Switching due to CSAM is drastic and premature

[crymimefireworks]

Switching is drastic. This CSAM feature doesn't affect your daily use at all. It's invisible, zero impact. If Apple hadn't announced it, you wouldn't ever notice it.

Even if you hate the feature, just turn off iCloud Photos and poof it's gone. You can still use all the other iCloud services and just toggle off Photos in future versions of macOS and iOS.

With all that, if you do despise this feature even being on your devices even thought it's disabled, the cost of switching to a new system is high. It's like changing where you live, you're moving files, workflows, and habits; switching out keyboard commands, buying new programs, and missing integration across devices. It means messages that used to be blue are now green and no more Facetime with mom and dad.

Spending a ton of time and money over a little feature is drastic.

It's also premature. The CSAM features aren't even live yet. Apple delayed the launch because of public backlash. There's a possibility that they cancel the features entirely. Just wait and see. Even if this does launch, just keep iCloud off, enjoy your beautiful Mac, and switch to something else next time you upgrade. Switching now means selling iDevices on eBay for cheap and splurging on brand new devices.

Switching now is drastic and premature.

So why did I do it?

I've been a lifelong Mac addict and a big supporter of their privacy work, I loved their billboards and "Mind your own business" ad.

Apple's CSAM announcement threw that all away. They said that looking at photos on my device was okay, because they were on their way to the cloud anyway. "Privacy" meant "privacy from advertisers" apparently, not "privacy from Apple".

It was a big reminder than I'm just a guest in Apple's house. And their weak backpedaling about being "misunderstood" convinced me our paths were parting.

At that point, I concluded my future purchases would not be from Apple.

From that point it's just a matter of timing. I saw two options:

1. stick with my current equipment for the next 5 years, keep iCloud disabled, replace stuff as it breaks
2. Switch out my equipment before then

I got curious about what kind of options were even available. What would be my next computer platform in 5 years? From there, I started looking into Linux and open source. In my testing it I found it's okay, but not great. It doesn't "just work".

Even more reason to just stick it out with Apple, right? Well, to me this all hits back to the root of why I was a Mac addict. I love how Apple makes bleeding edge of technology accessible to so many. When I bought from Apple, it was a vote for the future as well, that I wanted more of the world to work just like this.

That means that if I want my computer options to be great in 5 years, something different needs to happen now. So I bought a Lemur Pro from System76, switched to Linux, and am working on swapping my iPhone with a PinePhone.

It is drastic to switch computer platforms. I decided to switch because I believe Apple is headed down the wrong path and powerless to change direction. I decided to switch *now* to help support the future of open source software and hardware. I want a better future for myself and others. That's why I was a Mac addict -- and why I'm a Linux addict today

 

[cmaier]

Switching is drastic. This CSAM feature doesn't affect your daily use at all. It's invisible, zero impact. If Apple hadn't announced it, you wouldn't ever notice it.

Even if you hate the feature, just turn off iCloud Photos and poof it's gone. You can still use all the other iCloud services and just toggle off Photos in future versions of macOS and iOS.

With all that, if you do despise this feature even being on your devices even thought it's disabled, the cost of switching to a new system is high. It's like changing where you live, you're moving files, workflows, and habits; switching out keyboard commands, buying new programs, and missing integration across devices. It means messages that used to be blue are now green and no more Facetime with mom and dad.

Spending a ton of time and money over a little feature is drastic.

It's also premature. The CSAM features aren't even live yet. Apple delayed the launch because of public backlash. There's a possibility that they cancel the features entirely. Just wait and see. Even if this does launch, just keep iCloud off, enjoy your beautiful Mac, and switch to something else next time you upgrade. Switching now means selling iDevices on eBay for cheap and splurging on brand new devices.

Switching now is drastic and premature.

So why did I do it?

I've been a lifelong Mac addict and a big supporter of their privacy work, I loved their billboards and "Mind your own business" ad.

