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At least here in the state's, the buyer is king. Type the right things into paypal and EBay and you will always get your money back. At worst you will be out return shipping and time lost. 900 positives and 0 negatives means he either has 900 relatives who bought from him or he is taking care of customers.

This isn't a used car that may have been flooded in a hurricane or spent years in a rental fleet or been in a horrible accident. If it is working solid and stable today, it will most likely continue to do so. One of the issues with being an honest seller is that you are always competing with less honest sellers and frequently the customer only buys a computer every few years.

So if someone else is glossing over that their 4,1 has the Netkas 5,1 flash and your have a giant asterisk in your ad and detail this, you WILL lose sales to the less scrupulous sellers.

We don't sell whole systems so I don't have complete knowledge but I know that MANY buyers come with half right ideas that you either correct or run with. When you correct someone they frequently get offended.

The people who mod dual CPU 4,1s have guts. I tried it once and still have a semi-buggered tray that I need to get heatsinks for. Someone who does this was wailing in agony on Netkas with a fleet of dead trays. $400+ each.

Try just asking if it is a 4,1 that has been flashed to 5,1. Nothing wrong with them, just be sure it already has CPUs you can live with as changing is not a task for the sort of people who spend 2 weeks deciding which RAM to buy.

We try very hard to stress test each GPU before shipment. People tend to notice when their computer doesn't work. The second you file a "item not as described" EBay and Paypal lock up the money until the buyer agrees to release it. Gives the seller wonderful motivation to get you happy or get computer back quickly. Imagine if you sold two $5K machines and both buyers file a claim. $10,000.00 vanishes in seconds until you make them both happy.
 
Thanks for the apple care paragraph, I should send them this ;) (Edit: "...or acts of god" haha!)

As for finding an oMP in Europe: They were banned only in 2013 so older ones than that shouldn't even be that hard to find hm… I also considered importing one from the US but the 20% import taxes I have to pay on top of that make them more expensive than the ones you find here. But just to make it clear, it doesn't have to be new. Some listings are just confusing because the state certain parts are new etc. and then I'm just curious and ask.

BTW: Here is one of the sellers. Weirdly enough, all of his 5,1 2010+ mac pros seem to have the 4870 graphics card. Does anyone perhaps notice something weird? After all these things I'm too paranoid to have an objective view on this I think.

I just glanced at one of the single CPU models this seller is offering. There were screen shots of the System Information showing an SMC firmware of the 5,1 Mac Pro.
If it were a flashed 4,1, then the SMC would be that of the 2009 4,1 model. The SMC firmware cannot be flashed, so if his Mac Pros have 5,1 SMC, then they must be authentic 5,1 Mac Pros.
Also, the graphics card was 5770.
 
I don't speak german, but looking at his ebay store there are 973 positive reviews and zero neutral and zero negative ones.

In my search, I realised that the guys who I considered buying from in the UK were very mac savvy, so from a technical point of view I trusted them. I am pretty sure they are selling flashed 4,1s at times, and not labelling them as such, but then again, I'm not sure its such a big deal. People have a right to make an honest profit, if they've imported machines and done a CPU upgrade, they've laid out risk and effort to provide what you are looking for. Its just, if you are a cheap ass, you can take on the same work yourself.

If you are considering buying a machine, its acceptable to request a serial number before hand. Not publicising the number in general ads is ok from their point of view as well, but they should tell you it before you buy.

These machines can get thin on the ground. These resellers offer some sort of warranty on the work, and I'm assuming they run a Apple Hardware test before they sell. I wouldn't worry about getting a bad mac so much, but if you are worried you can run AHT and stress tests when you take delivery.
 
At least here in the state's, the buyer is king. Type the right things into paypal and EBay and you will always get your money back. At worst you will be out return shipping and time lost. 900 positives and 0 negatives means he either has 900 relatives who bought from him or he is taking care of customers.

