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whitby

Contributor
Dec 13, 2007
379
392
Austin, TX
That's because our ears are much more directionally sensitive than we think. We have the ability to zero in on exactly where some sound is coming from at a distance. Extrapolate that ability out to an idea that maybe a couple of speakers creating a faux center is about as good as a true center. Nope... sound is still coming from both speakers, not from dead center. Our ears can tell the difference.

Same with surround sound vs. faux surround. Faux can fake it a little but all sound is still coming from speakers up front. Our ears can tell.

Same with ATMOS overhead speakers. Faux ATMOS including upfiring is not the same as sound actually coming from above. Our ears can tell where the sound originates.

Yes, there is some room to fool our ears to a degree. But, in general, 2 ears are about as good at directional sound sensitivity as our 2 eyes are at depth perception.

When we experience the real thing, any of our ears can hear the quality upgrade vs. any "good enough" choice we've made for any of the reasons we make in support of it. If that's actually good enough, that's just fine. To me though, home audio is something that is typically experienced near daily (for some, MANY hours each day) and also typically for many years: might as well make the most of it.

Yes, it is harder to set up ONCE but once it is set up, you are done with the hard part. Then, you just enjoy it for years and years. I've lived at the same place for more than 20 years. I've enjoyed the traditional setup for all that time... after running them wires ONCE way back then. Unlike Apple tech, that's the nature of speakers: they can sound as good 2 or 3 decades after we buy them with only a little care. But we'll spend fortunes on Apple tech over and over again but then go at home theater tech like lowest/lower prices win... or just find some "good enough" level for some other reason when many of us could have something towards "the best" (for decades) if we wanted it.
Acoustic imaging is a very interesting topic as the way we determine locations in multiple dimensions is based on observation (it affects how our brain processes what we hear, though we can shut it off and still locate sounds perfectly well but can be more easily fooled), frequency, amplitude and phase (the relative phasing of the frequency components in a signal). I did a lot of work in this area and it is amazing how we can fool our hearing. Positional information is also related to the shape of our ears and how our brain learns how to position sounds (experiments that pinned peoples ears back caused them to lack the ability to locate sound, which they then learned and then had to relearn when their ears were allowed back into their normal shape).

All in all it is a very complex subject and is related to data and the way our brain processes data. A lot of the current processed audio system use phase as well frequency and directional control to create the effect of moving the location of a sound. Dolby ATMOS does exactly this by allowing you to map audio objects anywhere in 3 dimensional space by using the amplitude, frequency and phase of the signal you are trying to locate in 3 dimensional space. As you point out stereo was one of the first systems that attempted to locate sounds in a 2 dimensional space. Surround sound does this in a plane in which you are placed and ATMOS tries to create a 3 dimensional space in which a sound is located.

Soundbars use some of this to create the illusion that you have widely separated sources from a small system where the actual transducers are only locate 36" to 48" apart. It has a lot of work to do and in general they depend a lot on location and adjacent reflective surfaces i.e. environment. Loudspeakers interact with their surroundings and this is what causes the problems with them functioning when trying to fool your ears into locating sound sources in space. Headphones have complete control of the environment and can more easily fool your brain into convincing you that a sounds is located in a particular point in space. I remember early tests with open backed headphones where the test was a person walking around you and whispering in your ear. It made you jump and you had no problem locating them in a 2 dimensional flat plane. Adding a third dimension is very hard with headphones however.

Anyway, after all this pontificating, I was just trying to point out that soundbars if correctly placed in an ideal environment can possibly fool you into thinking you are sitting in the middle of a sound stage, but environmental issues, restricted speaker capabilities and some of the artifacts of the necessary processing make them a compromise which is more easily overcome with discrete speakers , amplifiers and careful processing but at some cost and convenience loss.
 
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mtbdudex

macrumors 68030
Aug 28, 2007
2,879
5,200
SE Michigan
HRTF is definitely above what most people care to know, hence I typically stay away from bringing its nuances up.



Something easier to grasp may be the classic book “master handbook of acoustics”, and then “sound reproduction” .
36fb7bca9445df85ced3f3202fb58339.jpg
 

whitby

Contributor
Dec 13, 2007
379
392
Austin, TX
HRTF is definitely above what most people care to know, hence I typically stay away from bringing its nuances up.



