Should I replace iMac with Mac Pro as high schooler?

[Digital Skunk]

- On the Creative Cow forums search this particular topic and you'll find threads on the issue, even some very recent ones helping out young editors. General consensus (including "professionals" in the industry) is that your scratch should always be on a different drive than your boot.

- Read this article by Larry Jordan, probably the most well known "expert"/lecturer of Final Cut.
link

- For 6 months last year I interned for a post house that handled a lot of the promotional content for Disney Channel among other things. Some of the editors were using the extra slots in the Pro as their scratch. Most of them were hooked up to some shared XSAN network using fiber channel. This included just promoted-editors who were working on short spots consisting of only a couple media assets to higher ups working on features. No documentation, but I guess you gotta take my word for it!

- Lastly google Final Cut's user manual and read the sections on "Working on Scratch disks and hard drives" and "Choosing a hard disks."

So it is still recommended that you set your scratch disk to a different drive than your boot os. They tell you that in college... in the post house I worked at... final cut's user manual... and industry experts/pros tell you that too.

All 100% correct. It was the first thing I changed when I started working for my current university. They had the students dumping their projects on the boot drives. 500GB drives with all but 20MB used up, constant crashes and freezes, and of course long lines of students waiting to use the machine they dumped their projects on.

Every student in my school, and all of the others I've worked for, attended, talked to, etc., need to purchase their own scratch disk for both audio and video production.

 

[romezone]

All 100% correct. It was the first thing I changed when I started working for my current university. They had the students dumping their projects on the boot drives. 500GB drives with all but 20MB used up, constant crashes and freezes, and of course long lines of students waiting to use the machine they dumped their projects on.

Every student in my school, and all of the others I've worked for, attended, talked to, etc., needs to purchase their own scratch disk for both audio and video production.

Thanks for reiterating my point. There's also a good chance that this will remedy some of the OP's crashes.

To the Original Poster: I think my posts are getting lost amongst other talk about Thunderbolt and nostalgic memories of others having mac ___ when they were in high school. Bottom line is that you should stick with the iMac you have instead of going through the process of selling it and buying the pro and doing the necessary upgrades. It honestly will be more reasonable in your situation (mostly from a financial standpoint). You will probably have to do upgrades to the pro too. Look at nanofrog's posts, for the details on the financial argument. I have laid out in detail what I think are your options for your budget in a previous post. When you get enough money implement one of these solutions. And they start in the $100 ballpark, so you can probably start now!

 

[JoeG4]

Dang, haters are gonna hate Glad to see some helpful advice in the mess of jealousy and hate

Dude, as much as I love a good Mac Pro there's no way I'd trade a brand new computer (or $1500-ish) for a 3 year old machine. Sure, it may last another 10 years or more, but the power supply may fail and those cost a small fortune to fix.

Get a GOOD external enclosure (FW800 or thunderbolt, whatever, you're talking about 2 hard drives.. they won't saturate the FW800 bus). Then get some good 7200RPM high capacity drives (try searching slickdeals)

 

[risherwood]

I don't know if anyone has asked this of you yet, but where do you store the backups of your projects and files?

One of the things I see my students forgetting often is where they backup files they may be using for their demo reels and archives.

For you, right now in HS your best bet (as you've mentioned) is to stick with the iMac and get the other items that enhance not only the shooting and editing of your craft, but the back end as well. Get your scratch disk, make it as fast as possible and get a backup solution NOW.

After that, you really should work on your T3i, what kind of lens are you using now? What about your tripod and stability options?

Video production is a good deal more than just the edit. But don't worry about all that too much, you've got time to learn. Get those disks in the meantime.

Currently for my t3i I have the kit 18-55mm lens and a canon 1.8 50mm lens. As for my tripod I have an opteka tripod, but its pretty crappy and only cost about $30. I was looking into getting a new tripod/lens but Im just not sure where to go. I was looking at some manfrotto 501's but with the head and legs its like $350 which is alot just for a smoother pans/more stability....any recommendations?

