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mreg376

macrumors 65816
Mar 23, 2008
1,231
417
Brooklyn, NY
This thread has got me scratching my head now. I am looking at buying a new iMac to replace my old MBP and was going to get the 2TB FD version. It's and extra £1260 UK for a 2TB SSD. Are the FD's really that bad??

Look at it this way. They're a BIG improvement over standard hard drives, but not as good as a 100% SSD. That being said, your particular usage of a 2TB fusion drive may mimic a 100% SSD much of the time, if the size and number of the applications and files that you use the most do not exceed the 128GB size of the SSD portion of the FD. Yes, it will be slower accessing that seldom-seen 20-minute video file from your kid's birthday five years ago that's sitting on the spinning platter (it will still work just fine), but the FD might be just as zippy as an SSD for your everyday tasks.
 
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macduke

macrumors G5
Jun 27, 2007
13,421
20,412
I had a fusion drive in my late 2012 27" iMac at work from early 2013 through summer 2017. Never had a single problem. Would't say it was blazing fast but it was plenty fast for the multitasking in design, photography, web and app development work that I would do. Never had a problem with it either. Was 128GB SSD combined with a 1TB spinning drive. The newer ones are only 32GB on the 1TB so IDK how well they work. Not sure why so many people are trashing them on here but maybe I was one of the lucky ones. Used it 9 hours a day for four years no issue.
 
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ignatius345

macrumors 604
Aug 20, 2015
7,477
12,578
What capacity are the SSD drives that are contained in the 1 and 2TB fusion drives that are shipped with the iMacs?
The answer to this question, by the way, from the Apple site:

iMac 2018-05-10 at 5.35.54 PM.png
 

zoran

macrumors 601
Original poster
Jun 30, 2005
4,782
129
On an iMac that uses an FD, can one see two drives, or is there only one drive created by the merging of the three drives?
 

DeltaMac

macrumors G5
Jul 30, 2003
13,710
4,552
Delaware
On an iMac that uses an FD, can one see two drives, or is there only one drive created by the merging of the three drives?
That would be the merging of the two drives (not three)
The SSD and the hard drive are logically merged into a single block device managed by the operating system. That resulting logical drive is accessed as a single volume. You see one volume. There's no way to decide if the SSD or the spinning drive gets files. The operating system decides that for you.
 

nambuccaheadsau

macrumors 68020
Oct 19, 2007
2,024
510
Blue Mountains NSW Australia
I do not hate anything let alone hard drives. zoran you are the one lashing out the money. Consider your disappointment with a slow hard drive for the next five years or so. I used a Fusion Drive in a late 2013 iMac and had no problems but then again I am not into music, movies or photos so could fit the entire operating system on the SSD portion.
 

zoran

macrumors 601
Original poster
Jun 30, 2005
4,782
129
I am not into music, movies or photos so could fit the entire operating system on the SSD portion.
What you are saying is coming to contradiction with the way that the FD works. With a FD you do not fit anything anywhere, the operating system moves files between the 2 drives for the best handling... isnt that correct ignatius345, mreg376, DeltaMac, mboss? :)
 
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mbosse

macrumors 6502a
Apr 29, 2015
628
199
Vienna, Austria
What you are saying is coming to contradiction with the way that the FD works. With a FD you do not fit anything anywhere, the operating system moves files between the 2 drives for the best handling... isnt that correct ignatius345, mreg376, DeltaMac, mboss? :)

Yes, that’s it. The FD distributes files ach that you get the best user experience based on you own usage pattern )given the limitations of the SSD size, of course). I had a FD on my Mac Pro for three years without any issue and was quite satisfied.
 

294307

Cancelled
Mar 19, 2009
567
315
I have a 2017, 27-inch iMac with a 1 TB Fusion Drive and I can tell you it is NOT as slow as people suggest it is. I am using 270 GB of storage and with only a 32 GB SSD, the most frequent apps I use on a day to day basis still seem to open within the same time it takes for the same apps to launch on my work MacBook Pro. I have a predictable workflow, I'm not a photographer or video producer. The priority for me is fast start up, wake from sleep and quick app launches. I am certain Apple prioritises these three things given the size of the SSD. My experience would be a lot different by now if that wasn't the case.

