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balamw

Moderator emeritus
Aug 16, 2005
19,365
979
New England
Quick tip for finding MAC addresses of your devices.

Most wireless routers have a DHCP table that shows you a table of MAC addresses vs. the IP addresses it hands out by DHCP. This provides a nice centralized source for all your MAC addresses.

Add all the MAC addresses to the table and then try to figure out who the unwanted guest is by a process of elimination.

Another way to proceed is to clear the DHCP table and let the unwanted guest renew his lease while leaving most of your machines off. This will clearly ID his (or her) box.

B
 

Danksi

macrumors 68000
Oct 3, 2005
1,554
0
Nelson, BC. Canada
My Linksys router provides a Mac address table and the machine names - you can select which machine(s) to permit/deny on an 'deny these machines' or 'permit these machines' basis.
 

Lacero

macrumors 604
Jan 20, 2005
6,637
3
grapes911 said:
It wasn't said because there are 100s of programs for every OS that take 2 seconds to find all available networks regardless if the SSID is being broadcast or not.

I'm a pretty savvy internet user, and even I don't know how to find hidden SSID broadcasts. Most non-geeks haven't a clue, and even some geeks don't either. Someone would have to actively seek out information on how to find hidden SSID broadcasts. Even then, someone trying to protect their wi-fi would be powerless against a skilled hacker.


Here's to the Crazy Ones
 

Danksi

macrumors 68000
Oct 3, 2005
1,554
0
Nelson, BC. Canada
Lacero said:
I'm a pretty savvy internet user, and even I don't know how to find hidden SSID broadcasts. Most non-geeks haven't a clue, and even some geeks don't either. Someone would have to actively seek out information on how to find hidden SSID broadcasts. Even then, someone trying to protect their wi-fi would be powerless against a skilled hacker.

Exactly - still worth using I say, to avoid being an easy target. There are three other visible networks near my place, so I'm sure they'll get trouble before I do.
 

sethypoo

macrumors 68000
Oct 8, 2003
1,583
5
Sacramento, CA, USA
Thank you for this thread!

Thanks to this thread, I have accessed my Airport Express, and changed my security from a weak WEP 128-bit to WPA2. I feel a lot better, I had no idea WEP was so weak.
 

Compile 'em all

macrumors 601
Apr 6, 2005
4,131
359
balamw said:
Quick tip for finding MAC addresses of your devices.

Most wireless routers have a DHCP table that shows you a table of MAC addresses vs. the IP addresses it hands out by DHCP. This provides a nice centralized source for all your MAC addresses.

Add all the MAC addresses to the table and then try to figure out who the unwanted guest is by a process of elimination.

Another way to proceed is to clear the DHCP table and let the unwanted guest renew his lease while leaving most of your machines off. This will clearly ID his (or her) box.

B

I think this is just complicating things more that what it seems. Plain and
simple :eek: , here is some pesudo code:

int n = number_of own_computers;
For i=0 to n-1 do{
-Go to computer i.
-Write down MAC address of computer i on paper.
}
- go to router.
- Add the addresses from paper to the permit list and deny anything else.
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
16,120
2,399
Lard
Danksi said:
My Linksys router provides a Mac address table and the machine names - you can select which machine(s) to permit/deny on an 'deny these machines' or 'permit these machines' basis.

Are you sure that isn't a MAC address table? :p

Glad to see that people are actually learning to protect themselves. I've got a machine acting as a software basestation so this is interesting to me, but I'm not sure if someone would actually try since someone's already been arrested here in the state for using someone else's network.
 

AlBDamned

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Mar 14, 2005
2,641
15
sethypoo said:
Thank you for this thread!

Thanks to this thread, I have accessed my Airport Express, and changed my security from a weak WEP 128-bit to WPA2. I feel a lot better, I had no idea WEP was so weak.


Half your luck. Now my router shows up as unsecured, even with WEP enabled and on the Windows machine, it keeps flipping back to the neighbour's network...
 