Something easier to grasp may be the classic book “master handbook of acoustics”, and then “sound reproduction” .
36fb7bca9445df85ced3f3202fb58339.jpg
Agree and am very familiar with these references. Trying to distill the issues into something that is easily digestible as, as you say, most people do not care to get that into the theory etc. was my initial objective.

They look well thumbed and noted your home theatre citation, so I assume you are well familiar with the issues I alluded to. Having designed loudspeakers for many years (a few years ago now as I moved onto a more computing systems orientated career and am now retired), the science and art of designing systems to achieve certain objectives is something I loved and relished and have followed the latest developments with interest, albeit and sometimes with a rather cynical eye and skepticism at times. Toole's book is especially interesting (I have the edition published in 2008, I do not know whether he updated it later). And of course, Everest's book is a standard reference for anyone working in the field.

Appreciate your comments and feedback. Nice to meet someone who has as much interest in this as I do.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
Mama Bear won't let me run wires ...

Papa Bear can have wants fulfilled too.

And there are LOTS of ways to hide wires if you can't get into walls, ceilings, basements. See JeffPerrin's many good suggestions. While least favorite, I'll add one more to his if applicable: take them outside and then underground if you want to mostly hide them out there too, around to a suitable entry point and back in again. For example, if your main room is in a corner room and "front" is a wall that touches the outside, you could go through that wall, optionally underground (suggesting inside of some simple PVC piping you bury in a little trench) then around to the side wall that would basically be either beside or behind main seating position, back in there and get your surrounds, (optionally rear) and optionally sub cables to the right location that way.

There's also the wireless option of casting subwoofer and surrounds as a wireless signal, usually to a Sub positioned a little behind the main seating position and then wires from the sub to the surrounds. This eliminates front-to-back wiring in situations where there's just no way. I'm no big fan of this option but it exists too.
 
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mtbdudex

macrumors 68030
Aug 28, 2007
2,879
5,200
SE Michigan
Yea I’ve built my own speakers for both dedicated HT in basement (9.2.6) and family room (5.1.4). Having similar off axis response to on axis does help immensely for many acoustic matters.

8a5ac7b063de862f2e2c8ac0f94cb562.jpg


These are the front wides (smaller ones) and the larger ones serve rear sides / surrounds and atmos front and rear height duty
7152476e04a7c8fe41a0a15d343866a7.jpg


This was upon completion the mains, before went AT screen. Those are 15” wide waveguides with 12” woofer. I was trying different locations
b2873d8109c4a4c40d64d7c6d4c25db2.jpg
 

Ledsteplin

macrumors 65816
Oct 23, 2013
1,284
850
Florence, AL
I had a nice surround sound system set up at my house. I could crank it up loud. It sounded great. But moved into a high rise apartment. And now just use wired headphones. It's mostly for TV.
 
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StandingGoose

macrumors member
Mar 24, 2017
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Easttime

macrumors 6502a
Jun 17, 2015
701
503
Thinking newer is better and wanting to get rid of the wires snaking all over our living room, a few years ago I replaced our old wired receiver/speakers system with a Sonos system. The sound quality is not as good. The old front speakers were spaced apart much wider than the sound bar and simply sounded spatially better. But there is something to be said for the convenience of wireless.
 

phrehdd

macrumors 601
Oct 25, 2008
4,472
1,426
Thinking newer is better and wanting to get rid of the wires snaking all over our living room, a few years ago I replaced our old wired receiver/speakers system with a Sonos system. The sound quality is not as good. The old front speakers were spaced apart much wider than the sound bar and simply sounded spatially better. But there is something to be said for the convenience of wireless.
I can appreciate what you are saying but then again, there is a mad rush between makers to come out with soundbars that are good enough for home play of movies and such. They are far far better than those of just a few years ago. I prefer passive as they are usually 3 channel and can be hooked up to a receiver and gain other benefits but - there are a handful of impressive soundbars out there that in a small to medium room, with a subwoofer, can sound better than just okay.
 
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