 

[robbie12345]

what are your youtube videos buy the way so we can help you out with the money here at macrumors and tell u how they are

 

[risherwood]

I don't know if anyone has asked this of you yet, but where do you store the backups of your projects and files?

One of the things I see my students forgetting often is where they backup files they may be using for their demo reels and archives.

For you, right now in HS your best bet (as you've mentioned) is to stick with the iMac and get the other items that enhance not only the shooting and editing of your craft, but the back end as well. Get your scratch disk, make it as fast as possible and get a backup solution NOW.

After that, you really should work on your T3i, what kind of lens are you using now? What about your tripod and stability options?

Video production is a good deal more than just the edit. But don't worry about all that too much, you've got time to learn. Get those disks in the meantime.

Im not exactly sure where the backups save - just some folder called premiere auto saves somewhere on my internal hdd.

 

[risherwood]

what are your youtube videos buy the way so we can help you out with the money here at macrumors and tell u how they are

Youtube videos are at youtube.com/thatcomedykid

These videos DO NOT come anywhere close to representing my best work it's just me and some friends screwing around and getting paid for it haha.

I can't OFFICIALLY tell you to click to the ads once since it makes us money....but

 

[goMac]

And was that hardware capable of this as you got it?

I ask, as it appears that the OP would need to add upgrades (FB-DIMM's + GPU + storage) with a used 2008 system, and doesn't have sufficient funds to supply them ATM. Or a new machine, since it will be financed with the sale of the iMac.

My G3 needed some upgrades. The Powerbook G4 was maxed, so no possible upgrades.

I still run a 2008 for day to day tasks, and I'm easily considered a pro. Only got 8 gigs of RAM in there, and it runs like a champ. Not sure every poo-pooing the 2008 is justified in doing so. It's a great machine.

I just don't see a base model 2008 being as good as what he has right now. Yes, it would be upgradeable over time, but I'd think it better to keep what he has, and continue to save funds earned with it for a newer system (i.e. buy a new tower when starting college).

If it was an 8 core it would likely be better than the iMac he has now, in addition to being more upgradable.

If buying a new tower is an option at college, it wouldn't be a bad idea, but that's up to the OP. So far the OP hasn't mentioned anything like that.

Then considering that it's only a couple of years until the start of college, it would be better to save until that point and use the funds for a new tower (or newer than 2008 at least).

Just seems a better use of funds by putting it off IMO, particularly when I think of student loans and the potential hardships they can pose (longer-term view of getting the OP through college with sufficient equipment).

Sure, but the equipment is an investment. If the OP thinks he can be making more money now using a Mac Pro, that's more money he has later for a newer machine. It's just a trade off he needs to decide if he wants to make. For example, if I never bought my Power Mac G3 and instead kept saving, I would have never been able to run the software to do software development and buy my Powerbook G4. Buying a new machine now doesn't necessarily means he ends up with less money.

But again, that's something the OP would probably know better about his own situation.

 

[thekev]

I guess you could also add "Macs are good for graphics" and "Photoshop needs a separate scratch disk". Just not very relevant these days.

The scratch disk thing can still apply a little. An SSD can pretty much solve that issue when it is an issue. Users who push around large amounts of data on a laptop (sometimes huge files at 16bpc with a ton of layers) can definitely hit a bottleneck if they're at the typical 8G of ram and half full 2.5" HDD, especially if spotlight isn't restricted from indexing those areas. I only mention this because for photoshop specifically because it's one of those programs that can really vary immensely depending on what you run on it.

I think the photoshop is good for graphics thing lived on quite a lot longer due to industries like publishing having always used macs. Both systems have quirks. I wish Windows didn't try to interject some of those idiotic tablet pc animations when a wacom tablet is plugged in. It's possible to rid yourself of them, but it's not something as simple as a setting. Rather I replaced an .exe file with a blank text file with the same name simply due to lack of a better solution.

