Shake up at MS - Elop is out

[Renzatic]

The thing that makes absolutely no sense to me is that they're still making and pushing Windows Phone 10. I doubt very seriously this was a spur of the moment decision, made one day, executed the next. With their continued emphasis on continuum and universal apps in Win10, maybe they still have designs, albeit in a much smaller capacity, for the mobile space.

Instead of producing phones as a large OEM themselves, they could be going for a more concentrated, Surface-like business model. Produce a boutique version of their own platform to garner attention and serve as an example for the actual, honest to god OEMs.

 

[sracer]

The thing that makes absolutely no sense to me is that they're still making and pushing Windows Phone 10. I doubt very seriously this was a spur of the moment decision, made one day, executed the next. With their continued emphasis on continuum and universal apps in Win10, maybe they still have designs, albeit in a much smaller capacity, for the mobile space.

If you know Microsoft, then you know that it makes perfect sense. Microsoft has a history with mobile devices of killing things abruptly, rebooting a product mid-stream, only to kill it soon after.

Microsoft is a behemoth of a corporation. Their internal structure is highly complex. They're a battleship that takes miles of ocean to make a minor course correction. Decisions and deals made have long implementation phases. It is the inertia of these projects that cause them to continue to progress down an implementation path for many months (sometimes years) after the decision to stop has been made.

I'm not surprised by this turn of events, I knew it was coming and had warned people about investing in Windows Phone hardware and ecosystem.

As for having a Windows Phone that actually runs a full version of Windows that Belfiore briefly demo/teased? It's not going to happen. It never was. It was as close to being a reality as custom blades for the Surface, and the Courier (folding tablet).

Continuum and Universal apps are not going to be fully realized. They were part of the overall inclusion for Windows Phone 10. Now that it is toast, there's no reason to continue to invest in further development of those features.

Instead of producing phones as a large OEM themselves, they could be going for a more concentrated, Surface-like business model. Produce a boutique version of their own platform to garner attention and serve as an example for the actual, honest to god OEMs.

That historically hasn't worked for Microsoft. They don't have the ability to properly launch such an endeavor. All pistons need to be firing. As we saw with the initial Surface release, they botched it from the get-go... on multiple levels.

 

[MRU]

As for having a Windows Phone that actually runs a full version of Windows that Belfiore briefly demo/teased? It's not going to happen. It never was. It was as close to being a reality as custom blades for the Surface, and the Courier (folding tablet).

That courier proof / concept was amazing that when Surface came out you couldn't help but be exceptionally underwhelmed.

I too feel this was inevitable - there's only so far you can pour energy and resources into a vaporous hole before you have to plug it. I imagine a lot of the Nokia Patent's that MS also acquired are at least earning some revenue.

 

[Renzatic]

Snip

If this is the case, they've practically consigned themselves to a slow slide into an enterprise only solution, considering their entire consumer market strategy was built around the whole one platform, multiple devices spiel.

The major selling point of Windows 10, besides some nice UI features, were the universal apps. 70% of the OS practically uses it, with a planned 100% complete replacement with the up and coming Redstone release. Developers will continue writing bog standard Win32 apps that'll work across the Windows family instead of learning an entirely new API its only capable of being used on Win10. Then, by extension, their tablets won't have as much appeal without having a bevvy of universal apps to use with it, or a smartphone to pair alongside it.

Without Windows Phone, they no longer have a full platform to call their own. If MS' intentions are to mothball Windows Phone entirely, then practically all the work they've done for the past year has been for nothing. It's like they've spent all their time training for a big marathon, only to take a knife and hamstring themselves the day before. It doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[MRU]

If this is the case, they've practically consigned themselves to a slow slide into an enterprise only solution, considering their entire consumer market strategy was built around the whole one platform, multiple devices spiel.

The major selling point of Windows 10, besides some nice UI features, were the universal apps. 70% of the OS practically uses it, with a planned 100% complete replacement with the up and coming Redstone release. Developers will continue writing bog standard Win32 apps that'll work across the Windows family instead of learning an entirely new API its only capable of being used on Win10. Then, by extension, their tablets won't have as much appeal without having a bevvy of universal apps to use with it, or a smartphone to pair alongside it.

Without Windows Phone, they no longer have a full platform to call their own. If MS' intentions are to mothball Windows Phone entirely, then practically all the work they've done for the past year has been for nothing. It's like they've spent all their time training for a big marathon, only to take a knife and hamstring themselves the day before. It doesn't make any sense to me.

I wonder though how many windows tablets sold compared to windows phones ? If its dramatically more - then much of what they have put into place is still relevant even without Windows phone. Especially if it was much of a non-entitiy sales wise in the scheme of things.

