MP 1,1-5,1 Support NVME boot on Legacy for Mac Pro 5.1

[Schprecher]

hi everyone people. The topic is very relevant and requires your help and attention. I turn to knowledgeable programmers for help. For a very long time I have been worried about the issue of booting Windows 7 or 10 in Legacy mode, with the ability to boot from an NVME drive. In classic Mac Pros, only Bay 1-4 Sata is available in Legacy mode, which nowadays is no longer as fast as NVME. All other machines have support for booting from an NVME drive, natively for example the 2013 imac 27. He can easily install Windows 7 or 10 in Legacy BootCamp mode. And the installation wizard will not shout that he cannot install windows on the drive because something is not included in the BIOS.

In my opinion, CMP does not have a CSM module. Or allowed launch paths from external devices.

I beg you to forget about EFI. because we are talking about Legacy now.

I really ask for the help of understanding people who can do this wonderful thing.

A very interesting fact: If installer booting in Legacy, there is no way to install it on an NVME disk. And if you boot from EFI, there is no way to install the system on a Sata device! I personally tested this on my CMP 5.1 and was very surprised.

i hope guys someone help, to resolve this.

 

[Macschrauber]

If you booted from EFI you already botched your nvram with certificates. I wrote a tool around that issue (at the beginning and it got much bigger). Link in my signature.

You need to secure the nvram of the Mac Pro to dont get certificates. So you will need OpenCore to do that.

Study this post, there is a section about installing UEFI Windows: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...opencore-on-the-mac-pro.2207814/post-27914713

Of course could UEFI Windwos be installed on a Sata disk as well, but thats just a side note.

 

[tsialex]

A very interesting fact: If installer booting in Legacy, there is no way to install it on an NVME disk.

This is correct. There is no support for Legacy boot besides the 6-SATA ports.

And if you boot from EFI, there is no way to install the system on a Sata device! I personally tested this on my CMP 5.1 and was very surprised.

Nope, this is incorrect. You can install Windows UEFI to any of the 6-SATA ports and most PCIe connect drives. The exception for that are some PCIe SATA controllers that have OPROM incompatible with the Mac Pro firmware.

 

[Schprecher]

If you booted from EFI you already botched your nvram with certificates. I wrote a tool around that issue (at the beginning and it got much bigger). Link in my signature.

You need to secure the nvram of the Mac Pro to dont get certificates. So you will need OpenCore to do that.

Study this post, there is a section about installing UEFI Windows: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...opencore-on-the-mac-pro.2207814/post-27914713

Of course could UEFI Windwos be installed on a Sata disk as well, but thats just a side note.

This is all clear with UEFI certificates, etc. We're talking about Legacy. Especially about Windows 7 and NVME.
I'm asking for help with the concept of organizing paths in boot orders, legacy. and Is there a CMP module CSM

I wrote above that do not mention UEFI.

It's a matter of principle to make Legacy work with NVME boot orders

 

[tsialex]

It's a matter of principle to make Legacy work with NVME boot orders

You won't succeed on that, there is no CSM support with PCIe connected drives with any MacPro1,1 to 5,1, Mac Pro firmware design limitation.

Essentially, the MacPro5,1 EFI 1.10 is too old, only newer UEFI Class 2 Macs with TB support can do that.

Btw, I and @joevt already told you that in your previous thread about this:

Samsung SM951 AHCI SSD bootable Mac Pro 5.1

Hi. Guys, can someone confirm to Samsung SM951 AHCI SSD bootable for Mac Pro 4.1 or 5.1 under legacy boot. this I need for install windows 7 on nvme and boot is in legacy. or what nvme drive with AHCI can boot in legacy - for Mac Pro thanks.

forums.macrumors.com

 

[Schprecher]

There is no support for Legacy boot

What about iMac 27 2013. 20 min left , installing windows 7 in legacy on nvme device.
whats wrong with CMP? boot order?

can anyone tell me where to look for boot paths in which EFI module?

 

[Schprecher]

Btw, I and @joevt already told you that in your previous thread about this:

without even understanding the problems. They also once said that Imac cannot install video cards other than those supplied by Apple.