Apple's CSAM announcement threw that all away. They said that looking at photos on my device was okay, because they were on their way to the cloud anyway. "Privacy" meant "privacy from advertisers" apparently, not "privacy from Apple".

It was a big reminder than I'm just a guest in Apple's house. And their weak backpedaling about being "misunderstood" convinced me our paths were parting.

At that point, I concluded my future purchases would not be from Apple.

From that point it's just a matter of timing. I saw two options:

1. stick with my current equipment for the next 5 years, keep iCloud disabled, replace stuff as it breaks
2. Switch out my equipment before then

I got curious about what kind of options were even available. What would be my next computer platform in 5 years? From there, I started looking into Linux and open source. In my testing it I found it's okay, but not great. It doesn't "just work".

Even more reason to just stick it out with Apple, right? Well, to me this all hits back to the root of why I was a Mac addict. I love how Apple makes bleeding edge of technology accessible to so many. When I bought from Apple, it was a vote for the future as well, that I wanted more of the world to work just like this.

That means that if I want my computer options to be great in 5 years, something different needs to happen now. So I bought a Lemur Pro from System76, switched to Linux, and am working on swapping my iPhone with a PinePhone.

It is drastic to switch computer platforms. I decided to switch because I believe Apple is headed down the wrong path and powerless to change direction. I decided to switch *now* to help support the future of open source software and hardware. I want a better future for myself and others. That's why I was a Mac addict -- and why I'm a Linux addict today

Except you are lying about what csam does. They don’t look at photos on your device, which is what you claimed above. So I assume you have some ulterior motive.

 

[keeper]

Plus you have gone from this which you quit on to this

Ask me anything: I switched from Mac to Linux because of Apple's surveillance

For those that switched off Apple already, share your stories! What hardware or software did you get? What was your decision like? How's it going so far? inspired by this post below by @RightsOfBill and insight from @hashbreaker2021 2 weeks ago I purchased a Lemur Pro laptop from System76. I...

forums.macrumors.com

I’m not sure where your trying to head with this, feels like you are trying to start a following but lack the technical knowledge.

As I said on the other thread , if you want to move form iCloud the logical approach would have been to set a NAS up and create your own cloud across Apple devises and change hardware once you understood the correct direction to go.

Synology Knowledge Center

Synology Knowledge Center offers comprehensive support, providing answers to frequently asked questions, troubleshooting steps, software tutorials, and all the technical documentation you may need.

kb.synology.com

 

[LeeW]

Switching to Linux is ok for a minority, a very small one. If you feel that strongly then good on you for doing something about it.

The reality is that most even if they are triggered by the CSAM issue will either stay put or just wave two fingers at Apple and go to Windows knowing that is not a better solution but it's making a statement.

Said it before, I am over 20 years working with Linux servers, I love it in a server environment and using the command line. Never would I use it as a desktop nor would I recommend it to anyone.

Those that did make the move lasted a month or two at best, some only days when discovering the limitations or work required to get things done normally taken for granted or the inability to run specific software and so on.

Your mileage will vary and it is really dependent on what you want from it but one thing is certain, Linux is too fragmented on the desktop to ever be more than a niche product.

 

[crymimefireworks]

Your mileage will vary and it is really dependent on what you want from it but one thing is certain, Linux is too fragmented on the desktop to ever be more than a niche product.

Appreciate your experienced perspective! I've heard Linux is quite successful in the server market. Is that true in your experience, and how does fragmentation apply?

 

[LeeW]

I've heard Linux is quite successful in the server market. Is that true in your experience

Indeed, around 75% of servers worldwide use Linux. You're browsing a website that relies on Linux. You won't find any of the world's supercomputers running anything but Linux. If you decided to get web hosting to build your own website your options are dominated by Linux, all the cloud providers use it and so on. The internet, in general, relies on Linux and so on.

On the other hand, less than 2% use Linux for their desktop.

There are too many Linux distros, not enough standardization hence fragmentation.

 

[maflynn]

Except you are lying about what csam does. They don’t look at photos on your device, which is what you claimed above. So I assume you have some ulterior motive.