 

[Renzatic]

That courier proof / concept was amazing that when Surface came out you couldn't help but be exceptionally underwhelmed.

The Courier was an interesting design, but it wasn't an app based tablet like the iPad or the Surface. It was basically a glorified paper notebook that didn't even have an internet browser.

That's not to say it couldn't have morphed itself into something better over time, but the reality of it probably would've left a lot of us disappointed were it to come out.

 

[Renzatic]

I wonder though how many windows tablets sold compared to windows phones ? If its dramatically more - then much of what they have put into place is still relevant even without Windows phone. Especially if it was much of a non-entitiy sales wise in the scheme of things.

Their tablets aren't doing too half bad. But still, even though WP wasn't a wild, screaming success, they still had a foot in the game. Without having a smartphone, their ecosystem feels incomplete. There isn't quite as much appeal for developers to target MS specific APIs.

And considering these new MS specific APIs are one of the major reasons behind Windows 10, I can't help but feel like this move is cutting off their own nose to spite their own face.

 

[spinedoc77]

If you know Microsoft, then you know that it makes perfect sense. Microsoft has a history with mobile devices of killing things abruptly, rebooting a product mid-stream, only to kill it soon after.

Microsoft is a behemoth of a corporation. Their internal structure is highly complex. They're a battleship that takes miles of ocean to make a minor course correction. Decisions and deals made have long implementation phases. It is the inertia of these projects that cause them to continue to progress down an implementation path for many months (sometimes years) after the decision to stop has been made.

I'm not surprised by this turn of events, I knew it was coming and had warned people about investing in Windows Phone hardware and ecosystem.

As for having a Windows Phone that actually runs a full version of Windows that Belfiore briefly demo/teased? It's not going to happen. It never was. It was as close to being a reality as custom blades for the Surface, and the Courier (folding tablet).

Continuum and Universal apps are not going to be fully realized. They were part of the overall inclusion for Windows Phone 10. Now that it is toast, there's no reason to continue to invest in further development of those features.



That historically hasn't worked for Microsoft. They don't have the ability to properly launch such an endeavor. All pistons need to be firing. As we saw with the initial Surface release, they botched it from the get-go... on multiple levels.

This is so sad, I had such high hopes for continuum and universal apps. I don't think MS realizes how they affect hardcore fans such as myself with these incredible announcements, then deep disappointments. I honestly think a surface phone would sell very well, maybe not Apple numbers but enough for them to get some market penetration and show people what windows phone is about. Coupled with continuum/universal apps and I think people would start going nuts over WP. I remember reading an interview back in march with Elop where he strongly suggested the windows 10 flagship phone would take a lot of cues from the surface pro, including stylus support.

 

[Renzatic]

Apparently they're not nixing WP entirely, though they're not going to be making multiple Lumias per year like they have been.

Looks like I was closer to the mark originally. They're going with a more Surface like setup. Let's see if it works out.

 

[sracer]

This is so sad, I had such high hopes for continuum and universal apps. I don't think MS realizes how they affect hardcore fans such as myself with these incredible announcements, then deep disappointments. I honestly think a surface phone would sell very well, maybe not Apple numbers but enough for them to get some market penetration and show people what windows phone is about. Coupled with continuum/universal apps and I think people would start going nuts over WP. I remember reading an interview back in march with Elop where he strongly suggested the windows 10 flagship phone would take a lot of cues from the surface pro, including stylus support.

I agree, it is sad. While I can take some consolation in confirming that my view of things is correct, I take no joy in how it turned out. Microsoft was at one time sitting on the top of mobile computing. I remember developing for those early PDAs. A group of us did a lot of work on user interface design for PocketPC devices. These designs predated Android and iOS by quite a few years and in many ways still superior to what is out there now. We had a blast.

Microsoft has often had those far-reaching concepts but aren't corporately organized to be able to bring them correctly to market.

Apparently they're not nixing WP entirely, though they're not going to be making multiple Lumias per year like they have been.

Looks like I was closer to the mark originally. They're going with a more Surface like setup. Let's see if it works out.

Don't believe it. Microsoft may have some enterprise contracts that require them to produce handsets. Think of the Microsoft Kin. It was discontinued 30 days after it was released to market.

 

[question fear]

Don't believe it. Microsoft may have some enterprise contracts that require them to produce handsets. Think of the Microsoft Kin. It was discontinued 30 days after it was released to market.

Yea, that's my gut too. I loved windows phone but switched back to Android because of app availability, and I can't imagine that situation will improve if they cut it down to a few phones.

