TB - is it the future?

[flat five]

I am not against TB, definitively the opposite!

Just worried it is too little, too late and too expensive to really hit off.
My guess is that very much of the market (except Apple) will wait and see, and we will get yet another chicken and egg situation.

It is a port that seems to be aimed at a shrinking segment of workstations and highend laptops. Squeezed between USB3, SAS and fast wireless solutions. Of course, niche manufactories will adapt it, but is it enough?

meh.. who cares.. i mean really, you're talking about a cable..
this isn't even in the same universe as deciding something like 'what software packages should i learn?"

the former is more of a money gamble thing and yes, while thunderbolt is more expensive than some alternatives, it's not a high-dollar purchase.. i mean big deal if you spend $300 on some cables only to find out in 8yrs that you should of bought $150 cables because they're still being used..

the chances of you being burned by using thunderbolt is incredibly low (impossible?).. i know you want to be a smart consumer and all but shouldn't those smart_decisions_making_resources be put to use in other areas of your work? don't waste the energy (or too much energy at least) on worrying about if thunderbolt will 'make it'..

now something like software on the other hand, that to me is a huge and much more meaningful decision because it can take upwards of 5 years to really learn and if you make a mistake with that one, you can't just go throw a few hundred bucks at the problem like you could with a damn cable.. cable = easy fix ... so why sweat it?

 

[Varmann]

meh.. who cares.. i mean really, you're talking about a cable..
this isn't even in the same universe as deciding something like 'what software packages should i learn?"

What cable I use do not matter the slightest, I am very flexible in that respect! As long as there is enough of them

But I think it matter for Apple! If the new TB based MacPro is not regarded "some sort of success", they might end their line of multiport work stations with it, and just go for laptops and Imac in the future.

I can certainly live with 6 TB, HDMI, 3x USB and 2x ethernet.
But only having 2 TB ports? I doubt I could fit my 60 hard disks, film scanner, 3 displays, external soundcard, 2 different speaker setups, wacom, aggregated ethernet, hdmi switch, into that. OSX is my main reason for using Mac, second one is that the old MacPro is a very solid machine and the best computer I ever owned, by far. I certainly like to be able to use OSX as my main OS, but a multiport expandable machine is important to me,

 

[scottsjack]

One of the problems with the TB HD boxes I've seen is that they usually are TB only. There is not much flexibility in a box that only hooks up one way.

On the other hand you can get 4-way boxes from OWC. I've got a couple of Mercury Rack Pro 1U units. I can access them via USB2, USB3, FW400, FW800 or eSATA. That makes them flexible and able to be used by everything I've got and everything I'd like to get.

 

[subsonix]

One of the problems with the TB HD boxes I've seen is that they usually are TB only. There is not much flexibility in a box that only hooks up one way.

On the other hand you can get 4-way boxes from OWC. I've got a couple of Mercury Rack Pro 1U units. I can access them via USB2, USB3, FW400, FW800 or eSATA. That makes them flexible and able to be used by everything I've got and everything I'd like to get.

You would probably get a Thunderbolt box because you need something that is faster than the interfaces you just mentioned. If you look at the Mercury Rack with mini-SAS, it's one port only.

 

[Tesselator]

oh.. right.. still two cables.
what i was saying is that the cables are identical as opposed to one type going to displays and another type going to drives etc..

OIC, right, that's true.

 

[goMac]

There isn't really a substitute for Thunderbolt. It's going to be the future for the users that are reliant on high speed transfers, even if it's not going to be the future for everyone.

Nobody ever asked for a port that could connect a keyboard, a disk drive, and a display all at once.

Where exactly are these Thunderbolt keyboards?

 

[Tesselator]

Where exactly are these Thunderbolt keyboards?

Last paragraph, last sentence, plus image:
https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/17601937/

 

[maflynn]

My $.02

TB is not going to succeed until we see other computer makers embrace the technology. So far from my limited knowledge I don't see that occurring, most seem content to have USB3.

With Apple going at it alone, peripheral makers will be reluctant to go all in on a technology that only a small subset of computer owners will use.

 

[Tesselator]

My $.02

TB is not going to succeed until we see other computer makers embrace the technology. So far from my limited knowledge I don't see that occurring, most seem content to have USB3.

With Apple going at it alone, peripheral makers will be reluctant to go all in on a technology that only a small subset of computer owners will use.

Not sure how you're coming to the conclusion that it hasn't already been embraced. Here are the non-apple systems who are including Thunderbolt:

• Asus P8Z77-V Premium motherboard
• All Asus Z87 motherboards (there will be a lot of these!)
  Reference:
  http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Asus-Thunderbolt-Z87-Haswell,22260.html
  
  All GIGABYTE 7 series motherboards and those include:
• G1. Sniper 3
• GA-Z77X-UD5H-WB WIFI
• GA-Z77X-UD5H
• GA-Z77X-UD3H-WB WIFI
• GA-Z77X-UD3H
• GA-Z77X-D3H
• GA-Z77-D3H
• GA-Z77-DS3H
• GA-Z77P-D3
• G1. Sniper M3
• GA-Z77MX-D3H
• GA-Z77M-D3H
• GA-H77-D3H
• GA-H77M-D3H
  With more coming.
  References:
  http://www.gigabyte.com/microsite/306/images/thunderbolt.html
  http://www.gigabyte.com/press-center/news-page.aspx?nid=1114
  http://www.gigabyte.com/microsite/306/images/model.html

And pretty much any system that sports a Haswell CPU - since a Thunderbolt controller will be integrated into all Haswell CPUs.

