Sandy Bridge and backlit keyboard vs NVIDIA GeForce 320M?

[Oppressed]

I doubt the next MBA will have a backlit keyboard for several reasons including the power consumption that it would take and the less battery life it would mean. Also it was stated that it is a key feature on the Pro and they need a reason for it to seem "Pro". Who would choose a thicker/heavier computer if you could get the thinner lighter computer with the same features? Minus the optical drive of course.

The argument of Sandy Bridge making up for the GPU is more or less not true and like always it depends on what the computer is used for. CPU intensive applications? Its an upgrade. Gaming? Its a downgrade. Light surfing? No change.

And if one person comments on "Gaming on MBA? lol" get over it. People like myself enjoy playing games on business trips and on the sofa. My 11 ultimate runs WoW like a Pro. (Pun intended)

 

[Cerano]

You guys are forgetting that the LV and ULV version of the HD3000 is underclocked compared to the normal voltage version. So while the normal ones are the same as the 320M, the underclocked LV and ULV ones are definitely not going to match up to the 320M.

even the normal ones cant match up to the 320m esp in windows so i wonder how a 6EU underclocked/volted HD3000 would be able to catch up

 

[Hellhammer]

even the normal ones cant match up to the 320m esp in windows so i wonder how a 6EU underclocked/volted HD3000 would be able to catch up

All mobile CPUs have Intel HD 3000 which has 12 EUs.

 

[TrollToddington]

My MBA Ultimate is perfect for me right now as my sole working machine. This is simply a super balanced laptop for those seeking mobility and reasonable performance. No need for me to fix what's not broken right now.

I won't be jumping in on a SB+HD3000 upgrade, so I will pass on the next update until Ivy comes out (as long as it's paired with a decent GPU and not with a lame HD3000-like).

Why does everybody repeat the mantra 'Ivy Bridge'? Will it make the Intel's HD 3000 perform better in some kind of mysterious magical way? Or do you expect that by the time IB is released Intel will have developed a new, presumably better, IGP? Shall we expect the same comments "Intel IGP sucks I'm gonna skip IB and wait for whatever-bridge" again next year?

I am aware that, of all computers Apple produces, the MBA will suffer the most from advancements of technology because it is not upgradeable. So, if there are some radical improvements that IB will introduce that I might be interested in I will join the camp of people who will wait. The present 11" can't do the job I like it to, I need a faster processor but I like the form of 11" MBA.

 

[Cerano]

All mobile CPUs have Intel HD 3000 which has 12 EUs.

My apologies i meant 12 accidentally typed 6

 

[Cerano]

Why does everybody repeat the mantra 'Ivy Bridge'? Will it make the Intel's HD 3000 perform better in some kind of mysterious magical way? Or do you expect that by the time IB is released Intel will have developed a new, presumably better, IGP? Shall we expect the same comments "Intel IGP sucks I'm gonna skip IB and wait for whatever-bridge" again next year?

I am aware that, of all computers Apple produces, the MBA will suffer the most from advancements of technology because it is not upgradeable. So, if there are some radical improvements that IB will introduce that I might be interested in I will join the camp of people who will wait. The present 11" can't do the job I like it to, I need a faster processor but I like the form of 11" MBA.

because yes its certain that by ivy bridge, a better igp would be available but also you can look at it from another pov wherein even a sandybridge CPU upgrade is not substantial enough

 

[robeddie]

Also it was stated that it is a key feature on the Pro and they need a reason for it to seem "Pro". Who would choose a thicker/heavier computer if you could get the thinner lighter computer with the same features? Minus the optical drive of course.

I'll repeat my analogy from another thread: If Ford all the sudden decided to remove air-conditioning on all but their high end cars, saying it is a 'luxary' feature that 'differentiates' the model line ... we'd ALL call BULL ...!!!

It is the same with the backlit keyboard on the MBA, which was for years a standard feature. To take it away now in order to 'differentiate' it from the pro models, is total bull....!!

If you want to differentiate the pro's you add even more features. You DON'T remove once-standard features on other models and all the sudden call it a 'luxary' item.

 

[Lord Appleseed]

I doubt backlit keyboard will come back on MBA. Apple is trying to differentiate the MBP and MBA. Backlit keyboard is one of their lists.

^THIS

Why do people think its necessary or will eventually come back?

Also SB + BL Keyboard VS Nvidia GPU makes no sense.

