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It is a temporary deal.

It might be temporary, but that's still a thing. Work has to get done during "temporary".

What matters is what customers want. The completely oxymoronic thing with CUDA is folks who throw it up as enabler of and/or or example of choice when it has exactly the opposite objective and implementation/effect. CUDA always was tarpit designed by Nvidia.

More than a few customers do want choice. CUDA doesn't enable that. Yes it has a larger inertia. That isn't going to last forever it customer choice is the dominate market force.

CUDA doesn't mean choice, but an nVidia card does. It allows a migration toward OpenCL without being completely screwed in the interim. Just like moving from Flash to HTML5 wasn't a clean process, neither will that migration, and the new Mac Pro isn't necessarily going to help with that transition.

Beyond that, I just liked the flexibility. AMD not doing it for you? Switch. Want something nVidia isn't offering? Switch.
 
Seems like a pretty big step back if so...

It just means they aren't increasing the number of cores on this model. 1 chip with 12 cores vs 2 chips with a combined 12 cores. future models will likely increase the core count.
 
There's no adapter. Thunderbolt is PCI/E on a cable. A Firewire interface through Thunderbolt is as good as a Firewire card plugged into the current Mac Pro.

Well someone forgot to tell the folks over at UAD then.
 
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Again, that may be the case. And if it is, great. Right now, CUDA has the inertia as you mention. OpenCL doesn't. Yet. And while we wait for the "yet", it's a big deal to buy a new Mac Pro that doesn't support CUDA.
That is pretty much where I stand on it. CUDA has nVidia behind it. AMD finally picked up with Llano (2011) in leveraging and promoting OpenCL. Apple rides along but you only mention them around here.
 
Really don't get all the shots of no CUDA when no one knows the final spec, and I would be willing to bet the final spec has a NVIDIA CUDA CAPABLE CARD!

I get saying why did they only show AMD I want CUDA, but everyone needs to stop assuming No CUDA and NVIDIA, if its a do or die deal for you to have CUDA on the new Mac Pro make sure Apple hears you by contacting them and explaining your need and having your opinion known. Consumer demand will fuel results, and this should be voiced directly to Apple to be effective.

I am sure if the pro community directly tells apple its a make or break proposition to have NVIDIA CUDA apple will find a way to make it happen. (Honestly I would believe they already have and you will see 780/Titan as options)

I for one really want a new Mac Pro, but unfortunately the ability to afford it will be out of my reach for a while. I hope price stays reasonable.
 
Well it would be nice if they had the same configuration but an option for 3 CPU daughtercards. Just remove the 2 Fire Pros and install 2 more CPU cards. GPU upgrades will be external anyways, especially if someone is wanting Cuda.

36 cores and 72 threads for awesome raw power :D
 
Me. eSATA is considerably more ubiquitous for drive interfaces, and not all professional work involves plugging in a camera.

For PC's yes.
So which Mac's offer eSATA out of the box? None.
Only a few Pro models with express slots and PCI expansion can use it.
You must be pretty young as eSATA was not even around when FW800 was kicking not to mention FW400. eSATA spec was not finalized till 2004. Firewire was rocking during Serial and PATA that is why I said "..using OS X for even a few years" I consider 9 years a few. It is still used to record tons of mobile audio and the bigger deal, carries power over it's cable. Yes it is slower but not ever having used it means you either are super young or came from PC land. No gripes or anything just that it is a hell of a lot more useful than just rating it's sequential transfer speed for hard disks (oh, and camera's. Which usually only use FW400)
Before the pissing match starts I use eSATA quite extensively.
 
If you're working on custom applications that require lots of parallel computation, I think the general trend there is towards GPGPU work, which is where Apple put most of their emphasis with this new design.

If 12 cores is woefully inadequate, then I don't know how much of a difference 24 cores would make for you. If you need something with way more than 12 x86 cores then it sounds like a workload that may be better suited for a cluster setup.

To be fair, the # of cores is not the only factor. 2 6-core CPUs can actually perform differently than 1 12-core CPU. For starters most multi-core CPUs share at least one level of cache(Ivy Bridge's share the L3 cache, though rumor has it the newest generation will have a 30 mb L3 cache, a pretty big increase). The shared cache means that there is less cache overall, and more potential contention among the cores for the cache. On the other hand, you don't have to deal with the overhead of keeping the caches in sync between the 2 CPUs(though modern OSes and CPUs do a pretty good job of this, so it's not a huge deal).

2 CPUs do tend to be faster, esp. for memory-bound applications, but unless you are doing really intensive scientific computations I don't think you will see a significant difference.
 
Also, the Ivy Bridge E5 Xeons go up to 12 cores on a single chip, the same as the old Mac Pro had with two chips.

If they're E5 2400 chips, it will still be extremely expensive with Apple markups.

Easily done:

Goodbye FW800! I never knew you, I never used you, and you will NOT be missed.

