Scaling on 32" 4k monitor

[zlep]

Hi, I'm getting a Mac Studio at work and I was wondering about all the scaling issue discussions. I really don't get it. At the moment I'm working with Windows on two 32" 4k LG monitors scaled to 125%. This is the perfect size for me.

Is it possible to achieve this on macOS as well? Which scaling settings do you recommend for my setup? I read about a tool called "BetterDisplay". Does this help?

Thanks

 

[Toutou]

32" at 4K is roughly what I use at work. I run it in the scaled "Looks like 3008x1692" resolution, which roughly corresponds to 125 % in Windows.

What Windows does is that it sees a 4K screen, renders onto a 4K "canvas" (framebuffer), and it just renders everything at a 125% size, because Windows knows how to "stretch" the different UI elements to 125% of their original size.

macOS does things differently, because the way it's designed, macOS can't "stretch" UI elements, only render them at exactly 100 % or 200 % (HiDPI).
macOS does scaling by rendering everything at 200 % onto a virtual screen that's twice as large as the "looks like" resolution, and then just displaying that unnecessarily large image on whatever resolution the physical screen has.

So if I use the scaled "3008x1692" resolution on my 4K (3840x2160) screen, macOS actually renders the image exactly as if I had 6016x3384 screen (like the 6K Pro Display XDR) and then downscales the 6016x3384 result to 3840x2160 to be sent to the screen.

All of this is built in, you only need 3rd party apps to force macOS to use non-standard resolutions or refresh rates.

 

[zlep]

All of this is built in, you only need 3rd party apps to force macOS to use non-standard resolutions or refresh rates.

Ok, thanks. That would work for me. But I read about performance issues and blurry text when using macOS built in scaling. Is this an issue for you? I guess I will see it next week when I get my Mac Studio, though.

 

[Toutou]

But I read about performance issues and blurry text when using macOS built in scaling. Is this an issue for you?

There was a time when the weak integrated GPUs in low-end MacBooks did visibly struggle with the larger scaled resolutions, not because of the presence of scaling, but because of the sheer number of pixels being pushed around.

But that's not a thing anymore, none of the Apple Silicon chips give a damn about what scaling you're using.
My M1 Air runs identically using only its own screen (5.2M pixels) and driving a 4K screen scaled to "3008x1692" (20.3M pixels).

Regarding the blurry text, well, some blurriness is inevitable given how the scaling works (mapping more pixels onto a grid with less pixels), but what Apple counts on is that at these pixel densities and distances you won't be able to tell.

Here is the letter "u" on my home 4K screen rendered natively (low-DPI, 100 % in Windows) and scaled to "looks like 3008x1692" (rendered at HiDPI or 200% as a 6K image, downscaled to 4K, corresponds to roughly 125 % in Windows).

I honestly can't see any blurriness. Late twenties, good eyesight, no glasses.

 

[pastrychef]

Ok, thanks. That would work for me. But I read about performance issues and blurry text when using macOS built in scaling. Is this an issue for you? I guess I will see it next week when I get my Mac Studio, though.

 

[zlep]

Yes, this is what I was talking about.

 

[pastrychef]

Yes, this is what I was talking about.

Even when you go to System Preferences > Displays > Scaled and hover over a non-square scaled resolution, it warns you that it may affect performance.

 

[zlep]

The question still is if this can be prevented by using a 3rd party tool like BetterDisplay.

 

[pastrychef]

The question still is if this can be prevented by using a 3rd party tool like BetterDisplay.

I doubt it. Best to stick to native resolution or a squared scaling resolution.

 

[theluggage]

Yes, this is what I was talking about.

That person had a M1 Mac Mini which struggled to run Blender smoothly at native 4k resolution - let alone the 5k + downsampling overhead required in scaled mode. Since it sounds like Blender was their daily driver, a 4k display really didn't offer much value for them. The scaling issue was a complete red herring, (especially with Blender, of all things, which has its own independently scalable UI and doesn't need scaled mode).