 

[Hellhammer]

Why does everybody repeat the mantra 'Ivy Bridge'? Will it make the Intel's HD 3000 perform better in some kind of mysterious magical way? Or do you expect that by the time IB is released Intel will have developed a new, presumably better, IGP? Shall we expect the same comments "Intel IGP sucks I'm gonna skip IB and wait for whatever-bridge" again next year?

Ivy Bridge's IGP will have 16 EUs (compared to 12 in SB IGP) along with DirectX 11 and OpenCL 1.1 support. If the clock speeds stay the same, then it would be around 50% faster than the current one, although that isn't that big of an upgrade.

I'll repeat my analogy from another thread: If Ford all the sudden decided to remove air-conditioning on all but their high end cars, saying it is a 'luxary' feature that 'differentiates' the model line ... we'd ALL call BULL ...!!!

It is the same with the backlit keyboard on the MBA, which was for years a standard feature. To take it away now in order to 'differentiate' it from the pro models, is total bull....!!

If you want to differentiate the pro's you add even more features. You DON'T remove once-standard features on other models and all the sudden call it a 'luxary' item.

Apple never said they removed the BL KB because it is a luxury feature. In fact, none of us knows why Apple removed it.

 

[Lord Appleseed]

Ivy Bridge's IGP will have 16 EUs (compared to 12 in SB IGP) along with DirectX 11 and OpenCL 1.1 support. If the clock speeds stay the same, then it would be around 50% faster than the current one, although that isn't that big of an upgrade.



Apple never said they removed the BL KB because it is a luxury feature. In fact, none of us knows why Apple removed it.

My guess is it's either to save battery, or they just needed the last bit of space

 

[robeddie]

Apple never said they removed the BL KB because it is a luxury feature. In fact, none of us knows why Apple removed it.

You right. But that's a very common theory here on these threads. I use that analogy to suggest how ridiculous that would be if Apple really did remove it to 'differentiate' the product lines.

 

[TrollToddington]

Hellhammer:

Ivy Bridge's IGP will have 16 EUs (compared to 12 in SB IGP) along with DirectX 11 and OpenCL 1.1 support. If the clock speeds stay the same, then it would be around 50% faster than the current one, although that isn't that big of an upgrade.

Thanks for the clarification, you're great! So if the ULV HD3000 performs at 50% of MBP 13", and if IB speeds up the HD 3000 by 50% this will mean MBA IB HD 3000 will run @75% of the speed of 2011 MBP 13". So, I am actually quite right unless Intel develops a new IGP there is a thick chance people will bash on IB MBA, too.

because yes its certain that by ivy bridge, a better igp would be available but also you can look at it from another pov wherein even a sandybridge CPU upgrade is not substantial enough

I agree with you bump in processor speed won't be the key point to entice people to buy a SB MBA - there should be something more, either larger SSD storage for the same amount of money, or connectivity (TB) or better display, or better battery, or all of them. Providing incremental upgrade in speed is obviously not what the so called 'average user' need in an MBA - so many topics there are on the subject on MR.

 

[Cerano]

Thanks for the clarification, you're great! So if the ULV HD3000 performs at 50% of MBP 13", and if IB speeds up the HD 3000 by 50% this will mean MBA IB HD 3000 will run @75% of the speed of 2011 MBP 13". So, I am actually quite right unless Intel develops a new IGP there is a thick chance people will bash on IB MBA, too.



I agree with you bump in processor speed won't be the key point to entice people to buy a SB MBA - there should be something more, either larger SSD storage for the same amount of money, or connectivity (TB) or better display, or better battery, or all of them. Providing incremental upgrade in speed is obviously not what the so called 'average user' need in an MBA - so many topics there are on the subject on MR.

well very honestly even if Apple had offered a MBA back at the launch with Arrandales, they would have only provided bragging rights since an I5-520UM performs about the same as a 1.6 SU9600. Most people dont understand that so they go wow I5 Core2Duo sucks bro.

 

[fs454]

M11x Still love my R2.

Air is better in many other ways though.

yeah, my best friend actually has an M11x R2. I love it, but still, at how compact the 11" Air is, I'm surprised it can max out Portal 2 easily.

 

[Oppressed]

You right. But that's a very common theory here on these threads. I use that analogy to suggest how ridiculous that would be if Apple really did remove it to 'differentiate' the product lines.

Apple is a business, and its not only a possibility but expected to withhold features from products to help sell other products.

