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deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,468
6,570
US
Apple has very high profit margin on charges, but not nearly as high. Manufacturing and logistics expenses are probably closer to $7-10 per unit.


Nice teardown.

I notice though that the author's cost estimate in footnote #14 totals $4.66 -- and that's with buying components in qty 1000 on the open market.

Presumably with Apple's buying power - both in terms of quantity and bundling other manufacturing orders - they could reduce that price somewhat. So maybe not down to $1 each, but still functionally a pittance.
 

Luposian

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2005
389
258
The internal SSD is the only place the machine will use to get its firmware from. If that drive dies you're SOL regardless of having a macos bootable external disk.
Same story for the T2 + intel macs: the internal drive must be working as it holds the firmware and the mac will not load its firmware from anywhere else. In fact there's a set of apple documents on how to restore the firmware on the internal storage using another mac.
I had not taken that into account. Thank you for the info.
 
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Luposian

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2005
389
258
I think you're still thinking of "booting from external drive", whereas I mentioned "booting from another partition". Kind of fundamentally different.

What you want is likely just not implemented yet. It makes sense because there is not much you can do with it right now... aside from booting 11.0.1 or 11.1.
The problem is, why is it only partially installing the OS? It puts all the folders there and fills System with 6 items. But it leaves the rest empty. If what I want is not implemented yet, why does it goes through the whole duration... just to fail? It's like someone saying it will take the entire day to fix your car... then SPEND the entire day on your car... but when you go to pick it up, they've only changed one tire. What the (!!!) were they doing the rest of that time?
 
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Quackers

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Sep 18, 2013
1,938
708
Manchester, UK
The problem is, why is it only partially installing the OS? It puts all the folders there and fills System with 6 items. But it leaves the rest empty. If what I want is not implemented yet, why does it goes through the whole duration... just to fail? It's like someone saying it will take the entire day to fix your car... then SPEND the entire day on your car... but when you go to pick it up, they've only changed one tire. What the (!!!) were they doing the rest of that time?
I wonder if the installer USB is complete? Sounds a long shot though.
 

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
The problem is, why is it only partially installing the OS? It puts all the folders there and fills System with 6 items. But it leaves the rest empty. If what I want is not implemented yet, why does it goes through the whole duration... just to fail? It's like someone saying it will take the entire day to fix your car... then SPEND the entire day on your car... but when you go to pick it up, they've only changed one tire. What the (!!!) were they doing the rest of that time?

This is just a guess, but it's likely because the system partition is missing on your external drive. Even though the installation process goes through as usual, it assumes a local system partition in the end. So your external drive only holds "data" per se, but none of the essential system stuffs to be able to properly boot.

And if that's the case, that sounds to me like an oversight on Apple's part. And it's also an indication that they may support something like this in the future.
 
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Quackers

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Sep 18, 2013
1,938
708
Manchester, UK
This is just a guess, but it's likely because the system partition is missing on your external drive. Even though the installation process goes through as usual, it assumes a local system partition in the end. So your external drive only holds "data" per se, but none of the essential system stuffs to be able to properly boot.

And if that's the case, that sounds to me like an oversight on Apple's part. And it's also an indication that they may support something like this in the future.
That's a good point :)
Interesting.
 

Luposian

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2005
389
258
This is just a guess, but it's likely because the system partition is missing on your external drive. Even though the installation process goes through as usual, it assumes a local system partition in the end. So your external drive only holds "data" per se, but none of the essential system stuffs to be able to properly boot.

And if that's the case, that sounds to me like an oversight on Apple's part. And it's also an indication that they may support something like this in the future.
I did notice, that, looking at the drives in Disk Utility, there is a small System partition (about 1Gb in size; bottom "drive") and then the internal SSD (however, the smaller System exists on the internal SSD, as I suspect that is the Recovery partition). Both have a System partition, whereas the external drive does not. But it creates all the folders and it puts 6 items in the System folder... but it leaves the others empty. What is being done (and/or how) differently with a Thunderbolt 3 drive, vs. a USB-C drive. If the USB-C (assuming it's different from USB-A) interface protocol is incomplete, I should think it couldn't do ANYTHING with that drive. Has anyone tried creating a bootable drive with a USB 3.0 (64-128GB) USB thumb drive? I returned mine... two thumb drives (USB installer and the empty one) won't fit, side-by side. Didn't want to invest in a 3.0 hub just for that...
 
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Luposian

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2005
389
258
This is just a guess, but it's likely because the system partition is missing on your external drive. Even though the installation process goes through as usual, it assumes a local system partition in the end. So your external drive only holds "data" per se, but none of the essential system stuffs to be able to properly boot.
Wouldn't such a system partition be created via Disk Utility? Unless it's created as part of the installation process, it would HAVE to be created via Disk Utility. But the system doesn't use the Disk Utility by itself. So, either the installer assumes it's only installing to the internal, which has a system partition (from the factory), or that function has been left out (intentionally or not). But that's an awefully big bug to be "oops!"ing on, if accidental.
 