 

[sracer]

Yea, that's my gut too. I loved windows phone but switched back to Android because of app availability, and I can't imagine that situation will improve if they cut it down to a few phones.

I bought a Lumia 520 for $50 off contract. What a great little device! My app needs are meager but when basic apps for Google services are not available, that is a killer. That situation indeed will NOT improve with FEWER devices released to market.

 

[Renzatic]

Don't believe it. Microsoft may have some enterprise contracts that require them to produce handsets. Think of the Microsoft Kin. It was discontinued 30 days after it was released to market.

Here's the way I see it. MS has gone on about opening their platform, making it easier for devs to port their software to and from iOS and Android. They've created new SDKs, updated Visual Studios to accommodate them, even restructured their design language to have more in common with the other two. Their efforts from Windows 10 on up have been concentrated around this.

And yet on the eve of Win10 going RTM, not even a couple of weeks away from it going general release, they pull the plug on it all, mooting a goodly chunk of their efforts before it even had the chance to pay off, and giving themselves a healthy heaping of bad publicity at the worst possible moment.

I can gather two things from this.

1. They really are just consolidating their phone line, cutting the excess fat for a more streamlined hardware catalog a'la Apple.

or...

2. They're really, really goddamn stupid.

I guess time will tell.

 

[iSheep5S]

I started with the 630, quite liked it so i went with a 1020. Great phone but what made me come away was the app support. I ask for little.

It's a shame as the OS is well designed and really, an interesting change.

 

[sracer]

Here's the way I see it. MS has gone on about opening their platform, making it easier for devs to port their software to and from iOS and Android. They've created new SDKs, updated Visual Studios to accommodate them, even restructured their design language to have more in common with the other two. Their efforts from Windows 10 on up have been concentrated around this.

And yet on the eve of Win10 going RTM, not even a couple of weeks away from it going general release, they pull the plug on it all, mooting a goodly chunk of their efforts before it even had the chance to pay off, and giving themselves a healthy heaping of bad publicity at the worst possible moment.

I can gather two things from this.

1. They really are just consolidating their phone line, cutting the excess fat for a more streamlined hardware catalog a'la Apple.

or...

2. They're really, really goddamn stupid.

I guess time will tell.

Yes time will tell. But time has also already told some things. This isn't the first time they've done this. It's not even the first time they've done this with their phones.

 

[Renzatic]

Yes time will tell. But time has also already told some things. This isn't the first time they've done this. It's not even the first time they've done this with their phones.

MS does have a pretty cavalier willingness to abandon a product if it doesn't prove itself profitable 15 minutes after launch. But on the other hand, they haven't invested quite as much time, effort, or money into those previous promising failures as they have WP. I mean they've all but regeared Windows for it...

One thing's for sure, we're set for interesting times in MS Land.

 

[spinedoc77]

IMO it's a huge mistake. Microsoft already ceded the mobile market by being dinosaur slow and letting Apple and Google sprint way ahead before they started lightly jogging after them. When Microsoft finally realized how financially huge their mistake was they made more mistakes with windows 8 and windows RT. Now finally when Microsoft seems to have some success and some really really great ideas, surface 3 is finally what it should be without RT, surface Pro 3 is an incredible tablet/laptop, a universal OS and apps to bridge the gap and make sure mobile has lots of apps, continuum for the incredible idea of using your phone as everything, android/ios apps running inside WP, etc etc. At this incredibly critical juncture Microsoft is...well they are quitting again, leaving more Zune like loyal customers by the wayside with empty hands.

The mobile market IS the future, and it goes hand in hand with cloud services and other paid services like office. Microsoft isn't the only cloud service in town, and interestingly enough they really crippled OneDrive in windows 10. Others are getting better and better at offering office suites so MS Office won't always have the success it has now. I think they are lucky that Apple relies on their customers buying 3 devices, but Google is working hard to make Chrome the default desktop solution.

 

[sracer]

IMO it's a huge mistake. Microsoft already ceded the mobile market by being dinosaur slow and letting Apple and Google sprint way ahead before they started lightly jogging after them. When Microsoft finally realized how financially huge their mistake was they made more mistakes with windows 8 and windows RT. Now finally when Microsoft seems to have some success and some really really great ideas, surface 3 is finally what it should be without RT, surface Pro 3 is an incredible tablet/laptop, a universal OS and apps to bridge the gap and make sure mobile has lots of apps, continuum for the incredible idea of using your phone as everything, android/ios apps running inside WP, etc etc. At this incredibly critical juncture Microsoft is...well they are quitting again, leaving more Zune like loyal customers by the wayside with empty hands.