Danksi

macrumors 68000
Oct 3, 2005
1,554
0
Nelson, BC. Canada
bousozoku said:
Are you sure that isn't a MAC address table? :p

Glad to see that people are actually learning to protect themselves. I've got a machine acting as a software basestation so this is interesting to me, but I'm not sure if someone would actually try since someone's already been arrested here in the state for using someone else's network.

Sorry yes and coming from an Engineer as well :eek:

Reminds me of a recent comedy moment though. I was on the phone, helping a friend of the family connect his PowerMac up to a friend's ISP connection. I told him he needed to delete an old MAC registration that wasn't in use anymore, as his ISP restricts to only 2, which were already used up.

So off he went to find his MAC address - took me a while to realise he thought it was a number printed on the back of his Mac - he's looking all over his nice shiny silver box for this 'Mac address'! :D
 

grapes911

Moderator emeritus
Jul 28, 2003
6,995
10
Citizens Bank Park
Lacero said:
I'm a pretty savvy internet user, and even I don't know how to find hidden SSID broadcasts. Most non-geeks haven't a clue, and even some geeks don't either. Someone would have to actively seek out information on how to find hidden SSID broadcasts. Even then, someone trying to protect their wi-fi would be powerless against a skilled hacker.


Here's to the Crazy Ones
MacStumbler is an very popular software titile for OS X.
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14746
 

Compile 'em all

macrumors 601
Apr 6, 2005
4,131
359
I have a Linksys WRT54G router running OpenWRT GNU/Linux.
Although I have an internet connection of my own and I don't need to use any
others people's internet, I wanted to show you how easy it is to search/join
WiFi points.
 

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jdechko

macrumors 601
Jul 1, 2004
4,230
325
Compile 'em all said:
I think this is just complicating things more that what it seems. Plain and
simple :eek: , here is some pesudo code:

int n = number_of own_computers;
For i=0 to n-1 do{
-Go to computer i.
-Write down MAC address of computer i on paper.
}
- go to router.
- Add the addresses from paper to the permit list and deny anything else.

Thanks, that really cleared it up. :D

On the topic of leeching bandwidth, my wife's parents are in an apartment complex and someone there needs to learn about wireless network security. I turned on my laptop, not even thinking that I'd find an open network, but I did. I admit, I did use a little bandwidth to check my email and another site for some game walkthroughs, but I wouldn't let her family play with it, mainly because it doesn't seem too ethical to me (I felt a little guilty for doing it myself).

Some people aren't smart enough to own the equipment to operate a wireless network. They are only interested in the novelty of it. It's like buying a nice house and putting all of your stuff in it, but leaving the front door open all the time. Of course there are going to be people who come in and steal your stuff. Duh!
 

Danksi

macrumors 68000
Oct 3, 2005
1,554
0
Nelson, BC. Canada
jdechko said:
Some people aren't smart enough to own the equipment to operate a wireless network. They are only interested in the novelty of it. It's like buying a nice house and putting all of your stuff in it, but leaving the front door open all the time. Of course there are going to be people who come in and steal your stuff. Duh!

.. that's what the rottweiler's for!

Of course some routers may be deliberately open, so people join and then you can snoop their traffic?

There's a balancing act between making something easy to use and thereby successful in the consumer world. Introducing concepts of passwords, encryption types, SSID's and especially suggesting that the boogie man's out there to get you, will not instill confidence in people wanting to avoid running lengths of cable around their house. :)
 

AlBDamned

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Mar 14, 2005
2,641
15
jdechko said:
Thanks, that really cleared it up. :D

On the topic of leeching bandwidth, my wife's parents are in an apartment complex and someone there needs to learn about wireless network security. I turned on my laptop, not even thinking that I'd find an open network, but I did. I admit, I did use a little bandwidth to check my email and another site for some game walkthroughs, but I wouldn't let her family play with it, mainly because it doesn't seem too ethical to me (I felt a little guilty for doing it myself).