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
There's this now, too...

I'm not sure if "Full Security" will enforce the user to boot only from an internal drive, but that sounds like what it will do (how do you even "trust" the OS on an external drive?).

And if there's a "No Security" option, it means Apple may have to support booting an "untrusted" OS at some point. That sounds like a gateway to boot Linux or Windows on ARM or something else. Potentially off of an external drive. But... we don't know yet. As far as I know, the firmware for these M1 Macs is different from the Intel counterpart, and they may have a different bootloader process, so it may not be as simple as just loading system files on an external drive.
 

Luposian

macrumors 6502
Apr 10, 2005
389
258
There's this now, too...

I'm not sure if "Full Security" will enforce the user to boot only from an internal drive, but that sounds like what it will do (how do you even "trust" the OS on an external drive?).

And if there's a "No Security" option, it means Apple may have to support booting an "untrusted" OS at some point. That sounds like a gateway to boot Linux or Windows on ARM or something else. Potentially off of an external drive. But... we don't know yet. As far as I know, the firmware for these M1 Macs is different from the Intel counterpart, and they may have a different bootloader process, so it may not be as simple as just loading system files on an external drive.
The OS only has to verify that it's installing/booting a copy of macOS from Apple. That should be very easy. 3rd party macOS Big Sur installers don't exist. There are only two security options in M1 Mac Recovery mode right now. "Full" and "Reduced". "Reduced" is not "None", as there is on Intel Macs. Any reference to Intel Macs should be removed or disconsidered in threads within the "Apple Silicon (ARM) Macs" group.

I'm thinking it's a weird (but annoying) oversight on Apple's part. I'm pretty sure they'll get it worked out, with enough complaining from enough users. Until then, if there is enough consensus from enough Thunderbolt 3 SSD users, that installing Big Sur 11.1 to an external TB3 SSD always and absolutely works/boots 100% of the time, then I just need to hunker down and buy one... even if it's a slower model.
 
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CMMChris

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2019
850
794
Germany (Bavaria)
In reduced security the M1 firmware allows chainloading another bootloader. So native booting of third party operating systems certainly isn't the problem here. Apple Silicon is not really locked down that much. The major issue is the undocumented hardware which will make it really hard to develop drivers for Apple Silicon.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,677
I notice though that the author's cost estimate in footnote #14 totals $4.66 -- and that's with buying components in qty 1000 on the open market.

Presumably with Apple's buying power - both in terms of quantity and bundling other manufacturing orders - they could reduce that price somewhat. So maybe not down to $1 each, but still functionally a pittance.

No argument here, but that is just the material bill — and that article was from 2012. I agree with you that Apple can get the components for cheaper, but there is also the case itself, assembly, logistics and other overheads. Thats why I am guessing that the total costs for Apple are a bit higher.
 

norbinhouston

macrumors 6502
Oct 14, 2011
480
776
Houston
No argument here, but that is just the material bill — and that article was from 2012. I agree with you that Apple can get the components for cheaper, but there is also the case itself, assembly, logistics and other overheads. Thats why I am guessing that the total costs for Apple are a bit higher.
Right because everyone should just pay material cost. That means all employees at a company will be working for free. You wanna buy a book? Only pay for the cost of the paper. Wanna buy a Bluray? Only pay the price of the plastic. Eat at a restaurant? Only pay for the price of the raw food. lol.
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,468
6,570
US
Right because everyone should just pay material cost. That means all employees at a company will be working for free. You wanna buy a book? Only pay for the cost of the paper. Wanna buy a Bluray? Only pay the price of the plastic. Eat at a restaurant? Only pay for the price of the raw food. lol.
Yet the functional if less complex/safe versions sell for 45 cents each in 1000 unit volumes - and that is sufficient to pay the employees, overhead, tooling, some % for alibaba, and profit for the owners.

What makes you think the non-material variable costs for the more complex Apple version are substantially more than say double that?
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,142
1,899
Anchorage, AK
Yet the functional if less complex/safe versions sell for 45 cents each in 1000 unit volumes - and that is sufficient to pay the employees, overhead, tooling, some % for alibaba, and profit for the owners.

What makes you think the non-material variable costs for the more complex Apple version are substantially more than say double that?

Apple has more stringent labor controls and requirements in place than Alibaba for starters.
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,468
6,570
US
Apple has more stringent labor controls and requirements in place than Alibaba for starters.
Sure - so how much more do you think? I suggested 2x (doubled) just as a WAG. We're talking basic assembly line work here where labor's generally just not a big part of the cost structure. But just for grins, let's say labor *is* 2/3 of the cost -- even tripling the labor costs, they're still less than $1/unit.

I'm genuinely curious what you truly think the cost to Apple is to manufacture the 5W bricks and what citable data sources you're using to come to that conclusion.
 
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