 

[tsialex]

What about iMac 27 2013. 20 min left , installing windows 7 in legacy on nvme device.
whats wrong with CMP? boot order?

can anyone tell me where to look for boot paths in which EFI module?

Apple only implemented legacy support for PCIe connected drives with later Macs that have Thunderbolt. This is the reason that newer Macs can install legacy Windows to a PCIe drive and MacPro5,1 is not capable.

Mac Pro PCIe NVMe support is a around 9 years later afterthought. MacPro5,1 firmware is from the end of 2008, Apple implemented Mac Pro NVMe support back in 2018.

 

[Schprecher]

there is no CSM support

then does iMac 27 2013 have CSM? or....

 

[Schprecher]

This is the reason that newer Macs can install legacy Windows to a PCIe drive

because the community is not interested in this.

Apparently, therefore, the answer will be that this is not possible.

 

[Schprecher]

Mac Pro NVMe and AHCI is a around 9 years later afterthought. MacPro5,1 firmware is from the end of 2008, Apple implemented NVMe support back in 2018.

for example, an imac 27 2009 on C2D can boot with an mxm3.0 pci-e c nvme adapter. There is such an adapter, I saw it on sale. from iBoff

I think Apple didn’t think in 2009 that they would make such an adapter for this device.

A device with stock EFI successfully boots the system in legacy with NVME

 

[tsialex]

because the community is not interested in this.

If was something easy to develop, test, implement and there was demand for it, it would already be done by now.

MacPro5,1 is EFI 1.10, CSM support for NVMe is a UEFI class 2 resource developed years later.

Apparently, therefore, the answer will be that this is not possible.

Reasonable conclusion.

for example, an imac 27 2009 on C2D can boot with an mxm3.0 pci-e c nvme adapter. There is such an adapter, I saw it on sale. from iBoff

I think Apple didn’t think in 2009 that they would make such an adapter for this device.

A device with stock EFI successfully boots the system with NVME

This have zero to do with Legacy Windows support, you can add MacPro5,1 NVMe + APFSJumpStart EFI modules to an early-2008 Mac Pro BootROM and you can successfully boot a non-legacy OS from a NVMe blade. Works perfectly fine for macOS.

 

[Schprecher]

This have zero to do with Legacy Windows support, you can add MacPro5,1 NVMe + APFSJumpStart EFI modules to an early-2008 Mac Pro BootROM and you can successfully boot a non-legacy OS from a NVMe blade. Works perfectly fine for macOS.

According to this scheme, I think there is a way out for old systems like Windows 7.

Why did the community give up on resolving this issue for the legend of the operating system?

I saw a topic here where they installed windows 7 on a new macbook. Why is the community foaming there?
and here there is only one person fighting for the right of Windows 7 to be on an nvme disk and boot in legacy mode

 

[tsialex]

Why and for what you need this?

No one will even look at what is necessary to implement this without a extremely good reason.

Maybe now that OpenCore have legacy Windows support via OpenLegacyBoot, something can be developed and chain loading would be possible.

You could gently ask Goldfish64, the OC developer that implemented OpenLegacyBoot, if is something even feasible.

Implement legacy OS booting support by Goldfish64 · Pull Request #482 · acidanthera/OpenCorePkg

Adds support for booting of legacy OSes such as older versions of Windows or situations where legacy Windows must be used for proper functionality of hardware. Scope includes both Macs (via legacy ...

github.com

 

[Schprecher]

Why and for what you need this?

No one will even look at what is necessary to implement this without a extremely good reason.

Maybe now that OpenCore have legacy Windows support via OpenLegacyBoot, something can be developed and chain loading would be possible. You could ask gently to the OC developer that implemented OpenLegacyBoot if is something even feasible.

I really love Windows 7, beautiful lines, everything is very convenient, practical, the interface is perfectly customizable, rounded.

Windows 7 will boot very quickly from nvme, The system response is like an old Ford with a new engine, it's nice to look at because it's a legend.

