Scissor vs Butterfly MacBook Pro Keyboards - Recall program

[cdelecole]

Hi there,

Related to this article "https://www.macrumors.com/guide/butterfly-keyboard-vs-scissor-keyboard/", where you explain there is a service program, do we know by what the "faulty" keyboards are replaced.
Is it by new designed keyboards or by same "defective" design keyboards, knowing then the issue would re-appear again in few months / years ?

I just bring my MAcBook Pro 2018 4 thunderbolts bought end 2018 for repair as some defective keys, but wondering by what they replaced my keyboard !!

Many Thanks !

 

[0128672]

Apple replaces the keyboard with the same keyboard type for that model of Macbook. A butterfly keyboard is not replaced with a scissor keyboard.

Is there a possibility one could have an issue with the replacement keyboard? Yes.

 

[cdelecole]

A shame .

Also repair center told me they replace the full top case, which I think consists of speakers, keyboard, trackball and battery ... ? Is it a new top case or refurbished ? They say a new but I do not really believe ...
Before bringing back my macbook pro at tepair center, I had like 200 battery cyclung charges ... if they replace by a new top case, should I see that back to 0 woth a new battery ?

I tale care of my macbook, and having the top case replaced by a second hand would worry me...

 

[Gara_kons]

When i got my 2017 MacBook's top case replaced due to a faulty keyboard, the whole top case was replaced indeed with new speakers, trackpad, back plate, keyboard and battery. Seemed new to me but i can't be 100% sure. Battery had like 2-3 cycles if i remember correctly and the manufacture date of the battery was a month before the replacement, checking it through coconut battery. Always felt that the battery wasn't keeping charge as good as the first one, but that can be for million reasons.

 

[hallux]

Even if the aluminum wasn't new, all the parts inside it would be.

 

[cdelecole]

I just got my MacBook Pro 2018 back, after keyboard issue (Computer is 23 months old).
They replaced the top case, seems brand new, new battery (at least cycle count is 0 ...), keyboard seems brand new, etc ...

But I see the recall program is only 4 years after first sale in shop ... for what is a design issue, I think this is not fair towards the customer who is buying an expensive machine (mine was 2000 euros) and doesn't know about this design issue when buying, who is "safe" for 4 years but then can be ready to pay for a repair of the keyboard ...

What is your opinion on this, do you think this is fait and do you know if legal calls were made already towards apple via consumer groups or whatever to have this "4 years" extended ?

What is your opinion, do you find it "fair" and are you one lucky possessor of the multi machines being part of that recall program ?

Many thanks !

 

[jerryk]

They will replace support your unit for 4 years after purchase. This is longer than many car warranties. People have sued Apple, Dell, and other companies over similar issues and 4 years has been what the courts have decided was a fair support timeframe.

 

[Grey Area]

They will replace support your unit for 4 years after purchase. This is longer than many car warranties. People have sued Apple, Dell, and other companies over similar issues and 4 years has been what the courts have decided was a fair support timeframe.

I think this analogy depends very much on the failure rate of the keyboard. Since we don't know the concrete data about this, maybe it is low enough that the comparison is appropriate. On the other hand, maybe it is unusually high, as many suspect. We do know that an out-of-warranty replacement is expensive. If a car had a design flaw that required a full engine replacement once a year, could the manufacturer get away with 4 years of warranty?

As it stands, I'd be very hesitant to spend any money on a butterfly-Mac, especially a used one.

 

[cdelecole]

I go in the same direction ... I do not see this as a normal defect that could happen in warranty ... but please do not forget this is a design issue (It is explained in many sites like I fix +It of Mac Rumors ...)

+Would it be possible to launch a survey where owners of such matchbooks could tell if they had the issue or not ?

My position is ... just before 4 years of utilisation, I have all interest to sell it back to avoid an expensive repair !! If I would have known this before buying, I would never bought it !

 

[matram]

I think this analogy depends very much on the failure rate of the keyboard. Since we don't know the concrete data about this, maybe it is low enough that the comparison is appropriate. On the other hand, maybe it is unusually high, as many suspect. We do know that an out-of-warranty replacement is expensive. If a car had a design flaw that required a full engine replacement once a year, could the manufacturer get away with 4 years of warranty?

As it stands, I'd be very hesitant to spend any money on a butterfly-Mac, especially a used one.

Apple Insider had an article some years back where they had unofficial data from some company repairing MBP. If I remember correctly the overall number of systems needing repair was lower for the 2016 compared to 2015. But of the systems needing repair a higher percentage had keyboard problems. Keyboard repairs were something like 7% of the systems instead of 5% For the previous generation.