I used it, but it was a poor solution in general. Most firewire peripherals in recent years also included usb. This often meant usb2, but if you're lacking a firewire port, it prevents losing all access to that data without the use of dongle farms.

Out of curiosity, what do people do with 24 processor cores? I remember a documentary about South Park where they said the entire show is animated and rendered on regular iMacs. 4K video editing can put a lot of stress on a computer but it looks like the new Pro was designed specifically for that.

If you look at South Park, you'll see a lot of solid color shaders and blocky characters that lack smooth deformation or movement. That's about the simplest possible thing to render. They've been quite successful with that style, and there's nothing wrong with it. It is a poor benchmark for render times though.
 
I still use FW800 from time to time. While my use of eSATA has almost completely overshadowed it, it's not quite dead to me yet. I still receive drives from clients that are FireWire based. So, it's still a necessity for me to have it. But do I prefer using it over eSATA? Hell no.
 
Heh. I've been rockin FW800 since 2003. Can't stand USB. I'll miss it when I eventually upgrade.

Ya, USB is good for mice, KBs and thumb drives. eSATA is where it's at for I/O IMO - cheaper than dirt and faster than sh..avingcream. Next comes the GB Ethernet NICs. And anything slower than that, ya, it probably only needs USB. FW was a huge waste. Apple and all their users would have been better served from day-one had they jumped that MB SATA connector and port-multiplied it by 4 out the back. And then not spent a single dime on FW.

But I guess, whatever, some hobby-level videophiles got good use from it in the early daze. :p
 
Lacie Rugged drives are still very commonplace in the video world, the rubber orange ones. I've started to see a few USB3 ones circulating, but I still get the firewire800 ones 9 times out of 10. Not everyone has USB3 hardware and transferring at USB2 sucks.
 
Lacie Rugged drives are still very commonplace in the video world, the rubber orange ones. I've started to see a few USB3 ones circulating, but I still get the firewire800 ones 9 times out of 10. Not everyone has USB3 hardware and transferring at USB2 sucks.

We bought 26 of those for the two motion graphics labs at the college I teach at and about 8 of them died over the first year under minimal use. I've had the worst luck with LaCie drives over the years.
 
So which Mac's offer eSATA out of the box? None.

With the exception of the Mac Pro, all Macs offer USB3, which also works as a substitute, and for that matter none of them have FW800 anymore without buying at least an additional dongle.

That's what I'm saying - FW800, which a perfectly fine port (I used FW400 back in the day for some things) is pretty far from ubiquitous, and I'd rather purchase a USB3/eSATA enclosure to make sure it can plug into something other than the Pro.

You must be pretty young as eSATA was not even around when FW800 was kicking not to mention FW400. eSATA spec was not finalized till 2004. Firewire was rocking during Serial and PATA that is why I said "..using OS X for even a few years" I consider 9 years a few. It is still used to record tons of mobile audio and the bigger deal, carries power over it's cable. Yes it is slower but not ever having used it means you either are super young or came from PC land.

What an absurd comment. Someone doesn't have the same workflow as you, so they must be young or an OS X novice? All that from the assertion that at this point its entirely possible to be a professional user of a Mac Pro and not find any particular use from FW800 ports?

Fine. I'm 29. I've got a PhD. My first Mac was an LC running System 7. I've owned a Performa 400 (piece of crap), a Powerbook 5300 (the model that didn't catch on fire), a Power Computing Power Tower Pro 250, a Titanium Powerbook, an Aluminum Powerbook that was the last of the non-Intel machines. It's still kicking, or was when I hauled it to Uganda as a computer where I wouldn't be terribly upset if it was stolen or Kampala's electrical grid fried it, the Core 2 Duo Macbook Pro, a Mac Pro and a Macbook Pro Retina. Only two of those got any real use out of the single Firewire peripheral I've had all that time, an ancient (though it was badass at the time) Firewire-based 40 gig Western Digital drive.

No gripes or anything just that it is a hell of a lot more useful than just rating it's sequential transfer speed for hard disks (oh, and camera's. Which usually only use FW400)
Before the pissing match starts I use eSATA quite extensively.

So were you paying attention at all when I added the caveat "And don't use cameras". Because there are pros who aren't taking video. The only use I have for FW800 is its transfer speed, and there's more ubiquitously available substitutes that I've never, ever had cause to use a FW800 port.
 
^^^USB does not work as a substitute where latency is concerned. eSATA was never offered on a Mac (reiterate for clarity). The fact that you are using Firewire's demise as a comparison is not accurate at all. One=never, the other=10+ years on all products. I think we have hit total misunderstanding.
What the heck did you use to move data in and out of your earlier Mac's if not for firewire? USB 1.1? 10T ethernet? You did use Firewire but commented that you didn't. That was it, my point. "Who hasn't"?. Have you used FW? You currently don't use it. But at some point you did. Easy. Not at all how your initial post came across.
 