 

[toxic]

Currently for my t3i I have the kit 18-55mm lens and a canon 1.8 50mm lens. As for my tripod I have an opteka tripod, but its pretty crappy and only cost about $30. I was looking into getting a new tripod/lens but Im just not sure where to go. I was looking at some manfrotto 501's but with the head and legs its like $350 which is alot just for a smoother pans/more stability....any recommendations?

for tripod legs, try a Manfrotto 190XB or a Slik 700DX Pro. both are around $100 right now. I don't know anything about pan/tilt heads, so I can't help you there.

 

[nanofrog]

I still run a 2008 for day to day tasks, and I'm easily considered a pro. Only got 8 gigs of RAM in there, and it runs like a champ. Not sure every poo-pooing the 2008 is justified in doing so. It's a great machine.

It is, and is a really good value on the used market.

The issue with the OP however, is the budget. If there were sufficient funds to cover the upgrades, and it would be used for a long enough period of time, it could make financial sense (it may be older tech, but it's by no means ready to be completely retired...). It still has at least 2 years left based on a 5 year lifespan, and would last longer than that if down-lined to less demanding uses.

But even if it would be held onto throughout college, the budget issue for upgrades remains ($200 isn't going to get him very far, as the funds from the iMac are likely only to get close to base model at the time <am actually thinking a base Octad>). So it's not unreasonable to expect upgrades, particularly the GPU, which will be a tall order for $200 (i.e. 5770 alone is $249 new from the Apple store).

It's not impossible to find the "perfect deal", but it would take a long time of waiting I think (seller is likely to want more with any upgrades included, or sell the parts off separately and put the OEM parts back in). Maybe it's just me, but it seems good deals are a lot harder to find (rare) on eBay these days.

Sure, but the equipment is an investment.

At this point, I see the investment as education, not income. Yes, he's been able to pick up some funds with it, but it's not the same as a business, where the user already has the education and can devote all of their time to working and trying to locate additional business.

He's still in HS, so between that, learning with whatever equipment he has and other time obligations, time remaining to make an income would be on the low side. So I don't see this as a business investment.

If the OP thinks he can be making more money now using a Mac Pro, that's more money he has later for a newer machine.

This is assuming that the system would be usable within his available budget (sale of the iMac + $200). For me, this is the issue, as a base model would need more in upgrades than is available ATM.

 

[risherwood]

nanofrog do you have an ideas for a video production job so I can make a little money? I was thinking about asking local businesses if they need promos/ads/etc...what do you think?

 

[derbothaus]

The scratch disk thing can still apply a little.

I agree. In heavy use and if you are running into a ceiling it can help yes.
My point was in general basic use you do not need to worry so much about these things.

 

[derbothaus]

- On the Creative Cow forums search this particular topic and you'll find threads on the issue, even some very recent ones helping out young editors. General consensus (including "professionals" in the industry) is that your scratch should always be on a different drive than your boot.

- Read this article by Larry Jordan, probably the most well known "expert"/lecturer of Final Cut.
link

- For 6 months last year I interned for a post house that handled a lot of the promotional content for Disney Channel among other things. Some of the editors were using the extra slots in the Pro as their scratch. Most of them were hooked up to some shared XSAN network using fiber channel. This included just promoted-editors who were working on short spots consisting of only a couple media assets to higher ups working on features. No documentation, but I guess you gotta take my word for it!

- Lastly google Final Cut's user manual and read the sections on "Working on Scratch disks and hard drives" and "Choosing a hard disks."

So it is still recommended that you set your scratch disk to a different drive than your boot os. They tell you that in college... in the post house I worked at... final cut's user manual... and industry experts/pros tell you that too.

Yes. I have read most of Mr. Jordan's offerings and he is an invaluable source.
I AM a professional, I build and maintain the machines that editors use (please take my word for it as well). There is no question that you need to free up resources if you have a stock 7200RPM HDD to a scratch or 2nd HDD. Not because FCP demands it but because your project may. Everyone just assumes you are using slow single HDD's so the documentation is written for the masses. Luckily most of my users have 32 head fibre attached RAID's so performance on scratch streams is not really a problem. I guess I am in agreement in certain context. I'm just used to working with very high end latest greatest type kit so the limitations get forgotten along the way.