The website they were referencing correctly describes the scaling "issue" and other factors but if you skim it and just latch on to the tables saying a 1440p 37.5" is "good" and a 4k UHD 27" is "bad" without discussing pixel visibility or the ability to display 4k content at all you get a very distorted view.

Let's be realistic and look at your choices if you want a pair of large displays for your Mac:

1. Pay $12000 for a pair of Pro Display XDRs and enjoy the optimum 220ppi MacOS experience.
2. Get a pair of 32" 1440p displays, suffer a significant resolution downgrade & visible pixels and give up any possibility of viewing 4k content at full detail - but never sully your eyes with scaling artefacts. To be fair, only a few years ago we thought 1440p was the bee's knees so it's not like you won't be productive.
3. Compromise on a pair of 32" 4k displays that always show more detail than a 1440p screen (even in "looks like 1440p" mode), and have the flexibility of switching between 1:1, 2:1 and scaled mode (all of which will be very usable on a 32" display) as the task demands.

TLDNR - if you already have a pair of 32" 4k's, you're probably overthinking things. Scaling is only a problem with some very-specific photo/graphics workflows where you need to display content at "actual pixels" size, or if you're already maxing out the GPU. It is a non-issue for text at normal viewing distances unless you're planning to climb up on the desk with a magnifying glass and do A/B comparisons with a Pro Display XDR.

I'd only consider a 1440p display if my primary work couldn't take advantage of 4k.

The question still is if this can be prevented by using a 3rd party tool like BetterDisplay.

No. They might give you a wider choice of screen modes but they'll either be 1:1, 2:1, scaled or let you drive the display at a non-native resolution which may be useful for getting games etc. to run but generally looks awful.

I don't know if any of the various screen tools offer a more convenient menu, or even hotkeys, for switching between favourite modes, but that would be the most valuable contribution they could make.

 

[zlep]

I'll set up the Mac Studio tomorrow and will report back if anybody is interested.

 

[pipppa]

Planning to buy an MBP here and I need help, if I upgrade the M1 MBP 14" to 10c CPU and 16c GPU with 32gb RAM will this solve my scaling issues on my 32" 4k PD3220u display?

I'm a graphic designer and I mostly use these apps (all at the same time):
Photoshop, Illustrator, Adobe XD, Indesign, Slack, Messenger, Apple music, Excel, Word, Safari with lots of tabs (20-50) for design research/inspirations, notes

As for my monitor, I really don't want to let it go, it's really helpful when I design. I used an M2 Macbook Air before and experienced scaling issues when paired with my 4k monitor. I just sold the M2 air with 16gb RAM and now planning to buy an MBP 14" but I don't know how many GPU cores I need so I don't experience the same performance issues...

On the video, some says on the chat that upgrading the RAM fixes it, some says the GPU…

I asked this question on another thread and one replied that upping the GPU doesn’t solve the issue and best to stick to a 5k display. I’d like to hear more input about this, please if there’s a fix without having to buy a new monitor. Should I give up this plan and just stick to a windows laptop?

 

[Basic75]

The question still is if this can be prevented by using a 3rd party tool like BetterDisplay.

No, the main limitation is that macOS can only render at 100% or 200% and everything else is faked by the indirect rendering described by Toutou. Using one of these indirectly rendered resolutions incurs some GPU overhead that you might or might not care about, and it means that none of the rendering is pixel perfect which, again, you might or might not care about.

 

[nathansz]

Planning to buy an MBP here and I need help, if I upgrade the M1 MBP 14" to 10c CPU and 16c GPU with 32gb RAM will this solve my scaling issues on my 32" 4k PD3220u display?

I'm a graphic designer and I mostly use these apps (all at the same time):
Photoshop, Illustrator, Adobe XD, Indesign, Slack, Messenger, Apple music, Excel, Word, Safari with lots of tabs (20-50) for design research/inspirations, notes

As for my monitor, I really don't want to let it go, it's really helpful when I design. I used an M2 Macbook Air before and experienced scaling issues when paired with my 4k monitor. I just sold the M2 air with 16gb RAM and now planning to buy an MBP 14" but I don't know how many GPU cores I need so I don't experience the same performance issues...