This isn't a used car that may have been flooded in a hurricane or spent years in a rental fleet or been in a horrible accident. If it is working solid and stable today, it will most likely continue to do so. One of the issues with being an honest seller is that you are always competing with less honest sellers and frequently the customer only buys a computer every few years.

So if someone else is glossing over that their 4,1 has the Netkas 5,1 flash and your have a giant asterisk in your ad and detail this, you WILL lose sales to the less scrupulous sellers.

We don't sell whole systems so I don't have complete knowledge but I know that MANY buyers come with half right ideas that you either correct or run with. When you correct someone they frequently get offended.

The people who mod dual CPU 4,1s have guts. I tried it once and still have a semi-buggered tray that I need to get heatsinks for. Someone who does this was wailing in agony on Netkas with a fleet of dead trays. $400+ each.

Try just asking if it is a 4,1 that has been flashed to 5,1. Nothing wrong with them, just be sure it already has CPUs you can live with as changing is not a task for the sort of people who spend 2 weeks deciding which RAM to buy.

We try very hard to stress test each GPU before shipment. People tend to notice when their computer doesn't work. The second you file a "item not as described" EBay and Paypal lock up the money until the buyer agrees to release it. Gives the seller wonderful motivation to get you happy or get computer back quickly. Imagine if you sold two $5K machines and both buyers file a claim. $10,000.00 vanishes in seconds until you make them both happy.

I know that he has 900 points and zero negatives, and I'm sure he knows what he does with the Macs, what I hate is that it's aimed at people who know everything already about it. I have the feeling the seller excepts everyone to know themselves if it's a 4,1 or not for example, and he acted like he gave me strange looks when I asked him some questions that seemed totally normal to me. If you look at his points also, he doesn't seem to have sold many Macs, only parts. At least I haven't spotted any Mac sold recently.

I just glanced at one of the single CPU models this seller is offering. There were screen shots of the System Information showing an SMC firmware of the 5,1 Mac Pro.
If it were a flashed 4,1, then the SMC would be that of the 2009 4,1 model. The SMC firmware cannot be flashed, so if his Mac Pros have 5,1 SMC, then they must be authentic 5,1 Mac Pros.
Also, the graphics card was 5770.

Hmm I've had a look here: http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1237
The SMC number for the Mac Pro 2010 5,1 isn't listen on that page. But the EFI Boot ROM version is, and it's the same. Can this changed, or is this a safe thing, like the SMC? While searching for it I've also seen plenty of "Reset SMC" tutorial and stuff like this haha.

I'm wondering if it's possible to put the 4870 graphics card in the 2010/5,1 model? Or perhaps some of these were a 4,1 then upgraded with 8-cores (2,4 GHz) and now upgraded again to 12 cores. :D



I don't speak german, but looking at his ebay store there are 973 positive reviews and zero neutral and zero negative ones.

In my search, I realised that the guys who I considered buying from in the UK were very mac savvy, so from a technical point of view I trusted them. I am pretty sure they are selling flashed 4,1s at times, and not labelling them as such, but then again, I'm not sure its such a big deal. People have a right to make an honest profit, if they've imported machines and done a CPU upgrade, they've laid out risk and effort to provide what you are looking for. Its just, if you are a cheap ass, you can take on the same work yourself.

If you are considering buying a machine, its acceptable to request a serial number before hand. Not publicising the number in general ads is ok from their point of view as well, but they should tell you it before you buy.

These machines can get thin on the ground. These resellers offer some sort of warranty on the work, and I'm assuming they run a Apple Hardware test before they sell. I wouldn't worry about getting a bad mac so much, but if you are worried you can run AHT and stress tests when you take delivery.

