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bocomo

macrumors 6502
Jun 29, 2007
495
0
New York
Beautifully said, Doylem! For me, too, the joy in photography comes from the moments I spend holding a camera in my hands (or on the tripod), making the exposure and savoring what I am seeing through the viewfinder..... I really dislike post-processing, if truth be known. I would be perfectly happy to have someone else do the tedious work of PP, but unfortunately that is the price we pay for the benefits of digital imaging: time spent hunched over a hot computer, bringing to life what we've successfully captured on the memory card......


hey now-i used to spend long hours hunched over trays of chemistry to bring to life what i captured on film!

i can certainly agree with your love of the process of capture. i think there has always been a divide amongst photogs: shooting geeks and darkroom geeks (i've actually been a proud member of both).

i suppose what i really respond to in this type of discussion is the final product. show me something wonderful! i can appreciate the small, quiet moments painstakingly captured as well as elaborate digital compositions. same rules of quality apply...good art or bad art on a case by case basis

it's a great big ol' art world out there
 

mtbdudex

macrumors 68030
Aug 28, 2007
2,830
4,888
SE Michigan
That's a rather depressing quote (for me, at least). My photography is more about seeing than manipulation. Looking is hard work (if you're doing it right...), but the effort pays off. It makes life richer, more meaningful, more creative... and looking through a camera is just one part of this process.

I know what can be done with Photoshop (even if I'm not adept enough to do it myself), and I know too that people seldom know when to stop. Most of the manipulated images I see have simply been 'over-cooked': too much colour manipulation, too dramatic HDR, etc. It becomes like Hollywood car chases: they have to be more and more exciting to stop the audience yawning. The result: we become over-stimulated, but under-nourished... unable to respond to imagery that isn't brash, blatant and eye-poppingly zappy.

My pleasure in photography (mostly landscape) lies in going in the opposite direction: slowing down, learning to be more patient, enjoying the process rather than just looking for 'results' (which, ironically, seems to produce more better pictures, not less). It's looking for subtlety... mostly in what light does to landscape. It's 'reading' the landscape, and responding to it. Post-production is limited to colour correction (rather than colour manipulation) and trying to bring the image back to what I originally saw (particularly in regard to the human eye being able to cope with huge variations in lighting intensity... while digital sensors struggle).

Post-production offers many temptations; how amazing to be able to change an image so dramatically simply by moving a slider left or right (well, it's amazing to those of us brought up on film photography...). But what matters to me is what I originally saw. Instead of spending hours creating masks and layers in Photoshop, I'd rather go to interesting places, sleep in my van, set the alarm for 'early' and have the dawn landscape to myself. The fascination is to try to capture some of what I saw on film (or, now, a digital file).

There's a big difference (IMO) between an image that's seen... and an image that's assembled or heavily manipulated. And too much of one can make it hard to respond to the other. It's like overpowering our taste-buds with glutinous sauces, so we can no longer eat our meals without great dollops of ketchup.

Apologies if this sounds pretentious. It's not meant to be. I just see people getting lost in a world of post-production techniques, and photographs which have a pleasantly glossy sheen but which don't mean anything. :)


I agree every thing you said.

Now, don't mean to hijack this thread.

Would you still consider it to be Photography if:
-You are a very-very busy person, so you are the creative "front end" taking the pictures,capturing "the image", etc.
Then, you send your original picts to some overseas shop (low cost labor) and have them edit/manipulate/tweak/"fix"/etc while you sleep, and next morning day you have "finish" product.

Is that Photography?
 

Doylem

macrumors 68040
Dec 30, 2006
3,858
3,642
Wherever I hang my hat...
Would you still consider it to be Photography if:
-You are a very-very busy person, so you are the creative "front end" taking the pictures,capturing "the image", etc.
Then, you send your original picts to some overseas shop (low cost labor) and have them edit/manipulate/tweak/"fix"/etc while you sleep, and next morning day you have "finish" product.

Is that Photography?

Not too sure about the 'low cost labour', but a lot of pro photographers used to leave the processing and printing to an assistant, or a pro lab, or a specialist printer. Just the same as letting someone else handle the post-production of digital images. It's still photography, IMO...
 

seenew

macrumors 68000
Dec 1, 2005
1,569
1
Brooklyn
Would you still consider it to be Photography if:
-You are a very-very busy person, so you are the creative "front end" taking the pictures,capturing "the image", etc.
Then, you send your original picts to some overseas shop (low cost labor) and have them edit/manipulate/tweak/"fix"/etc while you sleep, and next morning day you have "finish" product.

Is that Photography?
Nothing can salvage an image that was borne of an uninteresting subject and composition, or terrible lighting. When I'm not at school I'm an 'artist retoucher' for a couple of small studios back home. I still very much consider the work I return to my clients to be photography (however boring wedding and sports photos are).

You people that have this idea that photography must result a realistic, documentary image that adheres to some stringent list of rules are just being elitist. Take an art history course and read about late 19th century painting, and how the Salon in France wouldn't recognize anything other than realism or classicism as worthy of being called a painting. Would you, too, say that great impressionists and abstractionists such as Van Gogh, Monet, Renoir, and Degas are not worthy painters?

