So did Apple give up on gaming?

[KatieKat1942]

I mean real gaming. Games like Cyberpunk, borderlands, fall cry 6, final fantasy XIV, world of Warcraft, minecraft… Not these arcade “games”.

It’s great their chips are faster and reduced power usage but compatibility matters. No nvidia discrete graphics card option is a mistake. A lot of software is only compatible with Intel/AMD chips. Software used in businesses where upgrading or finding alternative options that work with M1 isn’t an option.

It looks like Apple is more centered around the Hollywood/movie/music industry and not the business+gaming market which is a huge mistake to be a niche product. It’s also becoming harder and harder for enterprise businesses to manage their Mac fleet.

Is this experience shared or is my assertion mistaken? What has your experience been with these M1 chips in the business sector? Are there real games that work with M1 chips? Maybe I’m ignorant on the topic.

This isn’t my first post but it is. Had to make a new account for some reason.

 

[jav6454]

Your assertions are based on what exactly? Care to give specific examples on business or software?

 

[mi7chy]

It's really up to the developers and not Apple.

 

[Krevnik]

I mean real gaming. Games like Cyberpunk, borderlands, fall cry 6, final fantasy XIV, world of Warcraft, minecraft… Not these arcade “games”.

The thing is, if developers weren't porting to the Mac before, there's not a whole lot Apple can do to convince them beyond just giving up and shipping Windows on the things.

FFXIV in particular only barely supports the Mac with a WINE-like wrapper, sapping performance. Minecraft isn't exactly a heavy game to run, and the Java version runs fine on the Mac, if you ignore the fact that the Java version is also a bit of a boat anchor of a game with shader mods on Windows too. WoW is about the only game on the list that has made a good effort to run on the Mac, and it does a reasonable job.

The rest are games that followed the money and stayed Windows only to my knowledge. In which case, my first paragraph applies.

It's clear from Apple's GPU work today (10 TFlop GPU in 55W) that they are doing some good work here in the space. That said, I think the phrase "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" applies to these "AAA" games and the Mac. Especially the US/Europe developers have long since moved to a model of "it makes gobs of money, or else", which tends to preclude them from even thinking about the Mac. Maybe that changes, but it'll be a long slog. It probably doesn't help that Unreal Engine is very popular right now, and Epic is currently in the middle of a tantrum (along with Apple) over that super lucrative micro-transaction money on iOS. Epic has to hunt those "whales".

As it is, I've mostly just moved to other devices for gaming, and use my Mac for everything else. But I will play the indie titles that show up on my Mac if the mood strikes.

 

[KatieKat1942]

Your assertions are based on what exactly? Care to give specific examples on business or software?

For business software there’s Jamf, sketch, java, global protect VPN, snag it, crowdstrike, office 365 apps for enterprise, Veeam Mac backup agent, webex, teams, jet brains products like Rubymine… I think there are others. Mimecast might be one. There’s also the adobe suite but Adobe has an M1 version if I recall.

edit: Slack is another app that might not work with the M1 chip.

 

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

They can't give up on something they didn't start.

 

[larsth]

Your assertions are based on what exactly? Care to give specific examples on business or software?

Intel does not like the specs for the M1 Pro, and M1 Max.

He's from Intel Damage Control, which are desperate to find anything that can - somehow - make Intel chips look better

 

[JMacHack]

I mean real gaming. Games like Cyberpunk, borderlands, fall cry 6, final fantasy XIV, world of Warcraft, minecraft… Not these arcade “games”.

It’s great their chips are faster and reduced power usage but compatibility matters. No nvidia discrete graphics card option is a mistake. A lot of software is only compatible with Intel/AMD chips. Software used in businesses where upgrading or finding alternative options that work with M1 isn’t an option.

It looks like Apple is more centered around the Hollywood/movie/music industry and not the business+gaming market which is a huge mistake to be a niche product. It’s also becoming harder and harder for enterprise businesses to manage their Mac fleet.

Is this experience shared or is my assertion mistaken? What has your experience been with these M1 chips in the business sector? Are there real games that work with M1 chips? Maybe I’m ignorant on the topic.

This isn’t my first post but it is. Had to make a new account for some reason.

Prove you’re not a shill, say something like “Alder Lake is a joke and Intel is run by clowns”

 

[Jorbanead]

I mean real gaming. Games like Cyberpunk, borderlands, fall cry 6, final fantasy XIV, world of Warcraft, minecraft… Not these arcade “games”.

It’s great their chips are faster and reduced power usage but compatibility matters. No nvidia discrete graphics card option is a mistake. A lot of software is only compatible with Intel/AMD chips. Software used in businesses where upgrading or finding alternative options that work with M1 isn’t an option.

It looks like Apple is more centered around the Hollywood/movie/music industry and not the business+gaming market which is a huge mistake to be a niche product. It’s also becoming harder and harder for enterprise businesses to manage their Mac fleet.