On the video, some says on the chat that upgrading the RAM fixes it, some says the GPU…

I asked this question on another thread and one replied that upping the GPU doesn’t solve the issue and best to stick to a 5k display. I’d like to hear more input about this, please if there’s a fix without having to buy a new monitor. Should I give up this plan and just stick to a windows laptop?

I'm really surprised that this is an issue with apple silicon Macs. I'm on intel still and have no issue with performance regardless of scaling. I'm using 3008x1692@2x on 4k 32" monitor and everything runs perfectly smooth.

almost makes me question some of the apple silicon hype

 

[pastrychef]

I'm really surprised that this is an issue with apple silicon Macs. I'm on intel still and have no issue with performance regardless of scaling. I'm using 3008x1692@2x on 4k 32" monitor and everything runs perfectly smooth.

almost makes me question some of the apple silicon hype

It's not an Apple Silicon issue. it's a macOS issue. Makes no difference that you're on Intel.

 

[nathansz]

It's not an Apple Silicon issue. it's a macOS issue. Makes no difference that you're on Intel.

so what is the difference then that causes non-squared scaling to have no effect on performance in my case?


perhaps we are talking about different things.

i’m not saying that scaling works differently on intel vs apple silicon.

what i’m saying is that using scaled resolutions does not effect performance for me on intel, yet people are having performance issues using scaling on apple silicon. or at the very least are concerned that they might

 

[pastrychef]

so what is the difference then that causes non-squared scaling to have no effect on performance in my case?


perhaps we are talking about different things.

i’m not saying that scaling works differently on intel vs apple silicon.

what i’m saying is that using scaled resolutions does not effect performance for me on intel, yet people are having performance issues using scaling on apple silicon. or at the very least are concerned that they might

Watch the video on post #5.

 

[nathansz]

Watch the video on post #5.

I already know how scaling works in macos

I don't need to watch a video to know that it does not effect performance on my my intel computer

 

[nathansz]

I don't know if any of the various screen tools offer a more convenient menu, or even hotkeys, for switching between favourite modes, but that would be the most valuable contribution they could make.

this is the main purpose they serve, menubar or keyboard resolution switching. they can also, as you-tou mentioned, sometimes allow non-standard or incompatible resolutions

 

[pastrychef]

I already know how scaling works in macos

I don't need to watch a video to know that it does not effect performance on my my intel computer

If you already know, then you should also know it's not an Apple Silicon or Intel thing. It's a macOS thing.

If it doesn't affect Intel based Macs, why would macOS give the following warning on Intel based Macs? Just for fun?

 

[hwojtek]

If it doesn't affect Intel based Macs, why would macOS give the following warning on Intel based Macs? Just for fun?

For the same reason there is a "Content is hot" warning on a hot coffee cup in American McDonalds.
I run 3 4K displays on my Intel Mac and the performance scaled is indistinguishable from non-scaled performance. Granted, there may and most probably are applications that do not cooperate, as Blender mentioned earlier.

 

[pastrychef]

Granted, there may and most probably are applications that do not cooperate, as Blender mentioned earlier.

So it's not a "content is hot" type of thing then!

 

[hwojtek]

So it's not a "content is hot" type of thing then!

It is - should there be a single app that does not cooperate, a general warning is issued to prevent any legal action.

 

[pastrychef]

It is - should there be a single app that does not cooperate, a general warning is issued to prevent any legal action.

Here's another app... So it's not a "single app".

Any way to prevent retina scaling from affecting performance?

I’ve noticed that if I scale my monitor resolution down (in mac os settings) coronas performance takes a big hit. Mac OS has a little warning about this in it’s settings. Is there any way to prevent this or at least detect it and run windowed mode if the user is scaling their screen. It...

forums.solar2d.com

 

[pastrychef]

It is - should there be a single app that does not cooperate, a general warning is issued to prevent any legal action.

Bjango (makers of iStat Menus) also recognizes a performance hit...

Source:https://bjango.com/articles/macexternaldisplays/