 

[nanofrog]

I was thinking about asking local businesses if they need promos/ads/etc...what do you think?

It's certainly worth trying, and shows initiative IMO. Just take some examples of your work, and be professional (brush up with web resources on interviews, as you might do/say things you don't realize would cost you a job).

Good luck.

 

[xxmarkc]

>Hey everyone this is my first post and I wanted to get some opinions.
>Currently I'm 16 years old and I have a 2011 base iMac with 12gb ram that i
>purchased a few months ago.

Sorry for hijacking the thread but I just had to comment:

Sometimes I wish I was born 16 years ago not 50 years ago. When I was 16 I have to work all summer holidays to earn £200 to buy my first computer. It was a Nascom I and you had to solder all the components on the PCB yourself. You had to source a monitor, and build you own power supply, and case to put is all in. You had 1k of RAM and 1k of Video RAM and you had to program it in Z80 machine code. You could write you programs to cassette tape.


Well it's not like it was by any means easy for me. I had to work ALOT to get the 2000 or so it cost for my imac+software+ram. It's not like my parents give me anything, I worked all the time doing minimum wage jobs for neighbors, and that sort of stuff. It's not like it's "easy" to get an imac but I do agree with what your saying about how once you get the actual computer, its far easier to do things today.

Interesting to hear you had a similar experience to me saving up for you iMac. I guess with 35 years of inflation my 200 is same order of magnitude as your 2000!

My first computer was enough to get me interested in studying Computer Science at university - it will be interesting to see how yours influences you study decisions.

 

[thekev]

I agree. In heavy use and if you are running into a ceiling it can help yes.
My point was in general basic use you do not need to worry so much about these things.

I think I'm just paranoid about people reading these things too literally. I know that several people on here have run into issues like this, where photoshop/illustrator/insert adobe product was running slow without putting much pressure on the cpu, then the question is always if they need a new computer. Then there's the frequent misunderstandings over what an SSD will and will not do. I didn't mean to nitpick your post at all. It's good information. I write based on an assumption of highly stratified levels of comprehension among people who read this stuff.

 

[snberk103]

Well the seller of the mac pro 2008 does have 2 year apple care on it, but that's beside the point since I think I will stick with my iMac but simply get an external drive...So if I edit on premiere pro and it runs pretty smoothly, why would I even need to worry about have project files and scratch disk on different hard drives? I mainly just want storage to keep files Im not using, but if it will speed up the editing process even further, that would be great

I would confirm that AppleCare, should you go that route. AppleCare is only good for 3 years, so 2008 +3 years equals an expiry in 2011. Unless, they bought a new or refurbished 2008 machine in early 2011 or late 2010. Possible, I suppose since they are still selling earl 2009 machines on the refurbished store. But - in the event you go with a Mac Pro, double check the AppleCare. Also, make sure you can't get a better deal by going to the refurbished store yourself.

Personally, I think you will be better off with the iMac and lots of external storage.

 

[derbothaus]

I think I'm just paranoid about people reading these things too literally. I know that several people on here have run into issues like this, where photoshop/illustrator/insert adobe product was running slow without putting much pressure on the cpu, .

That is most likely Adobe's bad coding. The majority of the design apps only use 1-2 cores and freak out on many tasks. The higher the frequency the better. Usually an SSD can help out with the atrocious save times etc. Normally they are not even close to memory starved and there is usually plenty of overhead available. Just sad to witness.

 

[thekev]

That is most likely Adobe's bad coding. The majority of the design apps only use 1-2 cores and freak out on many tasks. The higher the frequency the better. Usually an SSD can help out with the atrocious save times etc. Normally they are not even close to memory starved and there is usually plenty of overhead available. Just sad to witness.