Your analogy is not as black and white as you portray it. Air conditioning is a feature that many many cars have. To not include it would be a deal breaker for almost every customer out there. Meanwhile lets say leather interior was a feature that was standard on another model it would make you think twice when thinking which model to buy either between that of the same brand (in this case ford) or another lets say Nissan. If you wanted to use your same analogy in this situation it would be if Apple choose to withhold a trackpad on the laptop.

Same thing here. BL KB is a feature that is not too standard on ALL laptops. Its more or less a luxury feature that differentiates itself from not only other Apple laptops but other companies laptops.

 

[robeddie]

Apple is a business, and its not only a possibility but expected to withhold features from products to help sell other products.

Your analogy is not as black and white as you portray it. Air conditioning is a feature that many many cars have. To not include it would be a deal breaker for almost every customer out there. Meanwhile lets say leather interior was a feature that was standard on another model it would make you think twice when thinking which model to buy either between that of the same brand (in this case ford) or another lets say Nissan. If you wanted to use your same analogy in this situation it would be if Apple choose to withhold a trackpad on the laptop.

Same thing here. BL KB is a feature that is not too standard on ALL laptops. Its more or less a luxury feature that differentiates itself from not only other Apple laptops but other companies laptops.

But to take it away ... after it had long be a 'standard' feature, that's what's vexing. That's all I'm saying. It's weird to make one part of your product line go backwards (after so many years of having the feature) in order to all the sudden assert that the rest of the line is now 'luxary'.

Usually, yesterday's luxaries become tomorrows 'standard' feature. It's downright inane to go backwards in that regard.

And I'll go with your analogy. If apple suddenly took away trackpads on their lower end laptops and declared it a luxary feature... we'd all be pissed as hell. I really don't see how this is any different.

 

[bcaslis]

You right. But that's a very common theory here on these threads. I use that analogy to suggest how ridiculous that would be if Apple really did remove it to 'differentiate' the product lines.

I've heard that they removed it because they couldn't fit it into the current MBA (which is thinner than before). Makes sense to me. Personally, I've had numerous MBPs and the original MBA. I've found I don't really miss it.

 

[Mr. Retrofire]

Almost all people in this thread sound like they want to buy a Mac mini (MBA), but want at the same time the features of a Mac Pro (MBP). Silly.

Yeah, this is the MBA-forum, but it does not make this discussion thread better.

 

[TheMacBookPro]

yeah, my best friend actually has an M11x R2. I love it, but still, at how compact the 11" Air is, I'm surprised it can max out Portal 2 easily.

Just got Portal (1) for free (OEM Alienware Gift or something like that) and it does run well on both my AW and my Air.

If replacement SSD prices dropped, this would replace my alienware as my on-the-go machine.

This thing surprises me to no end. MW2 at 20~30fps is nothing to scoff at, especially since it only has an ULV C2D and an IGP.

Only thing I miss is the bl kb.

Almost all people in this thread sound like they want to buy a Mac mini (MBA), but want at the same time the features of a Mac Pro (MBP). Silly.

Yeah, this is the MBA-forum, but it does not make this discussion thread better.

Wanting a backlit keyboard isn't as unreasonable as you think it is... esp since the previous gen Air had it.

 

[fyrefly]

If you are correct the i5 processors are obviously going to be more expensive meaning they will have te same situation with the backlit keyboard

The i5 processors are the same price (or less) as the LV C2D they're using now. The SL9400 costs $284. The i5-2537 that's in the Samsung Series 9 costs $250.

The SL9600 costs $316. The comparable i7 LV SB processor costs $316.

Plus there's no 320m cost, so that component costs conceivably go down with a SB MBA making room to re-add the BL keyboard.

Speaking of:

It is the same with the backlit keyboard on the MBA, which was for years a standard feature. To take it away now in order to 'differentiate' it from the pro models, is total bull....!!

Although of course no-one but Apple knows the real reason - I maintain that the BL keyboard wasn't removed due to "luxury" or size, or battery life. I'm 99.99% sure it was to keep the cost down, to hit that $999 price-point and keep 30% margins.

Therefore, if a SB (or IB if Apple decides to leave it's new marquee portable completely stagnant for almost 2 years...) MBA saves on component costs via not being able to use the 320m - it could conceivably put the BL keyboard back in.

Besides:

Wanting a backlit keyboard isn't as unreasonable as you think it is... esp since the previous gen Air had it.