The ads are all in English as well I think?
The thing is, this whole thing reminds me of this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/2214...7951&item=221474153573&lgeo=1&vectorid=229508

A Ferrari for sale, the price is low, everything looks real. But it's a replica. The difference: the guys states it at least…

But the seller of the Mac still hasn't answered. I had asked him a few questions:
Is the Mac based on the 8-core 2,4 GHz? (because it said the 2,4 GHz processors will be swapped, now however we just found out it may be a 4,1)
What Bluetooth does the Mac have? (Is this a stupid question?)
Which price can you make me without the 2TB HDD, mouse and keyboard?

And I'm sure the Macs are perfect from a technical point of view, I'm just afraid of buying something then realising there was something better that I could have afforded, and then not be able to return it. I'm not scared of the performance, more of my lack of knowledge that I still have on many little things when it comes to the Mac Pro.


BTW: Thanks so much for the help everyone :) You learn so quickly on these forums and it's good that people help each other, perhaps this thread helps someone else in the future too. I'm new to the Mac Pro world and therefore there is a lot of details that I don't know but that may be crucial for me. I don't want these guys to hide something if I buy it, or taking advantage of anyone not knowing every single detail about the Mac.
 
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Once you have a serial number, you can establish what year the machine was built. That is more reliable than SMC/EFI to establish vintage.

FYI any graphic card a 2012 Mac Pro can take, a flashed 2009 can take. There is lots of knowledge of gpus in the forum under that topic.

You must always be aware of the power draw of aftermarket GPUs and not putting anything in there that will require more than the system power under load.

The bottom line is that if you aren't happy with the communication, don't buy it from them. In that case, you will need to buy from an individual mac pro owner, and again you will get honest and dishonest ones. Alternatively, in the US there are resellers like MacOfAllTrades.com who are reliable. You can see what it costs to ship from them to you, pay taxes and customs, and then either do the upgrade yourself or pay someone to do it.

In France and Italy, there are used mac sellers like

http://www.mediacash.com/
http://www.macexchange.it/

You might find they are a source

In the end, a mac pro is a mac pro, as long as its 2009 or newer, you have something to work with.
 
Once you have a serial number, you can establish what year the machine was built. That is more reliable than SMC/EFI to establish vintage.

FYI any graphic card a 2012 Mac Pro can take, a flashed 2009 can take. There is lots of knowledge of gpus in the forum under that topic.

You must always be aware of the power draw of aftermarket GPUs and not putting anything in there that will require more than the system power under load.

The bottom line is that if you aren't happy with the communication, don't buy it from them. In that case, you will need to buy from an individual mac pro owner, and again you will get honest and dishonest ones. Alternatively, in the US there are resellers like MacOfAllTrades.com who are reliable. You can see what it costs to ship from them to you, pay taxes and customs, and then either do the upgrade yourself or pay someone to do it.

In France and Italy, there are used mac sellers like

http://www.mediacash.com/
http://www.macexchange.it/

You might find they are a source

In the end, a mac pro is a mac pro, as long as its 2009 or newer, you have something to work with.

Thanks! And I checked those links and found two on the italian site. The problem is, you have to know these sites, because when you search for these Macs on Google, they don't appear.

As for 2009… I just got offered one on eBay, which might be a good deal. The dude was full of himself explaining me they offer a service and warranty "far greater than anyone else on this planet", I replied I wouldn't go as far as saying that and that their colleagues on eBay offer the same "service" and the same warranty, and the only inferior thing I saw there was the price. (which is all true BTW)
Then he came up with the following:

Mac Pro 5,1 (2009 upgrade & Refurb)
2.93Ghz 12 Core
32Gb DDR3 ECC
240GB Samsung EVO SSD
GT120 512MB GPU
1 Year warranty RTB

£2033.00 (EX VAT and free delivery to EU)

What's all the downsides of a 4,1 upgraded to 5,1? Any plugs different/missing or such things?

Earlier he gave me another offer, £2095 for the real 5,1 without GPU/HDD/RAM but I said no because for the money I've got to invest in those things, the other dude on eBay (with the same "service" and warranty) is cheaper by many hundreds. Yes call me poor, I'm just trying to get the best deal!
 