Lying? Seems a bit extreme to accuse another member, based on this one post.

I think you're splitting hairs, no matter how you slice it, Apple was going to access your data on your phone without your permission. Nearly everyone except the most dedicated apple fans thought this was a horrible move - especially from a company that not only marketed itself as security minded but also posted this

 

[cmaier]

Lying? Seems a bit extreme to accuse another member, based on this one post.

I think you're splitting hairs, no matter how you slice it, Apple was going to access your data on your phone without your permission. Nearly everyone except the most dedicated apple fans thought this was a horrible move - especially from a company that not only marketed itself as security minded but also posted this
View attachment 1837401

Except if I explain why you’re wrong you’ll just suspend me, so you go ahead and spread the anti-apple propaganda and I’ll just be quiet.

 

[crymimefireworks]

Indeed, around 75% of servers worldwide use Linux. You're browsing a website that relies on Linux. You won't find any of the world's supercomputers running anything but Linux. If you decided to get web hosting to build your own website your options are dominated by Linux, all the cloud providers use it and so on. The internet, in general, relies on Linux and so on.

On the other hand, less than 2% use Linux for their desktop.

There are too many Linux distros, not enough standardization hence fragmentation.

Appreciate the explanation. Wow 75%, Linux dominates. Since servers can be 75% Linux, why not desktops too?

I'm assuming servers face the same fragmentation issues, or is the server usage more uniform?

 

[LeeW]

I'm assuming servers face the same fragmentation issues

No, not really, everything they need is at the core of Linux so therefore available in every distro or at least simple to install on each one.

What many don't realise is the too many distros are built upon others. In the server world you generally find that centOS is used for web hosting, people who use the cloud more often than not use Debian or Ubuntu. There are differences but too much detail for this thread.

On the desktop Debian is Debian
Ubuntu is based on Debian
Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu which is based on Debian
popOS is based on Ubuntu and so on.

Often the next new distro is simply a copy of an established distro that adds a new 'face' targetted at a particular user to make it easier for the new users or a specific type of user. Call it whatever you want but chances are you have Debian under the hood. The last time I looked over 100 distros were based on Debian directly or via Ubuntu.

Like I say, fragmented. Ubuntu has probably tried harder with most success to turn their distro into something most desktop users were likely to find usable and intuitive. Your mileage will vary, every distro has something but no distro has close to everything the average user would want to make the switch and stay.

 

[crymimefireworks]

Appreciate your insights on the server world. To repeat back, it sounds like the server world is more homogeneous, which is likely part of how Linux achieved that 75% market share.

Often the next new distro is simply a copy of an established distro that adds a new 'face' targetted at a particular user to make it easier for the new users or a specific type of user. Call it whatever you want but chances are you have Debian under the hood. The last time I looked over 100 distros were based on Debian directly or via Ubuntu.

Wow that explains a lot. If distros are simply new faces, why does fragmentation matter? To me it kind of sounds like distros are more akin to "skins" or even desktop wallpapers. As long as the core is good, who cares if there are a lot of different skins?

 

[MBAir2010]

Apple was going to access your data on your phone without your permission. Nearly everyone except the most dedicated apple fans thought this was a horrible move - especially from a company that not only marketed itself as security minded but also posted this

Great reply!
but the "sicko-photo scan thingee" is based on iCloud photos posted.
that every  review article is stating now.

but still the police or some other Local Bureau should be doing this with more vigor.

 

[WriteNow]

Wow that explains a lot. If distros are simply new faces, why does fragmentation matter? To me it kind of sounds like distros are more akin to "skins" or even desktop wallpapers. As long as the core is good, who cares if there are a lot of different skins?

The surface level appearance has not really bothered me. I've done plenty of distro hopping in my time, and I found that I was able to adapt. Even back when the distros weren't all Debian related. (Although, admittedly, I did little tinkering--most of my adminstration was with graphical tools, and while those varied, it was easy to adapt. People doing more tinkering than I did might have had more loyalty to a specific distro.)