Truth.
I was and still a huge fan of the Zune.

The mobile market IS the future, and it goes hand in hand with cloud services and other paid services like office. Microsoft isn't the only cloud service in town, and interestingly enough they really crippled OneDrive in windows 10. Others are getting better and better at offering office suites so MS Office won't always have the success it has now. I think they are lucky that Apple relies on their customers buying 3 devices, but Google is working hard to make Chrome the default desktop solution.

The biggest clue that Microsoft was backing away from mobile was their releasing of touch-optimized versions of Office for the iPad and Android while Windows, Windows RT, and Windows Phone went without.

On an unrelated note, I'm still a fan of the Surface 2 (RT version)... I just picked up a Surface 2 w/TypeCover and bunch of accessories for $115. LOL

 

[spinedoc77]

Truth.
I was and still a huge fan of the Zune.



The biggest clue that Microsoft was backing away from mobile was their releasing of touch-optimized versions of Office for the iPad and Android while Windows, Windows RT, and Windows Phone went without.

On an unrelated note, I'm still a fan of the Surface 2 (RT version)... I just picked up a Surface 2 w/TypeCover and bunch of accessories for $115. LOL

I thought your biggest complaint with windows tablets was the lack of apps? With RT you really limit yourself.

 

[burgman]

I think the writing is on the wall for windows phones - so sad. Yet in places around the world such as England and Ireland Windows phones have a much larger presence. I saw this tweet by Paul Thurrott.
View attachment 567423

Given Nadellas approach to MS as a software/services company this shouldn't come as a complete surprise and I was expecting them to write off a the billions they paid for Nokia. Still its sad to see it occur and really leaves the consumers with less choices.

Microsoft has nobody to blame except themselves, seems like the old stuffy guard is finally gone. They couldn't accept that the 90's Microsoft domination is gone.

 

[Renzatic]

I'm still thinking they're not abandoning WP entirely, because...

This.

It was on my most used list when I upgraded to the 10166 release. I fired it up, and...there it was. Windows Phone. If they decided to drop the platform, you think they would've told the Windows 10 guys that "hey, maybe we should take all the WP related stuff out from front and center. And, you know, quit making everything in the OS match it stylistically."

...assuming, of course, that there isn't a severe breakdown in the corporate communications chain, or they're not, in fact, really really goddamn stupid.

 

[maflynn]

I'm still thinking they're not abandoning WP entirely, because...

They're scaling it back drastically, I also think the writing is on the wall. As people hear about MS axing so many workers from the phone division they're going to be even more reluctant. Carriers while resistant to sell windows phones now (at least in the US) are going to be even more adverse to sell them.

Then there's Nadella, who never promised a long term strategy for the windows phone platform, just short term.

They had a chance to leverage the windows platform on the mobile market years ago, but that train has left the station. Its now going to be a two horse race (iOS and Android)

 

[sracer]

I thought your biggest complaint with windows tablets was the lack of apps? With RT you really limit yourself.

You missed a key element of my criticism of Windows tablets... it is the lack of touch-optimized Modern UI apps that tarnish the user experience. In that regard, the RT-based Surfaces are no different than the Pro. I have not run across any Modern UI apps that would run on a Pro but not on the RT.

As a limited-function device (rather than all-purpose), the Surface 2 is adequate. It won't replace my Acer Switch, MBA, or iPad... but for those limited use cases, it handles them well.

 

[spinedoc77]

You missed a key element of my criticism of Windows tablets... it is the lack of touch-optimized Modern UI apps that tarnish the user experience. In that regard, the RT-based Surfaces are no different than the Pro. I have not run across any Modern UI apps that would run on a Pro but not on the RT.

As a limited-function device (rather than all-purpose), the Surface 2 is adequate. It won't replace my Acer Switch, MBA, or iPad... but for those limited use cases, it handles them well.

Well you have things like Adobe PhotoShop, which allows you to change the program to become touch friendly for tablets. That's a desktop program that won't run on RT. MS Office also, but that does run on RT right? I would assume Office 2016 would run on RT, although I'm not sure. But I know we've had this conversation before and we have differing viewpoints. I highly prefer full programs optimized for tablet use versus watered down, less functional apps.

But I hear ya, especially if you use your RT for consumption, web browsing and office work, it's probably a great machine for the price. The hardware, form factor, etc are still head and shoulders above anything the OEMs have put out. It seems price is an issue for you and you don't mind losing the windows desktop universe in exchange. That's a HUGE sacrifice for me, but of course our needs are different.