Depends what you're doing with it though, surely. If you're like our culprit, sucking up someone else's bandwith by downloading god knows what then sure, that's unethical, especially seeing as this person was cracking our security. That's just not cricket.

But, the occasional person using someone's open network to check their email once in a while, or look up something quickly... I don't see a problem with that at all. If people were doing that with my connection then fine, I wouldn't mind.
 

balamw

Moderator emeritus
Aug 16, 2005
19,365
979
New England
Compile 'em all said:
-Write down MAC address of computer i on paper.
Your pseudo code is exactly right, presuming you already know how find the wireless MAC address of each device. I do, you do, the vast majority of users including the OP don't.

Windows in particular (prior to XP) doesn't make it easy to differentiate between wired and wireless NICs, nor does it make the MAC/Network/Transport/Physical address particularly easy to find (even in XP).

There's also the minor issue of non-computer devices such as the Airport Express that may not be as easy to determine their MAC address "locally".

B
 

pna

macrumors 6502
May 27, 2005
318
0
jdechko said:
Some people aren't smart enough to own the equipment to operate a wireless network. They are only interested in the novelty of it. It's like buying a nice house and putting all of your stuff in it, but leaving the front door open all the time. Of course there are going to be people who come in and steal your stuff. Duh!

Careful here... just because someone doesn't know about wireless security doesn't mean they're dumb, or even not smart enough to own the equipment. Like a ton of tools and other tech people use every single day, there's a place for wanting to get the desired utility out of something without necessarily understanding how it works. I have the relevant tech background to read up and secure my wireless network, but my mom sure doesn't. Can she use a computer, and use it pretty effectively? Sure. Could she set up a DSL modem or wireless router herself if you gave her instructions? Sure, but she's not likely to understand what she's done from a security perspective. Could she still get utility from using her computer wirelessly? Absolutely.

Your analogy to someone buying an expensive house and then leaving the doors open is also pretty ridiculous, given that a huge majority of the people that are mindlessly installing open wireless networks actually don't place much value on their bandwidth (i.e., they wouldn't care if you used it if it didn't impact them), or don't really have much on their computer that would be worth stealing if you hacked into it. Any credit card transactions they use should be SSL encrypted anyhow, so they shouldn't have to worry about you sniffing their bank info.

The problem is that, to maximize compatibility, DSL providers and lots of wireless routers are still coming with insecure WEP setups by default. My girlfriend just got DSL from Qwest. Setup was easy, but not only was it WEP by default (thankfully they at least wanted you to use a password so it wasn't _completely_ open out of the box), but if you wanted to use WPA, tech support wouldn't help you. There was nothing in the box that really said anything about security (because they want it to be easy), so even someone that could understand basic explanations and would want to choose WPA wouldn't even have a pointer to a place they could find out more and really clamp down their network. Given how ubiquitous both broadband and wireless have become, I really think this is asinine.

Sorry to rant, it just drives me crazy when people act as if people that don't have the same level of tech expertise as they do *should*, and are idiots or fools if they don't. I mean, look at the number of people posting on this topic, that certainly above average in being tech savvy if they're hanging out in a mac forum, who are suggesting things like SSID hiding or MAC filtering??? Sure, they're added layers of security, but they're just as easily worked around as hacking the WEP network in the first place.

It seems to me that you can divide those that want to use your wireless network into two categories: The first is people that only know enough to jump onto an open network. That's the largest group. The second group is people that know enough to hack the WEP encryption, and they're clearly savvy enough to get around SSID hiding and MAC filtering. So just by having a password you eliminate the first group. By adding the other two measures, though, you've really done nothing about the second, so why bother?

So what needs to happen is for the secure thing (WPA or WPA2) to be the default, and require that you use a password. That way, the idiots that don't know any better are still protected, because no matter what you do, they're not going to understand all of the buzzwords of the tech. Just help them to make things work, and work securely. The tech is there, why on earth aren't people deploying it making it more obvious which the correct choice should be?
 

