsink fasteners . There should be no gap between them when the fasteners are fully tightened . Notice the decreasing gap as you lower the heatsink .

This was something that I gradually started to pay attention to, when I went back and forth with trying the cpus. Would it be fair to say that the right amount of tightness in relation to the gaps is: close the gaps completely and tighten up just a teeny weeny bit more?

 

[Snow Tiger]

This was something that I gradually started to pay attention to, when I went back and forth with trying the cpus. Would it be fair to say that the right amount of tightness in relation to the gaps is: close the gaps completely and tighten up just a teeny weeny bit more?

Just the opposite . Tighten them fully ( so no gaps are visible ) , then loosen each fastener by 1/4 to 1/2 of a turn of the T handle driver . Some Apple service sources give this advice and I think its a good idea since the Mac might be shipped or roughly moved at some time in the future . Over-tightening can prove quite dangerous to the socket in these situations , due to shock damage . I service and ship these Systems , so I have to be very careful .

 

[Stormageddon]

Just the opposite . Tighten them fully ( so no gaps are visible ) , then loosen each fastener by 1/4 to 1/2 of a turn of the T handle driver . Some Apple service sources give this advice and I think its a good idea since the Mac might be shipped or roughly moved at some time in the future . Over-tightening can prove quite dangerous to the socket in these situations , due to shock damage . I service and ship these Systems , so I have to be very careful .

Thanks!! This is perhaps the most clear formulation I’ve come across so far!

 

[powers74]

The safest "delidding" method of a processor is the one you never need to perform . There is no thermal benefit to using integrated heat spreader-less processors in cMPs , anyways . I exhaustively looked into it . Apple has a long history of developing mostly failed but amazingly creative methods of cooling HEDT and personal workstations . As a builder , I have to deal with and even improve Apple's factory cooling methods .

The safest way of upgrading the processors of a Dual 2009 cMP is to install off the shelf Xeons ( with factory heatspreaders still retained ) and add 2 mm nylon washers on all eight CPU heatsink standoffs , add 2 mm of thermal gap material on both heatsinks and liberate both heatsink's fan connectors so that they can be independently attached to the Tray's PCB connectors . That's it . No need to worry about damaging anything . In case you wish to get technical , there is precisely a 2.3 mm difference in thickness between the factory's processors and a retail X56xx Xeon .

You made a good choice with the upgrade processors . Cheap and powerful . I built the first Dual X5677 cMP years ago and it was used by a CAD CAM machine designing motors for construction vehicles in Texas .

this is kinda what I was thinking. I was wondering what possible advantage there could be to having them delidded other than ease of installation. You mention the 2mm thermal pads & washers, but as I measure, the thickness of the "lid" (on the 5690s I got) is only 1.2mm. Is the thickness of the lid/heat spreader more in the center?

 

[Snow Tiger]

this is kinda what I was thinking. I was wondering what possible advantage there could be to having them delidded other than ease of installation. You mention the 2mm thermal pads & washers, but as I measure, the thickness of the "lid" (on the 5690s I got) is only 1.2mm. Is the thickness of the lid/heat spreader more in the center?

Measure the thickness of both types ( DP 2009 cMP factory IHS-less and the common , retail X56xx with IHS ) of Xeon processors with a caliper . You will get a 2.3 mm difference .

 

[powers74]

Measure the thickness of both types ( DP 2009 cMP factory IHS-less and the common , retail X56xx with IHS ) of Xeon processors with a caliper . You will get a 2.3 mm difference .

Oh, like the thickness of the whole processor? OK that makes sense. I haven't taken out the originals (typing on my cMP now), so I can't really measure them, but I believe you.

So that .3mm isn't that big a deal I guess? Or is it worth laying down a tiny dab of Arctic Silver to make up the difference?

EDIT - and are the washers really needed? Did you find on Amazon?

 

[Snow Tiger]

Oh, like the thickness of the whole processor? OK that makes sense. I haven't taken out the originals (typing on my cMP now), so I can't really measure them, but I believe you.

So that .3mm isn't that big a deal I guess? Or is it worth laying down a tiny dab of Arctic Silver to make up the difference?

EDIT - and are the washers really needed? Did you find on Amazon?

Without the washers , you will destroy the pins of the sockets of your CPU Tray when you tighten the fasteners of the two CPU heatsinks .

Once the washers are in place around the standoffs , you can safely fully tighten the fasteners of the CPU heatsinks . Then , loosen each fastener by a quarter of a turn to compensate for that 0.3 mm so the Tray is safe to ship or move roughly .

I got those washers from China , they are nylon and are ESD safe . PM me with your street addy and I'll send you some .