If you work with large files every day as a creative professional, then the 1 TB Fusion Drive makes no sense because of the smaller SSD. However, if your workflow is predictable (if you usually use the same apps each day for your line of work), a 1 TB Fusion Drive is still noticeably faster than a 1 TB hard drive. I have had my iMac for nine months. I think I've used it long enough to make an informed opinion by now.
 

JustMartin

macrumors 6502a
Feb 28, 2012
787
271
UK
Yes, that’s it. The FD distributes files ach that you get the best user experience based on you own usage pattern )given the limitations of the SSD size, of course). I had a FD on my Mac Pro for three years without any issue and was quite satisfied.

A small, but important correction, the Fusion algorithm works at the lower, disk block level, not a file one. May not make much of a difference if you only deal in small files, but if you have large files and only ever deal with a small portion of them, it provides a level of caching that you could not get from manually moving files around.

Similarly, the MacOS is small, but there are still parts of it that are not used by everyone. Having terminal, grep, find, vi, sed etc. on the SSD is probably a waste of space for most people. The Fusion algorithm takes care of that, it would be a chore to manage manually
 
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gsmornot

macrumors 68040
Sep 29, 2014
3,644
3,792
What you are saying is coming to contradiction with the way that the FD works. With a FD you do not fit anything anywhere, the operating system moves files between the 2 drives for the best handling... isnt that correct ignatius345, mreg376, DeltaMac, mboss? :)
Its my understanding the SSD will fill first then files will be moved onto the HDD based on least used. It would place everything on the faster access for better performance until it needs to move items for space and performance. In my case I have a 120G SSD in addition to my 2TB HDD. I am only using about 80G at the moment so I assume all of my data is on the SSD at this point. There may be a way but not one I am aware of that tells you where the data is you just have to assume.

As I said in post 20 and I'm saying again here, I bought the Fusion knowing what it was. I have been happy with it and knew from experience I would be. I would like APFS to be made for it but that is another item.
 

zoran

macrumors 601
Original poster
Jun 30, 2005
4,782
129
Is it possible to see the file popularity of the SSD in a FDrive?
 

kschendel

macrumors 65816
Dec 9, 2014
1,292
565
Is it possible to see the file popularity of the SSD in a FDrive?

Given that the FD works at a block level, I'd say almost certainly not. You would have to reverse map the blocks to the files they belong to, and there's generally no reason to do that in normal operation; so the filesystem data structures aren't set up to do that easily. (That's why the Repair function in Disk Utility does so much work; it does exactly that sort of reverse mapping to verify that all files have valid used blocks and all used blocks belong to valid files.)
 

George Dawes

Suspended
Jul 17, 2014
2,980
4,332
=VH=
I'd just be wary of the HD part of the equation

My FD bit the dust - quite literally - due to it's hw limitations
 

vkd

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2012
981
377
Fusion can only slow an existing SSD down.
This is a 100% certainty.

Fishrrman, I can tell that you consider yourself (at least on MacRumors) the authority on drive technology. However, sorry to disappoint you but I don't completely agree with you. Apple states that in a Fusion Drive, the two drives joined together in software will perform with the speed of the SSD, so how you come to this conclusion that it will slow the SSD down I do not know. I am using a FD for 2 or more years now and it consistently performs at the maximum SSD speed for my setup.

However a FD with a 2.5" 5400rpm HDD is not necessarily faster than a pure 3.5" 7200rpm HDD.

I see there is some general misunderstanding here. Following on from the above, the rotation speed of the HDD will not theoretically affect the FD as from the user's point-of-view it is performing at the speed of the SSD, not the HDD.

One major disadvantage is the small size of the SSD in the 1 TB fusion drive, and if you have the 21.5-inch screen, the hard drive part is a 5400 rpm 2.5-inch drive.

Finally a perceived widespread misunderstanding is this "small size of the SSD in the 1TB Fusion Drive". From basic computer principles, when you start the machine up it initialises the hardware then starts the operating system, which provides the user control interface. With macOS, the kernel (essence) of the OS plus kernel extensions (kexts), etc., are loaded into RAM for fast access, a truth that is common for all apps that are subsequently loaded. Basically when operating a computer is working from the data available in the RAM, NOT the physical storage, be it HDD, SSD, FD, FDD, SD chip, USB stick, etc. All data used by the processor (CPU) is taken from RAM, not disc. So, if you have 8GB RAM then that is the working space available to your processor. At any given moment all the data in use by the machine will be in that space.