 

[LeeW]

Wow that explains a lot. If distros are simply new faces, why does fragmentation matter? To me it kind of sounds like distros are more akin to "skins" or even desktop wallpapers. As long as the core is good, who cares if there are a lot of different skins?

And that is where we start to get into a significantly more in-depth discussion around Linux and distros.

People doing more tinkering than I did might have had more loyalty to a specific distro.)

Often this, even at the package manager level something like centOS with 'yum install PHP' or now 'dnf install php' will only give you a stable version of PHP (an older version), to get better you then need to add the epel and remi repositories to get php8, a lot of people prefer that default approach of stability in centOS where Debian will give you more recent versions by default. Just one example but generally true of all packages you may require.

Its swings and roundabouts are really the points. And it really depends on what you are doing and what suits your needs the best.

Learning Linux properly is a must to get the best experience. Having a desktop experience is great for the end-user but your whole Linux experience will be greatly enhanced if you learn about package management, use the command line and so on.

Getting into and rambling in my own Linux world now which is nothing to do with desktops so I will stop now

 

[crymimefireworks]

And that is where we start to get into a significantly more in-depth discussion around Linux and distros.



Often this, even at the package manager level something like centOS with 'yum install PHP' or now 'dnf install php' will only give you a stable version of PHP (an older version), to get better you then need to add the epel and remi repositories to get php8, a lot of people prefer that default approach of stability in centOS where Debian will give you more recent versions by default. Just one example but generally true of all packages you may require.

Its swings and roundabouts are really the points. And it really depends on what you are doing and what suits your needs the best.

Learning Linux properly is a must to get the best experience. Having a desktop experience is great for the end-user but your whole Linux experience will be greatly enhanced if you learn about package management, use the command line and so on.

Getting into and rambling in my own Linux world now which is nothing to do with desktops so I will stop now

so cool. i want us all sitting by a bonfire hearing you explain linux.

 

[MrTSolar]

Except you are lying about what csam does. They don’t look at photos on your device, which is what you claimed above. So I assume you have some ulterior motive.

The hash happens on-device. The database of hashes is on-device (if/when this rolls out, if it hasn’t already). The device flags photos that match (somehow while simultaneously not knowing the result, which I still don’t get) before uploading them to iCloud. The server tries decrypting the flagged photos, but can only successfully do that with enough flagged photos. This whole system relies on the human review process to weed out any abuse by the database sources. Apple has no way to verify the hash database is only looking for true CSAM until matches are flagged and sent to human review. “But they use two sovereign sources.” Yeah, that likely share databases if not using the same one.

No bueno. I don’t want this on my devices, with or without iCloud. Do server-side scanning on SHARED photos only, not the entire photo library. Apple reports way less than others because sharing a bunch of photos through iCloud is a pain. Way easier to just send the picture through a message or post to social.

 

[mi7chy]

I suspect CSAM is already present and active on iPadOS 14.x and 15.0 because when I do a SMB copy/paste from Windows on iPad Pro M1 there are two pauses, a pause for copy which is unusual behavior compared to other OS' and another pause for paste which is normal. Highly suspect the first pause is hash checksum being performed and reported back to Apple. Noticeable on large half gigabyte or larger files if you want to see for yourself..

 

[WriteNow]

I suspect CSAM is already present and active on iPadOS 14.x and 15.0 because when I do a SMB copy/paste from Windows on iPad Pro M1 there are two pauses, a pause for copy which is unusual behavior compared to other OS' and another pause for paste which is normal. Highly suspect the first pause is hash checksum being performed and reported back to Apple. Noticeable on large half gigabyte or larger files if you want to see for yourself..

I've figured the code probably would there, even if the technology is being delayed. And it wouldn't surprise me if at least part of the system is active--if for no other reason than it could be easier for Apple than disabling.

 

[LeeW]

I've figured the code probably would there

Of course it is, was too late to remove it.