Is this experience shared or is my assertion mistaken? What has your experience been with these M1 chips in the business sector? Are there real games that work with M1 chips? Maybe I’m ignorant on the topic.

This isn’t my first post but it is. Had to make a new account for some reason.

It’s suspicious your account is only 37 minutes old. It’s all on the developers what they want to do. At this point it’s clear these MacBooks have plenty of power to run demanding games.

 

[GhostRaider]

These new Macbook Pros are actually very well capable of running the latest games. But only if a developer ports it to macOS for the time being. I do hope maybe at some point Linux can work on these machines and utilize the full power of the M1.

 

[1am0]

just take one thing into your mind:
laptops from apple are for creative people, not for "content consumers".
you have a powerful beast in your pocket. create something new instead of gaming
peace.

 

[KatieKat1942]

The thing is, if developers weren't porting to the Mac before, there's not a whole lot Apple can do to convince them beyond just giving up and shipping Windows on the things.

FFXIV in particular only barely supports the Mac with a WINE-like wrapper, sapping performance. Minecraft isn't exactly a heavy game to run, and the Java version runs fine on the Mac, if you ignore the fact that the Java version is also a bit of a boat anchor of a game with shader mods on Windows too. WoW is about the only game on the list that has made a good effort to run on the Mac, and it does a reasonable job.

The rest are games that followed the money and stayed Windows only to my knowledge. In which case, my first paragraph applies.

It's clear from Apple's GPU work today (10 TFlop GPU in 55W) that they are doing some good work here in the space. That said, I think the phrase "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" applies to these "AAA" games and the Mac. Especially the US/Europe developers have long since moved to a model of "it makes gobs of money, or else", which tends to preclude them from even thinking about the Mac. Maybe that changes, but it'll be a long slog. It probably doesn't help that Unreal Engine is very popular right now, and Epic is currently in the middle of a tantrum (along with Apple) over that super lucrative micro-transaction money on iOS. Epic has to hunt those "whales".

As it is, I've mostly just moved to other devices for gaming, and use my Mac for everything else. But I will play the indie titles that show up on my Mac if the mood strikes.

That’s the thing though is developers can’t develop on the Mac if they’re not going to use industry standards. Development is very expensive as it is to develope these games for xbox, playstation, and windows PC. All of which uses the same x86 architecture and AMD/Nvidia GPUs. Then Apple comes out with a custom chip and GPU that isn’t standard and would cost a lot to port over. In my view that’s why we aren’t seeing that many games because they aren’t within the standard model. Plus trust plays a role. You’re right the relation between Epic and Apple isn’t good for Apple in my view. The ‘AAA’ gaming industry is a multi-billion dollar market.

Then there’s the issue with apps and custom home-built apps that companies will eventually port over to support the M1 chip I’m sure of it. However that’s likely going to be a separate product or upgrade. Enterprise product upgrades are expensive.

I just feel Apple is out of touch with reality essentially when it comes to computers. I love their iPhones/iPads/Apple Watch/air pods - I own all of these lol. I own apple stocks. Just their computer lineup is just severely lacking when it comes to business enterprise compatibility and gaming that makes their prices a bit ridiculous.

The company I work at will buy one to test. Hopefully everything will work. If not I dunno what we’re going to do because Apple doesn’t have an Intel option.

 

[Feyl]

Apple gave up on gaming a long long time ago while Steve Jobs was still there. If you know who John Carmack is then you know. If you don't know this legend I recommend to research him and this topic and his relationship with Steve. That will tell you everything you need to know about how seriously Apple takes gaming. I doubt something will ever change on this front regardless of who will lead Apple.

 

[KatieKat1942]

These new Macbook Pros are actually very well capable of running the latest games. But only if a developer ports it to macOS for the time being. I do hope maybe at some point Linux can work on these machines and utilize the full power of the M1.

It’s not just the OS though. It’s the chip itself. You can have the most amazing fastest chip possible but if the enterprise apps can’t be ported over because of apps design then the chip is irrelevant. Developers won’t develop for a chip that’s brand new and no port tools available from apple.

 

[AHDuke99]

It's the userbase more than anything that is holding Mac games back. It's likely not profitable enough for most developers to spend time and sources on porting a game to the Mac when the mac gaming community is not all that big. Mac gaming seemed to pick up early in the Intel days, but maybe developers never saw an increase in sales and decided to stop producing Mac games. Blizzard comes to mind as they are no longer really producing mac games.

 

[KatieKat1942]

Prove you’re not a shill, say something like “Alder Lake is a joke and Intel is run by clowns”

I own Apple stock and Intel stock. I own more apple stocks than Intel stocks

 

[JMacHack]

I own Apple stock and Intel stock. I own more apple stocks than Intel stocks

I didn’t ask you to say that, tell me something like “Pat Gelsinger is a moron”

 

[KatieKat1942]

It's the userbase more than anything that is holding Mac games back. It's likely not profitable enough for most developers to spend time and sources on porting a game to the Mac when the mac gaming community is not all that big. Mac gaming seemed to pick up early in the Intel days, but maybe developers never saw an increase in sales and decided to stop producing Mac games. Blizzard comes to mind as they are no longer really producing mac games.