Getting back to the point, as above quoted by nambuccaheadsau in Post 2,

The current 1TB Fusion has 32GB of PCI-e Blade Drive, also called SSD.

So the speed of a PCI-e SSD is 1 GB/second. This is the speed of the 1TB Fusion Drive in the basic Apple iMacs, according to information provided by Apple. Yes, the drive is only 5400RPM but that fact can be discounted as that matter has been dealt with above. Yes, the SSD is only 32GB but this is 4 times the standard size of the RAM in the machine, so in the case of excessive computer use (lots of memory hungry apps open, etc.) and the need for paging occurs, where 'pages' of data from RAM are written to physical disc to free up RAM space for other data, this transference will be from DDR4 RAM to the FD at 1GB/s. The SSD is 4x the size of the RAM so even if the whole of RAM was paged to the FD, the FD still would have 24GB of free space to work with, for extracting fresh data from the HDD portion of the FD, copying data from FD to RAM, etc. In other words, ample. For the majority of users in the majority of use-cases paging will not occur, as 8GB RAM is sufficient for the majority of common tasks. In that case, new data needed by the computer in the case of opening a new app, saving a file, etc., will all happen at SSD speed, in this case 1GB per second. I hope this is clear enough because I would sincerely love to clear up this misconception that a 32GB-equipped FD is basically useless and should be avoided like the plague. Of course, everyone is entitled to hold their own opinion. I also have one. What I am presenting here though are practical facts that I believe many people do not either consider or understand in total, otherwise they would not come to the conclusions they do.
 
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sublunar

macrumors 68020
Jun 23, 2007
2,283
1,640
Most of the insights in this thread are close enough. The 1Tb Fusion drive in the iMac has a 24Gb SSD component whereas the 2Tb (and presumably 3Tb option) retain the original 128Gb part used in earlier models - including the still sold 2014 Mac Mini. This was from original 2015 spec changes. Here's a link for an earlier Mac confirming they started skimping on Fusion drives for the 2015 models. If you intend to increase the RAM on your iMac to 32Gb then Apple apparently advise that you choose a 2Tb Fusion drive to start with (presumably because Fusion Drives don't have enough high performance SSD to create memory paging files for swapping - and eating into the HDD portion of the Fusion Drive will result in unacceptable performance.

Apple's new APFS file system relies on 100% SSD and doesn't currently work on Fusion Drives. Apple may have tweaked the size of the SSD on more modern Fusion Drives but the moral of the story at the moment is to stick with 2Tb fusion where possible for the larger size SSD.

Similar methodology is being employed in Optane drive storage offered by Intel and presumably used in some windows machines. The SSD portion is incredibly fast, uses only 2 PCIe lanes, while the HDD offers the volume required.
 

294307

Cancelled
Mar 19, 2009
567
315
The 2017 iMac with a 1 TB Fusion Drive comes with a 32 GB SSD, not 24 GB. And there is nothing slow about the 1 TB Fusion Drive – for predictable workflows, it is noticeably faster than a standard 1 TB hard drive. Apple places the operating system and the most popular apps you use on the SSD, so your most commonly used apps launch quickly each time. I have a 1 TB Fusion Drive with a supposedly piss poor 32 GB SSD which for the past nine months remains as fast as day one and I happen to be using 280 GB storage. Unless you're working with large files all day as a photographer or video producer, there is nothing patently slow about the 1 TB Fusion Drive.

People need to stop spreading misinformation about what the Fusion Drive is and what it is not.
 

Hexley

Suspended
Jun 10, 2009
1,641
505
The current 1TB Fusion has 32GB of PCI-e Blade Drive, also called SSD.

The 2/3TB Fusion in the 27" iMac has 128GB of SSD. Strongly advise you go for the 512GB pure SSD rather than a Fusion Drive. Don't forget in some countries iMacs are available from Apple refurbished.

If 512GB is not large enough, then an external USB platter drive may be the shot for movies, Photos etc.
If you are buying a 2018 iMac (not the 2017 model being sold as of this posting) then I agree you should pure SSD.
 
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