My own experince is that I had problems with the 2016, the top case was replaced by Apple after one year with the 2017 keyboard. That has worked without problems since then.

It is clear that some people have more problem, one forum member claimed he had eight keyboard replacements!? So it seems some people have a usage pattern that causes more frequent failures. There has been speculation about dust (debunked I think), heat and heavy handed typing.

No one really knows. I guess if the case ends up in court we may get more hard facts. For know I am happily using both my 16” and the 15” 2016.

 

[cdelecole]

Concerning the design issue on butterfly keyboards linked to below's devices, Apple is making a recall program of 4 years.
If you are a possessor of such a computer, weather you have the issue or nor, can you please reply to this poll

• MacBook (Retina, 12 pouces, début 2015)
• MacBook (Retina, 12 pouces, début 2016)
• MacBook (Retina, 12 pouces, 2017)
• MacBook Air (Retina, 13 pouces, 2018)
• MacBook Air (Retina, 13 pouces, 2019)
• MacBook Pro (13 pouces, 2016, deux ports Thunderbolt 3)
• MacBook Pro (13 pouces, 2017, deux ports Thunderbolt 3)
• MacBook Pro (13 pouces, 2019, deux ports Thunderbolt 3)
• MacBook Pro (13 pouces, 2016, quatre ports Thunderbolt 3)
• MacBook Pro (13 pouces, 2017, quatre ports Thunderbolt 3)
• MacBook Pro (15 pouces, 2016)
• MacBook Pro (15 pouces, 2017)
• MacBook Pro (13 pouces, 2018, quatre ports Thunderbolt 3)
• MacBook Pro (15 pouces, 2018)
• MacBook Pro (13 pouces, 2019, quatre ports Thunderbolt 3)
• MacBook Pro (15 pouces, 2019)

 

[fromsixtozero]

I just got my MacBook Pro 2018 back, after keyboard issue (Computer is 23 months old).
They replaced the top case, seems brand new, new battery (at least cycle count is 0 ...), keyboard seems brand new, etc ...

But I see the recall program is only 4 years after first sale in shop ... for what is a design issue, I think this is not fair towards the customer who is buying an expensive machine (mine was 2000 euros) and doesn't know about this design issue when buying, who is "safe" for 4 years but then can be ready to pay for a repair of the keyboard ...

What is your opinion on this, do you think this is fait and do you know if legal calls were made already towards apple via consumer groups or whatever to have this "4 years" extended ?

What is your opinion, do you find it "fair" and are you one lucky possessor of the multi machines being part of that recall program ?

Many thanks !

I think 4 years isn´t fair. Warranty issue and design issue are different things. Warranty covers issues which may happen due to random failures while manufacturing, deviations in material/quality between devices etc. Design issue is a problem which exists by every manufactured device (or car, or whatever). In this case, there is a keyboard which is going to fail if you do certain thing, which is just typing and getting a very small debris under the keyboard. This is a use case scenario which is going to play out by 99% of devices at some point, unless you are super super careful. It is like if you had a car and you knew that once you go through a puddle, it will eventually not steer well anymore (for example). How likely it is that you go through a puddle with a car? Very likely. You can of course avoid it, but it is a time bomb. It is understandable that nothing lasts forever, different people use their devices in different environment, or more/ less extensively, but this products doesn´t even give you a chance to "baby" it. Or to me it seems like a whole another level of babying, if you can´t even get a spec of dust under a key..

I would never buy it, even if they offered 6 years of "warranty" for this issue. If I am careful I can get 10 years out of a Macbook. Why buy a lemon product in the first place? The same issue was with my Macbook Pro 2011, the AMD graphics failed (it is the same time bomb as the butterfly keyboard) but the computer is 100% working otherwise, because I took good care of it and didn´t use it as much etc.

 

[cdelecole]

I made a poll here :
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...utterfly-like-keyboards-design-issue.2251263/

I also asked the repair center by what they replaced the top case on my MacBook Pro 2018 ... they only told by new apple spare part, but I have no idea if there are several versions of those top cases with "enhanced" keyboard in 2019 or 2020 ?
... and how to check this.

All I can see is that my top case seems to be a new one and the battery had 0 cycling charges.

 

[Fishrrman]

OP:

You have what you have.
Just keep using it.
If the keyboard fails again before the 4-year extended warranty runs out, get it replaced again.

You get a whole new (or refurbished) top case, including a NEW battery. Not a bad deal.