This.

Why does everybody repeat the mantra 'Ivy Bridge'? Will it make the Intel's HD 3000 perform better in some kind of mysterious magical way? Or do you expect that by the time IB is released Intel will have developed a new, presumably better, IGP? Shall we expect the same comments "Intel IGP sucks I'm gonna skip IB and wait for whatever-bridge" again next year?

Exactly. If I had loads of time on my hands, I know I could find loads of comments (probably from the same posters) last year saying "Ugh, Arrandale IGP sucks, I hope Apple waits till Sandy Bridge!"

There'll be just as many Intel IGP haters when Ivy Bridge is released, and only "matches" the 320m.

Get with it people - at some point we're gonna lose the 320m. If it's not with SB, then it'll be with IB and the graphics will still not get "better" than the 320m. It sucks - I agree - but it's inevitable.

Almost all people in this thread sound like they want to buy a Mac mini (MBA), but want at the same time the features of a Mac Pro (MBP). Silly.

Yeah, this is the MBA-forum, but it does not make this discussion thread better.

What are you talking about? We're all here 'cause we love the MBA. Would we all like a more powerful MBA? Of course - why not? Right now the MBP's rival the some late-model Mac Pro's. Why not desire more power in a portable (CPU, Graphics, or otherwise?).

 

[brentsg]

The overreaction to the Intel HD3000 by people that have never used it is hysterical.

The funniest part is watching people defend their C2D CPUs while dissing the Intel GPU.

 

[SnowLeopard2008]

The overreaction to the Intel HD3000 by people that have never used it is hysterical.

The funniest part is watching people defend their C2D CPUs while dissing the Intel GPU.

I agree. The Intel 3000 isn't as bad as people make it out to be. If you want to play games, don't bother with an Air. A computer is a tool. If it can't perform the function that you want it to (aka gaming), then why buy it? It's function over form. Not the other way around.

As for the backlit keyboard, it's both function and form but I usually don't rely on it to type something unless I'm hunting for a key that I don't use very often. No, I don't memorize where the keys are, I just have been typing on a keyboard for many years and now where the keys are because that's how I learned to type.

 

[Psilocybin]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8G4 Safari/6533.18.5)

Haha. The hd3000 actually is horrible. And I have proof to back that up if you'd like me to make a YouTube account. It's a joke

 

[Marconelly]

I agree. The Intel 3000 isn't as bad as people make it out to be. If you want to play games, don't bother with an Air. A computer is a tool. If it can't perform the function that you want it to (aka gaming), then why buy it? It's function over form. Not the other way around.

ULV Intel 3000, which is the one that would have to go into Air, if it goes at all, is quite a bit weaker than the regular I3000. Also, why wouldn't people bother with MBA if they want to play games? Current MBA is more than fine for playing many games. It has performance that matches or exceeds X360 and PS3 with any multiplatform game I've tried.

 

[Icaras]

I agree. The Intel 3000 isn't as bad as people make it out to be. If you want to play games, don't bother with an Air.

I think to dictate what people should or shouldn't do with their machines is silly. Search the forums and the internet. The Air has proven to be plenty capable as a gaming machine for it's size and has many satisfied users talking about it.

A computer is a tool. If it can't perform the function that you want it to (aka gaming), then why buy it? It's function over form. Not the other way around.

A computer is certainly a tool, but it can also be a gaming machine, a home theater pc, an entertainment hub, etc.; whatever a user may find use for it for.

Obviously, certain machines are better and worse at certain functions than others, but don't forget that this generation of MBA, there are people that actually did go out and buy the Air because one of the reasons is that it did happen to be a decent performer in games, while remaining ultra portable. In this case, I think the Air strikes an excellent balance between function and form.

IAs for the backlit keyboard, it's both function and form but I usually don't rely on it to type something unless I'm hunting for a key that I don't use very often. No, I don't memorize where the keys are, I just have been typing on a keyboard for many years and now where the keys are because that's how I learned to type.

I use my Air for live music sets and this is exactly a scenario where such a BL KB would be grand. I read similar opinions from other musicians on this forum in another thread. Creative artists like live musicians can definitely find appropriate use for a backlit kb, but even average everyday users who don't share the same skill level as you would also benefit from it. If anything, adding convenience is always a welcome.

If you don't want or need the backlit kb, then you could always turn it off. It's there for people who might need it. Win-win situation.