With the exception of the Mac Pro, all Macs offer USB3, which also works as a substitute, and for that matter none of them have FW800 anymore without buying at least an additional dongle.

mbp2012-step1-macbookpro-con-13
 
^^^USB does not work as a substitute where latency is concerned. eSATA was never offered on a Mac (reiterate for clarity). The fact that you are using Firewire's demise as a comparison is not accurate at all. One=never, the other=10+ years on all products. I think we have hit total misunderstanding.

I suppose I was a bit unclear in my first post - I should have said "Every transfer technology I can think of is considerably more ubiquitous for drive interfaces, and not all professional work involves plugging in a camera." I picked eSATA because I'd argue its the one most directly analogous to the drive interface role of FW800 (in contrast to the camera interface, which is even less relevant to me).

USB3 works well enough for straight data transfer, and I find USB or eSATA to be sufficiently more ubiquitous that I'd never choose Firewire over them - the odds of me being the only one in the room with a FW800 port are just too high. Though honestly, I can't remember the last time I had to hook up an external drive to my machine heftier than a thumb drive.

What the heck did you use to move data in and out of your earlier Mac's if not for firewire? USB 1.1? 10T ethernet? You did use Firewire but commented that you didn't. That was it, my point. "Who hasn't"?. Have you used FW? You currently don't use it. But at some point you did. Easy. Not at all how your initial post came across.

I say I didn't use Firewire 800, which was in response to your original post..."Seriously, who has been on OS X professionally for even a few years and not use FW800?" I used an original Firewire 400-based drive, back when it was just called "Firewire" for...a year or two? Ironically, this was during the period where I wouldn't really have called myself a "professional" user.

Most of the file transfer I did was over Ethernet of progressively faster speeds, with a smattering of burned CDs, then DVDs, and now a USB3 drive for the laptop for a backup drive. I've never had a file transfer from the Mac Pro to something that didn't go over the network, or wasn't served well enough by a thumb drive. The few times I've been given a drive and needed to read off it, it's been either USB or eSATA based - I've never, ever had a collaborator come to me with a FW800 drive.

This is largely because my professional use of the Mac Pro doesn't create large data files. Nearly everything I do takes a data file of modest size, does something absolutely horrific to it that makes a number of very large files written to disk, and then gets boiled back down to a single file that's usually fairly small. If I have to save and transfer something large enough to really want a FW800 drive, I've probably done something wrong.

My only assertion is my usual pushback on here - whenever someone says "How can you not do $thingIdo and be a professional user?" there are use cases where $thingIdo doesn't come up. That's all. I could care less about FW800 - or indeed Thunderbolt and the loss of internal drives, which I'd place as "Irksome, but not fatal". I care rather more about the processor, RAM and GPU.


You're correct, I did utterly forget the old form factor Macbook Pros. Mea culpa.
 
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Not all of us just *use* software. Some of us make it. Some of us make it with CUDA, which is the dominant language for HPC.

And this is the center of the debate. Who should Apple build a Mac Pro for?

I'd argue that HPC is nowhere on their list. Many of the things that have been pushed here by one user or another are not on their list. Now that does not imply that those things are not important to that user, but that they are not important to Apple. If for example you want to do HPC, I'd be looking at Linux or Windows HPC. Apple is just not in to that.

Apple is not a niche computer vendor, they are a volume vendor. They try to hit the just right spot of high end but also higher volume.

As Alex Lindsey has stated many times on MacBreak Weekly: "Apple is a 90 90 company" They want to meet 90% of the needs of 90% of people.

The last 10% of needs is too expensive for them as a volume vendor. As are the last 10% of people!

One last comment-Apple does not make the Mac Pro for you to play games on- it is the Mac PRO as in Mac Professional after all.
 
We bought 26 of those for the two motion graphics labs at the college I teach at and about 8 of them died over the first year under minimal use. I've had the worst luck with LaCie drives over the years.

You're not the only one. I'll never get a LaCie again either. Isn't "LaCie" French for SuckyTrash? Pretty sure it is. :D
 
You're not the only one. I'll never get a LaCie again either. Isn't "LaCie" French for SuckyTrash? Pretty sure it is. :D

The feedback I got from a Mac Tech guy is the problem is Lacie's enclosures are flawed and not the hard drive. They get a handful of warranty claims from Lacie users.
 
Seems like a pretty big step back if so...

Where are you guys getting the idea that there will only be single processor models? They just teased us with a video and threw some specs out there but I don't recall any mention of it only coming in a single processor version. There's still an awful lot we don't know about this box.
 
Where are you guys getting the idea that there will only be single processor models?

Based on all of the technical details and photographs of the hardware. If dual GPUs are standard, that means the 3rd PCB is the only one left for a CPU. And it's clearly too small for 2 CPUs to sit on it. That and there's no room left for 4 more DIMMs.

"We're going to need a bigger" cylinder for a second CPU.
 
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