I would argue that has to do with the lack of advertisements and general awareness. If people want to game they buy PCs. it would take Apple to shift the paradigm and produce gaming laptops then advertise it. People would probably flock to it. People buy into windows because it’s the only option.

 

[JMacHack]

People buy into windows because it’s the only option.

Linux and Proton sends regards.

 

[KatieKat1942]

I didn’t ask you to say that, tell me something like “Pat Gelsinger is a moron”

Lol Pat Gelsinger is a moron - I don’t even know who that is. I have an AMD gaming rig, with a nvidia graphics card and an intel laptop.

I don’t buy into this company fanboy thing. It’s stupid lol. if you like the product buy it if not move on. This fanboy stuff is silly but I get it. I use to be an intel fanboy until I bought an AMD rig. I mean my servers at work are all Intel because Intel makes superior server chips with their Xeon lineup.

 

[KatieKat1942]

Linux and Proton sends regards.

Oh ya true - looking into trying Linux Mint to see how that works but haven’t had a chance.

 

[Krevnik]

That’s the thing though is developers can’t develop on the Mac if they’re not going to use industry standards. Development is very expensive as it is to develope these games for xbox, playstation, and windows PC. All of which uses the same x86 architecture and AMD/Nvidia GPUs. Then Apple comes out with a custom chip and GPU that isn’t standard and would cost a lot to port over. In my view that’s why we aren’t seeing that many games because they aren’t within the standard model. Plus trust plays a role. You’re right the relation between Epic and Apple isn’t good for Apple in my view. The ‘AAA’ gaming industry is a multi-billion dollar market.

What industry standards are those?

Nvidia and AMD aren't standards, they are brands. OpenGL and Vulkan are, but there's not enough support from them to make any real movement in the market these days. Direct3D is not a standard, but wholly a Microsoft API. CUDA isn't a standard either, and Nvidia intentionally uses their strength there as a bludgeon against competitors. D3D isn't as aggressively used as a bludgeon, but its existence and popularity over the years creates inertia among developers.

"Porting to M1" when talking about graphics is really just making sure your stuff uses Metal properly, or that if you are on Vulkan, you use MoltenVK. And if you are working with modern D3D code, Metal is easier to port to than OpenGL. Metal is also more performant on Macs (Intel and ARM) than OpenGL. So Apple has been making strides here. But again, the "lead a horse to water" comment still applies.

x86 isn't a standard either, so much as "everyone uses it". Apple can't design a new x86 chip, and AMD only is able to due to some legal fun that happened years ago. There's more competitive diversity in the ARM space today than x86 that in my mind makes ARM a healthier ecosystem than x86, but x86 does has inertia on it's side.

The difficulty porting to macOS is, and always has been, the fact that it's not Windows. Not because Apple is on PowerPC, or ARM.

 

[JMacHack]

Lol Pat Gelsinger is a moron - I don’t even know who that is. I have an AMD gaming rig, with a nvidia graphics card and an intel laptop.

I don’t buy into this company fanboy thing. It’s stupid lol. if you like the product buy it if not move on. This fanboy stuff is silly but I get it. I use to be an intel fanboy until I bought an AMD rig. I mean my servers at work are all Intel because Intel makes superior server chips with their Xeon lineup.

CEO of Intel, that satisfies me that you’re not here to astroturf if you’re willing to post that he’s a window licking idiot.

As far as “ReAl GaMeS”, who cares? Gamers are morons who will mock Mac users for spending lots of money on macs, then turn around and pay mid-four-digit prices for graphics cards. Or anything that has tacky RGB.

All of the software I use at work (desktop publishing) already works on Apple Silicon. And as far as I can tell other enterprise software that supported x86 Macs aren’t far behind.

 

[Bodhitree]

It's a fair question. I think the answer is that the Mac was never really intended for games, and the Apple Silicon platform is as good for business as the Intel Macs were. The larger movement is of software to go out to the web and data centers, and what matters there is a fast browser. Apple is positioning itself to be relevant in those software sectors which can still make use of a lot of local power.

We are already seeing significant rises in the number of Chromebooks sold, often with bargain basement hardware implementations. A lot more low end business will go in that direction. A lot of gaming is going to be happening on Steam Decks, cloud services, consoles like the Switch and so on.

It looks like Apple is stretching its price range. The 329 euro base iPad is aimed at education and very price sensitive customers, the 4000 euro MacBook Pro with M1 Max and 64 GB of RAM is aimed at serious professionals.

 

[leman]

Well, the hardware is more than fast enough for gaming. The APIs are state of art. It’s up to the users (interest) and the devs. Of course, the developer would target the M1, as it’s the consumer chip, but even that is fast enough. M1 pro should be rivaling any mid-range gaming laptop if the game is optimized properly.