It's pretty old code. I know in photoshop depending on settings and stuff there are things that can lag it that are disk related. Save times there are influenced considerably by layer compression. Waiting on a single core task compressing layers is maddening. If you disable layer compression on a truly huge file, it loses a lot of the cpu bottleneck, but you instead end up being limited by the disk which now has to save a much larger file.

For some tasks, scratch drives can make a difference. When it has to refresh a histogram + navigator palette and a hundred thumbnails, it'll end up constantly writing data to disk with practically every action. If you run into the spotlight issue where spotlight is then attempting to index said data, things can slow down dramatically. You hit the same issue with layer compression turned on with a save. In doing all the compression, it writes a lot of scratch data, and spotlight notices that data, then it's trying to write this data to disk as well. When you see a really slowly creeping bar in that program, it's often related to these problems. The old code thing is an issue with a lot of programs from the 1990s. They have gone back and rewritten some code, but many of these are not the programs they would be if they were written from the ground up today.

By the way, some of what I said fits with an SSD helping with atrocious save times. The spotlight + heavy scratch disk use during layer compression thing would benefit heavily from an SSD, even if you weren't saving to the SSD.

 

[snberk103]

... As for my tripod I have an opteka tripod, but its pretty crappy and only cost about $30. I was looking into getting a new tripod/lens but Im just not sure where to go. I was looking at some manfrotto 501's but with the head and legs its like $350 which is alot just for a smoother pans/more stability....any recommendations?

Buy used. If you know your way around a tripod, then they're easy to check out... just open all the legs and play with all the different functions. A tripod that isn't too banged up still has years and years of life in it.

Also, tripod heads and tripod legs are connected by one of two standard bolt sizes, generally. This means that 1) you can mix head/legs brands if you like one brand of legs and another brand for heads. 2) You can find really cheap broken tripods, salvage the head or legs, and match with unbroken part of another really cheap tripod being sold as broken.

Luck.

 

[highdefw]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

I know you want one really bad, and can certainly put it to good use, but if I were you, wait until college. Save up for upgrades (cheaper hard drives later!) and possibly a newer machine. I went from shooting on a silly Sony handycam for my local library to doing VFX post work on RED/Arri footage for TV Shows and Sundance films (and I'm a sophomore in college!). I'm glad I was forced to wait. Hang in there for as long as you can until you really need the luxury of a Mac Pro. It will be worth it!

 

[Digital Skunk]

Currently for my t3i I have the kit 18-55mm lens and a canon 1.8 50mm lens. As for my tripod I have an opteka tripod, but its pretty crappy and only cost about $30. I was looking into getting a new tripod/lens but Im just not sure where to go. I was looking at some manfrotto 501's but with the head and legs its like $350 which is alot just for a smoother pans/more stability....any recommendations?

I would start with B&H Photo Video or preferably your local mom and pop camera store. For video, I'd go with anything that has a good fluid head, even if it's a generic pair is sticks and no ball level for $100. If you want something that will last and don't want to spend over $350 grab the 190XDB with the 501 head for $275 or the same sticks with the 3126 fluid head. The idea being that you can replace the head with better ones as time goes on.

Also the price you pay isn't just for stability and smooth pan/tilts. Its primarily for how much the sticks support and build quality. The ability to adjust tension and how high the legs extend are my next criteria, then it's how fast I can deply the sticks to full height and other considerations.

Im not exactly sure where the backups save - just some folder called premiere auto saves somewhere on my internal hdd.

Yup they save the auto-saves there. Definitely checkout a good FW800 scratch disk and a huge USB drive for backing up everything on your system, project files, raw media, and your main system as well.

I've been down the pro tower road, and right now as it stands I actually have been convinced of the merits of a 27" iMac as an editing rig. The only downside being the lack of future upgrades. Max it out now and learn how to service it yourself and it's a viable machine for even the advanced freelancer. I can even plug Fibre Channel into the thing thanks to CalDigit.