Introducing new technologies into old things, using them is a pleasure.

 

[tsialex]

Windows 7 will boot very quickly from nvme

4Kn loading from a good SATA drive and a NVMe blade would be two or three seconds of difference. You never have the NVMe raw performance advantage loading sequentially hundreds of thousands of very small files, like loading a legacy OS. Latency is very different from raw throughput.

Everything that you gain from the massive IOPs of the NVMe you lose with the additional time required for the Mac Pro firmware enumeration of PCIe drives.

Introducing new technologies into old things

 

[Schprecher]

Why and for what you need this?

Steve Wozniak wouldn’t mind if every Apple Mac user could use their device the way they wanted. without any shackles or chains.

If the device is expensive, then I have the right to use any system I want on this device. I pay money for this.

If a new Mac Pro can boot my favorite system and I can use it, I'll go out and buy it, no matter how much it costs me.

 

[tsialex]

If a new Mac Pro can boot my favorite system and I can use it, I'll go out and buy it, no matter how much it costs me.

This statement is not even in the realm of possible since Apple Silicon processors can't do it, 2019 Mac Pro either and no current Intel or AMD CPU can boot Windows 7 natively.

Maybe the newest CPU that can still boot Windows 7 natively is some early series 3xxx Ryzen with a very old AMD motherboard with Legacy-CSM support that still have chipset drivers for Windows 7, like some MSI A320 motherboards. It would be very cumbersome to inject NVMe and USB support to the Windows 7 installer, but several people did it sucessfully.

 

[Schprecher]

4Kn loading from a good SATA drive and a NVMe blade would be two or three seconds of difference. You never have the NVMe raw performance advantage loading sequentially hundreds of thousands small files, like loading an OS. Latency is very different from raw throughput.

Everything that you gain from the massive IOPs of the NVMe you lose with the addtional time required for the MacPro firmware enumeration of PCIe drives.

An example of investing in the technology of the future

how people who can no longer create see him

the lines will never be beautiful again

 

[tsialex]

An example of investing in the technology of the future

how people who can no longer create see him

the lines will never be beautiful again

That what VMs are for. Anyway, good luck.

 

[Schprecher]

Anyway, good luck.

Apple and Microsoft will never ask people what they want and what they will pay money for.
There are people who are accustomed to seeing the elegance of lines in things they are familiar with. The imposition of new things must be voluntary and democratic!

What did it cost Apple to make a new system that supports interfaces from 10.6 or 10.7? people need to be given a choice to what they are used to. Right?

And Windows could do it in a way that left the interface down to the pixel as it was familiar to people who had been working for a long time.
just give a choice of what you love, what was closer.

people should have a choice. After all, they are the future of Apple and Microsoft

 

[Schprecher]

this is the end of Future.

 

[startergo]

You can try this:

[GUIDE] How to get Win7 clean installed onto an NVMe SSD

Introduction: Contrary to the newer Windows Operating Systems neither Windows 7 nor Windows Server 2008 natively do support NVMe. This means, that the NVMe SSD will not be detected at all by the OS Setup routine of the untouched ISO files. This problem can be solved either by loading a matching...

winraid.level1techs.com

Update to add native driver support in NVM Express in Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2 - Microsoft Support

Describes an update that adds native driver support for NVM Express in Windows 7 or Windows Server 2008 R2.

support.microsoft.com

[Guide] Integration of drivers into a Win7-11 Image

@ all users, who want to install Win7, Win8.1 or Win10/11: Introduction: When you are going to do a fresh OS install, it is a good idea to customize the original OS image by integrating the things you need or like to use (special drivers, additional hotfixes, features etc). This way you will...

winraid.level1techs.com

Although:

The OS installation has to be done in UEFI mode by using the GUIMode Partion Table scheme (MBR partition scheme only possible with the Samsung 950 Pro SSD). Otherwise you will not be able to boot off the NVMe SSD.