I don't know how else to say it, but as I said earlier, there is literally NO difference btw the 2009 and the 2012, once you've flashed the firmware, except one.

Upgrading the 2009 dual cpu is a trickier job due to the lidless/lidded cpu design. If they've done it already, then to you, NO DIFFERENT.

The slight age gap might mean that a component fails a bit earlier, like power supply, etc, then again, it might not. That is down to luck.

Given your seeming level of technical comfort, you should probably just buy one that has been upgraded for you.
 
Hmm I've had a look here: http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1237
The SMC number for the Mac Pro 2010 5,1 isn't listen on that page. But the EFI Boot ROM version is, and it's the same. Can this changed, or is this a safe thing, like the SMC? While searching for it I've also seen plenty of "Reset SMC" tutorial and stuff like this haha.

I'm wondering if it's possible to put the 4870 graphics card in the 2010/5,1 model? Or perhaps some of these were a 4,1 then upgraded with 8-cores (2,4 GHz) and now upgraded again to 12 cores. :D

And I'm sure the Macs are perfect from a technical point of view, I'm just afraid of buying something then realising there was something better that I could have afforded, and then not be able to return it. I'm not scared of the performance, more of my lack of knowledge that I still have on many little things when it comes to the Mac Pro.

The smc firmware Studio K was mentioning in his post is the "1.39f11" in the screenshot in the seller's eBay ad.

Screenshot of seller's smc version
152C65986C6B4C87B3BED530751507A1.jpg


I just glanced at one of the single CPU models this seller is offering. There were screen shots of the System Information showing an SMC firmware of the 5,1 Mac Pro.
If it were a flashed 4,1, then the SMC would be that of the 2009 4,1 model. The SMC firmware cannot be flashed, so if his Mac Pros have 5,1 SMC, then they must be authentic 5,1 Mac Pros.
Also, the graphics card was 5770.

Studio K was correct in pointing out that the smc version for a genuine 5.1 is 1.39f11. A 2009 4.1 Mac Pro will still have the same smc of "1.39f5" even after the firmware was updated to 5.1. It's one way of telling between a genuine 5.1 to an upgraded 4.1 Mac Pro to become 5.1.

The graphic card in this seller's photo, looks like a Sapphire Radeon 4870 PC card, maybe flashed and overclocked to a 1Gb unless I am wrong.

Seller's Photo
3F2F2DEB063647C6B6CD2288037000E8.jpg


As far as I know, a 4870hd card can also work in a 2010-2012 5.1 Mac Pro. The hardware architecture of the 2009 Mac Pro and the 2010, 2012 Mac Pros are very similar. The difference lies in the CPUs used and the CPU Tray structure and the firmware. The 2009 uses lidless Nehalems while the 2010 and 2012 5.1 uses lidded Westmeres.
 
I don't know how else to say it, but as I said earlier, there is literally NO difference btw the 2009 and the 2012, once you've flashed the firmware, except one.

Upgrading the 2009 dual cpu is a trickier job due to the lidless/lidded cpu design. If they've done it already, then to you, NO DIFFERENT.

The slight age gap might mean that a component fails a bit earlier, like power supply, etc, then again, it might not. That is down to luck.

Given your seeming level of technical comfort, you should probably just buy one that has been upgraded for you.

Yeah I certainly wouldn't do the upgrade myself. I'll think of it then :)

The smc firmware Studio K was mentioning in his post is the "1.39f11" in the screenshot in the seller's eBay ad.

Screenshot of seller's smc version
Image



Studio K was correct in pointing out that the smc version for a genuine 5.1 is 1.39f11. A 2009 4.1 Mac Pro will still have the same smc of "1.39f5" even after the firmware was updated to 5.1. It's one way of telling between a genuine 5.1 to an upgraded 4.1 Mac Pro to become 5.1.

The graphic card in this seller's photo, looks like a Sapphire Radeon 4870 PC card, maybe flashed and overclocked to a 1Gb unless I am wrong.