Get with the times. Photoshop is a new tool in the modern photographer's toolbox, and you can bet that if it were around in earlier times, it would be just as widely used, and you'd all be singing a different song right now.

The development of a medium should not be limited in any way.
 

Father Jack

macrumors 68020
Jan 1, 2007
2,481
1
Ireland
You people that have this idea that photography must result a realistic, documentary image that adheres to some stringent list of rules are just being elitist. Take an art history course and read about late 19th century painting, and how the Salon in France wouldn't recognize anything other than realism or classicism as worthy of being called a painting. Would you, too, say that great impressionists and abstractionists such as Van Gogh, Monet, Renoir, and Degas are not worthy painters?

Get with the times. Photoshop is a new tool in the modern photographer's toolbox, and you can bet that if it were around in earlier times, it would be just as widely used, and you'd all be singing a different song right now.

The development of a medium should not be limited in any way.
I'm definitely with you seenew ...... :)

There should be no limit in photography, afterall all's fair in love, war and .... (cough) photography .. :cool:
 

whooleytoo

macrumors 604
Aug 2, 2002
6,607
716
Cork, Ireland.
Just to add my (absolute non-photographer's) 2c:

To me, two people could produce an identical image of a sunset.

One could have waited for half an hour to get the right position of the sun and angle of sunlight, and tint of sky. They could have used their years of experience to compose the shot, perhaps with people, or trees, or buildings in the foreground. They could have carefully chosen the moment so the shadows of the objects in the foreground aren't underexposed nor the sunset itself overexposed.

Another could have taken 100 shots at different times from different angles, gone home to their lab, used their experience of editing to choose the best group of shots, used HDR to avoid under/over exposure, trimmed to tweak the composition, adjusted the brightness/contrast/colour levels etc.

They're both valuable skills, and no one is knocking either. But personally, I don't consider the latter to be photography. It's a formidable skill, and can produce stunning images, but to me it's something different.

To me photography is about capturing a moment, and the skill involved in doing so faithfully (at times) or with a certain twist (such as an unusual camera angle etc.). Once the moment has passed, you either have the shot or you don't. To me, post editing is like an author trying to add an extra chapter on to a novel long after it's gone to print and on the bookshelves.

It's not snobbishness, it's just different strokes for different folks.;)
 

saltyzoo

macrumors 65816
Oct 4, 2007
1,065
0
I already posted it, but by definition if you aren't capturing an image on a light sensitive medium, it isn't photography. All bit twiddling after your sensor grabbed the image is artistry not photography.

But really, who cares? Both capturing and processing produce results that are pleasing. Paintings are nice too. :p Blending the two is even better.
 

Doylem

macrumors 68040
Dec 30, 2006
3,858
3,642
Wherever I hang my hat...
I already posted it, but by definition if you aren't capturing an image on a light sensitive medium, it isn't photography. All bit twiddling after your sensor grabbed the image is artistry not photography.

Hang on a minute... if you're shooting RAW, then a certain amount of 'twiddling' is necessary just to bring the image back to what you saw when you pressed the shutter. This isn't 'special effects'... just an integral part of the RAW process...
 

saltyzoo

macrumors 65816
Oct 4, 2007
1,065
0
Hang on a minute... if you're shooting RAW, then a certain amount of 'twiddling' is necessary just to bring the image back to what you saw when you pressed the shutter. This isn't 'special effects'... just an integral part of the RAW process...

Technically, no, it isn't photography unless you are using a light sensitive medium. You know, the "photo" part of the word and all.

pho·tog·ra·phy (fə-tŏg'rə-fē)
n. The art or process of producing images of objects on photosensitive surfaces.

But, I really do hate being technical, and I'm certainly not one to quibble about it. I enjoy all aspects and images created with skill in both capture and post processing.
 

pdxflint

macrumors 68020
Aug 25, 2006
2,407
14
Oregon coast
The news media still hang onto the notion of photography as an objective record of an event as it happened. A photographer called Adnan Hajj was sacked by Reuters a couple of years ago for making a pic of war-torn Beirut more dramatic by repeating the plumes of smoke (without much skill!) in Photoshop.

All photography is in effect an abstraction of reality, even straight photography. The issue with news media is one of ethics and trust, so the rules of what are acceptable are more about honesty. There is a responsibility to not "lie" or mislead (same thing IMO) in journalism, although point of view or message certainly can be affected by what is left out of an image, too. It gets tricky there, but news photographers have been fired, rightly so in my opinion, for staging shots for greater impact or drama, when if they had worked a bit harder they could have expressed the same message by capturing events as they happened. All the modern tools' ease of image manipulation have made it even more incumbent upon photojournalists to not cheat, since the public more than likely now is suspicious of news photography. Art photography is a completely different matter - anything goes.

Interesting thread... some good points made here.
 

Kamera RAWr

macrumors 65816
Original poster
May 15, 2007
1,022
0
Sitting on a rig somewhere
I'm really happy with all the posts that have made up this thread that I created. Sorry I haven't been participating at all, but I've loved reading all the responses. So many good points made.

I've come to one clear conclusion myself... As long as you enjoy and love what you're doing, who cares about labels. Or for the professional photographer, as long as you enjoy it and are still getting paid ;)
 
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