 

[ian87w]

I've figured the code probably would there, even if the technology is being delayed. And it wouldn't surprise me if at least part of the system is active--if for no other reason than it could be easier for Apple than disabling.

Yup. It's only a matter of Apple flipping the switch or not.
I mean why are we hearing so many bugs of iOS15? It's because the team was tasked to do this thing at the last minute between WWDC and now. Imo that's why iOS15 is so bad with so many bugs.

I believe people saying "well, just turn off iCloud," is disingenuous. Cloud services has become part of our computing life. For a lay person wanting to sync and backup their phone, iCloud is practically the only easy choice. After years of building iCloud from .mac/Mobile Me into part of our lives, and now just telling people to not use it? It's literally Apple blackmailing their own customers.

Although most people would just accept it (just like how everyone just accepted Whatsapp's new ToS), I still think it's a good idea to start thinking/planning out contingency plan in case one really have to switch. Unfortunately, most of us are between a rock and a hard place. Linux will never be consumer friendly enough. The other side is either Windows or Google.

 

[WriteNow]

I believe people saying "well, just turn off iCloud," is disingenuous. Cloud services has become part of our computing life. For a lay person wanting to sync and backup their phone, iCloud is practically the only easy choice. After years of building iCloud from .mac/Mobile Me into part of our lives, and now just telling people to not use it? It's literally Apple blackmailing their own customers.

Good points.

And past this, one obvious point: will turning off iCloud still work in a year or two? Or will a future version of the technology scan regardless of iCloud settings, and report to Apple even if iCloud is disabled?

 

[crymimefireworks]

Linux will never be consumer friendly enough.

Linux is not presently consumer friendly enough. But it could be!

That's why I went all in on Linux last month. I'm not a programmer, but I believe I can support with my donations and usage - and complaining - and get Linux to have a consumer friendly option. I'm a lifelong Mac addict, and now I want open source like Linux to take the lead on the "just works" philosophy.

System76 and Pop OS have consumers in mind. So does Elementary OS. So that's different, rather than being for programmers it's designed for regular people (again, not there yet, but that's the goal). And Valve's new handheld gaming machine is all Linux.

Good points.

And past this, one obvious point: will turning off iCloud still work in a year or two? Or will a future version of the technology scan regardless of iCloud settings, and report to Apple even if iCloud is disabled?

My first step to get unaddicted from Apple was to disable iCloud. It really does take away the feeling of polish. No more synced Safari tabs, Notes, or photos. Apple devices quickly feel like just another piece of electronics with iCloud turned off.

 

[maflynn]

Linux is not presently consumer friendly enough. But it could be!

That ship has sailed. The window of opportunity for such a move closed several years ago - [desktop] Linux at this point is relegated to the hobbyist/enthusiast. Its a great OS in many respects, better security and offers things that don't exist in windows/macs

But its clear that what some people perceive as advantages are actually disadvantages. For instance, there is no Linux operating system, but rather distributions and truth be told there's simply too many to be a viable alternative for the average consumer. Then where do you get support? Most distros do not offer any official support - other then user to user.

I've enjoyed using Linux and there's a lot there, but for me, the apps I need don't exist, so that more or less put the kibosh on my foray into Linux - at least right now

What may capture the consumer market is Chromebooks, and its increasing marketshare must have both MS and Apple looking over their shoulder.

 

[keeper]

My first step to get unaddicted from Apple was to disable iCloud. It really does take away the feeling of polish. No more synced Safari tabs, Notes, or photos. Apple devices quickly feel like just another piece of electronics with iCloud turned off.

Let’s be realistic here though, if you disable cloud services from any infrastructure it will feel like that.
As I’ve said before a simple Synology NAS, gives you photo’s , calendar, notes etc back across all devises.
All leaving Apple does is make you use your own skills and research to implement and support your own cloud and backup.

The only real pain is when you have an IOS app that can’t be replicated cross platforms.

 

[MBAir2010]

mr Mac~Y always said
”Using icloud is okay,
okay
storing data on the icloud is bad,
mmn kay!”