Seller's Photo
Image

As far as I know, a 4870hd card can also work in a 2010-2012 5.1 Mac Pro. The hardware architecture of the 2009 Mac Pro and the 2010, 2012 Mac Pros are very similar. The difference lies in the CPUs used and the CPU Tray structure and the firmware. The 2009 uses lidless Nehalems while the 2010 and 2012 5.1 uses lidded Westmeres.

Alright then it should be a real one, with the graphics card of the previous model :) I had figured out the number, just on the link I posted, there was no number for the 5,1 so I couldn't check.
Is there some advantages or disadvantages for the difference in those CPU trays?
And as for the photo: it's just a photo they use for each of their listings, so it's not necessarily the one from the listing.

Just wished to give a hat tip to all the people who posted. GREAT job of giving useful info here.

Yes I agree, the amount of information posted here in such short time, it would have taken ages to learn all of that by browsing the web alone. :) It's good to have experienced people on your side who know of all the little details! What would we be without them? :p

Correct for the DUAL CPU 2009s.

The SINGLE CPU 2009s use standard lidded CPUs, so upgrading the SINGLE CPU 2009s is a piece of cake.

So basically from what I got, this is only of importance if you upgrade the CPU. Since it's already upgraded, it will not pose any problems in the future I guess? Unless of course, I want to upgrade the 2,93GHz 12 core one day again :p
 
Yeah I certainly wouldn't do the upgrade myself. I'll think of it then :)

Alright then it should be a real one, with the graphics card of the previous model :) I had figured out the number, just on the link I posted, there was no number for the 5,1 so I couldn't check.
Is there some advantages or disadvantages for the difference in those CPU trays?
And as for the photo: it's just a photo they use for each of their listings, so it's not necessarily the one from the listing.

In terms of speed and performance, the 2009 4.1 performs just as good as the 2010, 2012 5.1 Westmere Mac Pros. I have used with my work a 2009 up to a 2012. Basically similar in performance and stability. The difference in the CPU Tray is more of structural. The disadvantage of the 2009 4.1 Mac Pros is that it's harder to upgrade the cpus being lidless for dual cpus. But for single cpus, the 2009 is as easy to upgrade as the 2010 5.1s. The 2009 Mac Pros' can also use Westmere cpus and 1333mhz rams if you upgrade the firmware to 5.1.
 
Unless of course, I want to upgrade the 2,93GHz 12 core one day again :p

There's no where to go up from here. There are 3 chips faster than this, at about 10 percent geekbench gain per bump up, the 3.06, the 3.33, and the 3.47. The first two you probably wouldn't even notice the difference, and the last you just might.

Only the 3.47 goes for about 1500 up to 2000 USD for a pair of them still, and that's installing them yourself. By the time the price comes down, you'll probably think of moving to the nMP.
 
Amd 4870 will work in ANY Mac Pro.

If it has a MDP then it is Apple OEM and has 512 Megs of RAM.

If it is Dual DVI it is flashed and can run a 30" from lower port but only a 24" from upper. No VGA support, just DVI. Flashed can be 512 or 1 Gig. (Rare 2 Gig version)

It is likely they are using these as PC version less than $50 these days and this is first AMD card with OpenCl so FCPX will open without warning dialog
 
And ebay is really scary from a sellers perspective too, that's potentially £3k gone if the buyer lies about something. My Mac Pro is on there at the moment, and I'm pretty scared to sell it with paypal. I've heard horror stories about people claiming package was empty etc, and experienced once someone claiming one of the dvi ports was damaged on a VGA card I sold. Obviously offered full refund on condition he returned it, but he wanted a 90% refund and to keep the card. Ebay sided with me in the end, but only by some miracle when I found the same pictures of damaged dvd ports on google from about a year prior to me selling it. Horrible feeling, and all over about £25 which I would of actually paid to not of experienced it.

Nox
 
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