Duet boot:

Booting the NVME drive from non-UEFI legacy board - DUET with optional REFIND - from command line:

• 1) Connect a USB flash drive and open the Windows Command Prompt with the Run as Administrator option

• 2) In the command prompt CD to the DUET_UDK2019_REFIND folder: cd C:\DUET_UDK2019_REFIND

    Warning.
    The following command will completely remove all information and partitions on the selected DISK volume
    Replace the Drive_Letter: with the USB flash drive letter.

• 3) Remove all information and partitions from the selected DISK volume by typing: CreateUSB Drive_Letter: CLEAN

• 4) Optional format the selected DISK volume with: CreateUSB Drive_Letter: FORMAT

• 5) Make the selected DISK volume bootable by typing: CreateUSB Drive_Letter: BOOT

• 6) Disconnect and plug back the USB flash drive.

• 7) Copy the required DUET files with: CreateUSB Drive_Letter: DUET

• 8) Copy the optional graphical boot manager REFIND: CreateUSB Drive_Letter: REFIND

• 9) Connect the USB on the target system and set Boot from USB as the first option in your system BIOS Boot order

[Guide] NVMe-boot for systems with legacy BIOS and UEFI board (DUET-REFIND)

UEFI DUET Installer - REFIND boot manager PREVIEW ATTENTION! By using these files YOU WILL BE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY TYPE OF DAMAGE !!! • Current download link for DUET (EDK2015) with REFIND included       PROPRIETARY FILE SYSTEM     In case the OS uses some...

winraid.level1techs.com

HP forum:

Updated "Add NVME as Boot Drive using DUET/REFIND method"

if you have a earlier system that does not support booting from a nvme device, you can still add this feature via a software based loader on most of these earlier systems using the DUET/REFIND program(s) note that for the z800 you must use the version 2015 of DUET/REFIND due to it;s triple...

h30434.www3.hp.com

 

[Schprecher]

You can try this:

[GUIDE] How to get Win7 clean installed onto an NVMe SSD

Introduction: Contrary to the newer Windows Operating Systems neither Windows 7 nor Windows Server 2008 natively do support NVMe. This means, that the NVMe SSD will not be detected at all by the OS Setup routine of the untouched ISO files. This problem can be solved either by loading a matching...

winraid.level1techs.com

Update to add native driver support in NVM Express in Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2 - Microsoft Support

Describes an update that adds native driver support for NVM Express in Windows 7 or Windows Server 2008 R2.

support.microsoft.com

[Guide] Integration of drivers into a Win7-11 Image

@ all users, who want to install Win7, Win8.1 or Win10/11: Introduction: When you are going to do a fresh OS install, it is a good idea to customize the original OS image by integrating the things you need or like to use (special drivers, additional hotfixes, features etc). This way you will...

winraid.level1techs.com

Although:

Duet boot:

[Guide] NVMe-boot for systems with legacy BIOS and UEFI board (DUET-REFIND)

UEFI DUET Installer - REFIND boot manager PREVIEW ATTENTION! By using these files YOU WILL BE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY TYPE OF DAMAGE !!! • Current download link for DUET (EDK2015) with REFIND included       PROPRIETARY FILE SYSTEM     In case the OS uses some...

winraid.level1techs.com

this is very useful information. I can even add the best method for Windows 7 in UEFI environment for Mac, and the problem where windows 7 does not install in UEFI due to int10h problem.

I went through all this and have a lot of experience.

Yes, Windows 7 can be installed in UEFI with GPT. defeat the int10h problem, but the result will be a window resolution of 1024x768
and in UEFI Windows 7 easily sees nvme with loading of the disk driver, making it possible to use NVME as a boot one.
but 1024x768 int10h and GOP driver.

The utility is called FlashBoot Pro 3.2x, the options of which are compatible with GOP for Windows 7. The program is paid. the developer of this software is aware of the 1024x768 problem. but this has not been decided yet.
something like VGAShim.
but this is a dirty business: Int10h emulation

Another question, maybe someone understands which driver windows 10 for GOP uses

 

[startergo]

There is also link for DUET boot:

Booting the NVME drive from non-UEFI legacy board - DUET with optional REFIND - from command line:

That is what you want, right?