You're not the only one upset about the unreliable butterfly keyboards.
That's why Apple isn't using them anymore (although it took them FOUR YEARS to admit their mistake, the bad design should have been replaced in year 2).
I'm also guessing that this is a major factor in why Jony Ive left Apple (I sense he kept pushing Apple to "fix" the butterfly keyboard, rather than abandon it for a keyboard that actually worked).

 

[StumpyBloke]

Why do you want people to reply to a poll?

 

[cdelecole]

To have an idea on the % of people which were impacted.

 

[Mainsail]

The butterfly keyboards went through at least 3 iterations, so I would not conclude that this poll is representive of all models under the replacement program. The early keyboards had issues right out of the gate. Almost immediately, people experienced failures. The last set of BF keyboards had hardened dome switches and less tacky material for the dust/dirt protecting membrane. I rarely read about issues with these keyboards. Although, I am a sure they occur ocassionally and are covered by the replacement program.

 

[cdelecole]

you mean they replace some defect BF keyboards by new "series", enhanced Butterfly keyboards, like some with membranes ?
Is there a way I can know what kind of top case they replaced on my Macbook ?

 

[Mainsail]

you mean they replace some defect BF keyboards by new "series", enhanced Butterfly keyboards, like some with membranes ?
Is there a way I can know what kind of top case they replaced on my Macbook ?

Not sure if you are asking me this question. But, the replacement program is largely ”in kind”. So, if you have a 2016 model, you won’t get the “improved” 2019 keyboard as a replacement.

 

[chrfr]

you mean they replace some defect BF keyboards by new "series", enhanced Butterfly keyboards, like some with membranes ?
Is there a way I can know what kind of top case they replaced on my Macbook ?

The 2018 models should be getting the slightly revised 2019 keyboard, which seems as though it might be slightly more reliable. Earlier models get only the 2017 style keyboard.

 

[cdelecole]

I bought a 2018 model ... 4 thunderbolt 3 ports ...
just wondering what they replaced my original keyboard with ... the exact same "bad design" model ... or a newer model ...
never know

 

[involuntarheely]

from what I understood the 2018 models get a 2019 butterfly replacement. the 2019 models seem to have not suffered as extensive a problem as earlier generations.

 

[wallah]

Re battery replacement with KB replacement

Would have posted this in 'Macbook' forum, but it seems relevant here so pardon the wrong forum if that's the case.

Speaking of cases, I have Macbook 10,1 which had keyboard replaced under the Apple program. As described in posts above and by my authorized tech., the top case was replaced and I was told the battery would be too. I know the case was actually replaced becuase some light scuffs lightening the paint on the rear outside corners are now in perfect condition. The screen case has the same scuffs in the same places which remain.

However, after a full discharge of the battery when getting the computer back, a full recharge and a couple restarts and several days of use, the batter cycle count in sys info shows ~550 cycles. Computer still works great, holds good charge, but I'm wondering why it would show this cycle count if the battery was replaced in repair, or if there is a repair now that doesn't replace the battery? Or is there a way to reset the cycle count that I don't know about? I was expecting it to be 0 or 1.

 

[ascender]

Since 2016, our company have had about 15 MacBook Pros with butterfly keyboards, a 2019 MacBook Air and three 12" MacBooks. Our laptops get used indoors and outdoors, but of all of those, the only one with any sort of keyboard issue was the 2019 MacBook Air.

Some people on here have had more than 3 replacements of keyboards on a single laptop though, so there has been some discussion about whether failures aren't only linked to dust ingress, but also how hot the machines are running and people's typing styles.

It does appear from anecdotal evidence that the final revision in 2019 has improved reliability of the keyboards, but unless Apple come clean with the statistics, we'll never know just how bad (or not) it was. I do think its one of the the worst examples of bad PR they've had in recent years though.

Even so, there's a lot of Apple customers and potential customers who have no idea about the keyboard issues, because as bad as the press was, it was largely confined to the tech press. I'd definitely be hesitant about buying a machine with anything but the latest revision of it.

 

[chrfr]

However, after a full discharge of the battery when getting the computer back, a full recharge and a couple restarts and several days of use, the batter cycle count in sys info shows ~550 cycles. Computer still works great, holds good charge, but I'm wondering why it would show this cycle count if the battery was replaced in repair...

For the 12" MacBook, the battery is not part of the keyboard replacement. On those computers the battery is glued to the bottom plate, opposite of the Air and Pro where the battery is glued to the top case with the keyboard and trackpad.