AlBDamned

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Mar 14, 2005
2,641
15
pna said:
So what needs to happen is for the secure thing (WPA or WPA2) to be the default, and require that you use a password. That way, the idiots that don't know any better are still protected, because no matter what you do, they're not going to understand all of the buzzwords of the tech. Just help them to make things work, and work securely. The tech is there, why on earth aren't people deploying it making it more obvious which the correct choice should be?

I agree actually. A secure system like WPA should be default with routers. How hard would it be?
 

grapes911

Moderator emeritus
Jul 28, 2003
6,995
10
Citizens Bank Park
AlBDamned said:
I agree actually. A secure system like WPA should be default with routers. How hard would it be?
Many wireless cards in use do not support WPA. People that don't know too much about security would have trouble turing it off. Companies don't want their tech support being overrun with "I cann't connect."
 

AlBDamned

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Mar 14, 2005
2,641
15
grapes911 said:
Many wireless cards in use do not support WPA. People that don't know too much about security would have trouble turing it off. Companies don't want their tech support being overrun with "I cann't connect."

Fair enough, but a compatibility table might/could help with that. There are ways to help move in that direction but sure I can see problems with making it the default setting.

I mean, I'm not really tech savvy, but I know a little more than average, and this WPA thing has walked all over me.
 

Danksi

macrumors 68000
Oct 3, 2005
1,554
0
Nelson, BC. Canada
grapes911 said:
Many wireless cards in use do not support WPA. People that don't know too much about security would have trouble turing it off. Companies don't want their tech support being overrun with "I cann't connect."

I had update the firmware of my Centrino laptop earlier this year and the only reason I did that was because we were staying with friends at the time and their network was WPA enabled.

Ours was still WEP, however since learning it's not as secure as WPA, I updated everything when we returned home.
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
16,120
2,399
Lard
Danksi said:
Sorry yes and coming from an Engineer as well :eek:

Have you driven many trains? :p

Danksi said:
Reminds me of a recent comedy moment though. I was on the phone, helping a friend of the family connect his PowerMac up to a friend's ISP connection. I told him he needed to delete an old MAC registration that wasn't in use anymore, as his ISP restricts to only 2, which were already used up.

So off he went to find his MAC address - took me a while to realise he thought it was a number printed on the back of his Mac - he's looking all over his nice shiny silver box for this 'Mac address'! :D

Having done a variety of support functions as a part of various development jobs, I'm always amused at what users can do. I had recently changed jobs and I was attempting to resolve a problem without walking to the other side of the building since I was knee-deep in many other issues. I told the woman to press the F7 key. "It didn't do anything." "Fine, I'll be there in a few minutes." "Thanks." So, I walked over and found that pressing the F7 key had been translated by her to mean typing F7 and waiting for something to happen.

grapes911 said:
MacStumbler is an very popular software titile for OS X.
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14746

Thanks! That helped me find that the software basestation is inadequately secure because it's highest level of security seems to be WEP but better something than nothing, right?
 

grapes911

Moderator emeritus
Jul 28, 2003
6,995
10
Citizens Bank Park
AlBDamned said:
Fair enough, but a compatibility table might/could help with that. There are ways to help move in that direction but sure I can see problems with making it the default setting.

I mean, I'm not really tech savvy, but I know a little more than average, and this WPA thing has walked all over me.
My parents can't understand the differnce between 802.11b and g. It escapes them that G gs better but only if the whole network is g. It also escapes them that they are compaitble. Can you imagine if they had to worry about WPA or WEP compatibility as well?
 

AlBDamned

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Mar 14, 2005
2,641
15
grapes911 said:
My parents can't understand the differnce between 802.11b and g. It escapes them that G gs better but only if the whole network is g. It also escapes them that they are compaitble. Can you imagine if they had to worry about WPA or WEP compatibility as well?

But if something was automatically (and simply) pre-configured and it had something like 'this will work with Apple airport extreme cards and nothing else' written on the box, then it might work.

Imagine a modem/router that auto-configured itself and then all you had to do was choose a 16 digit alpha-numerical password and you were safe.

Bliss.
 
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