I could compile a list of different peripherals from different manufacturers about 3 or 4 times as long but I guess I can just say I looked at them already without having to spend hours compiling the names? Granted most of the above motherboards are sporting TB v1 ports but I guess that just means Apple with TB v2 is ahead of the curve?

 

[maflynn]

The embrace is slow, and most consumers don't build their own computers. Until we start seeing the major computer makers fully commit to the TB, its not going to take off.

I understand that Lenovo and Acer both have a single model with TB, but there needs to be a more widespread adoption before drive makers, and others start committing to resources

 

[Tesselator]

The embrace is slow, and most consumers don't build their own computers. Until we start seeing the major computer makers fully commit to the TB, its not going to take off.

I understand that Lenovo and Acer both have a single model with TB, but there needs to be a more widespread adoption before drive makers, and others start committing to resources

Oh, consumer embrase... Like an installed base, ya, not just yet. That's an interesting point tho. I wonder if eventually internal TB interfaces will replace SATA spec connectors on the actual drives? And if it does, what will the cable look like? Something like the SCSI cables of old with daisy-chained headers?

 

[phoenixsan]

The OP.....

states the issue very clearly. Still, seems to me, we have to wait and see on TB techno. But I will say, and can be proved wrong, if TB dont take off in the next 3-5 years, would become a niche solution.

TB techno really have to outperform current standards. No "theoretically", but real world performance....and the price, IMHO, is the main deterrent....

 

[gnasher729]

One of the disappointments is the slow emergence (and sometimes half-baked designs) of Thunderbolt docks. Otherwise, these would be what "the rest of us" used Thunderbolt for.

And the excessive prices. If I buy two external USB3 hard drives, a dock that allows me to attach both to a single Thunderbolt port shouldn't cost more than one of the drives, and that with two spare USB ports and an Ethernet and FW port.

----------

With Apple going at it alone, peripheral makers will be reluctant to go all in on a technology that only a small subset of computer owners will use.

There are only two kinds of Thunderbolt devices that make actual sense:

1. Hubs that allow you to attach half a dozen or a dozen other devices.
2. Any device for which USB 3 is too slow (SSD RAID, or specialist devices).

Hub in a display makes a lot of sense - doesn't take desk space, has a strong power supply already, doesn't waste a port on the computer. If you put that into a 21 or 24" display at a reasonable price, you'd have a lot of buyers; and you would sell a display and Thunderbolt hub at the same time.

 

[alex0002]

All GIGABYTE 7 series motherboards and those include:

• G1. Sniper 3
• GA-Z77X-UD5H-WB WIFI
• GA-Z77X-UD5H
• GA-Z77X-UD3H-WB WIFI
• GA-Z77X-UD3H
• GA-Z77X-D3H
• GA-Z77-D3H
• GA-Z77-DS3H
• GA-Z77P-D3
• G1. Sniper M3
• GA-Z77MX-D3H
• GA-Z77M-D3H
• GA-H77-D3H
• GA-H77M-D3H

With more coming.
References:
http://www.gigabyte.com/microsite/306/images/thunderbolt.html
http://www.gigabyte.com/press-center/news-page.aspx?nid=1114
http://www.gigabyte.com/microsite/306/images/model.html

I have the GA-Z77-D3H and I'd like to be able to use the same external storage with the GA-Z77-D3H and the Mac. Please show me where to find the Thunderbolt port(s) on that board.

How many in that list actually do have the Thunderbolt interfaces?

And pretty much any system that sports a Haswell CPU - since a Thunderbolt controller will be integrated into all Haswell CPUs.

Just like the list for the series 7 motherboards above, I suspect that only a very small number of Gigabyte series 8 (Haswell) boards will have the Thunderbolt port(s) due to the cost. Yes, in theory they could add it, but in most cases I suspect they won't because most people don't want to pay for the cost of the interface and peripherals.

Here I can see one motherboard in the Gigabyte 8 series range with Thunderbolt:
http://www.gigabyte.com/MicroSite/334/images/spec.html

That would be the GA-Z87X-UD5 TH which is listed as "coming soon" and it appears that if I want Thunderbolt from Gigabyte (for Haswell), then I need that motherboard which is an eATX form factor, which means it might not fit in a standard ATX case.

So when we say "pretty much any system that sports a Haswell CPU", what we really mean is a very small percentage of the Haswell motherboards that we can actually purchase right now.

I'm guessing less that one percent of the Haswell motherboards sold are delivered with Thunderbolt?

I'd like to be wrong on this, because as I mentioned, I'd like to be able to share fast storage (and other devices) between all my pc and Mac machines.

 

[flowrider]

Any of you folks recall these:

NuBus
DB-15
DB-19
SCSI (DB-25)
Various unique PDS slots used by Macintosh SE, SE/30, LC, LC II, Portable
ADB
ADC
Firewire (both 400 @ 800)

All either unique to Apple or highly touted by Apple.

I've used Macintoshes since 1985 and yes, I remember all of them. Will TB become another causality?

 

[Macsonic]

The embrace is slow, and most consumers don't build their own computers. Until we start seeing the major computer makers fully commit to the TB, its not going to take off.

I understand that Lenovo and Acer both have a single model with TB, but there needs to be a more widespread adoption before drive makers, and others start committing to resources

I share the same observation as yours on TB. It has not taken off at a mainstream level yet. I think 3rd party manufacturers will always look at the bottom line or sales figures before they decide to go full blast with TB technology. This Article HERE also echoes your observation.

 

[subsonix]

There are only two kinds of Thunderbolt devices that make actual sense:

1. Hubs that allow you to attach half a dozen or a dozen other devices.
2. Any device for which USB 3 is too slow (SSD RAID, or specialist devices).

3. Displays - allows to daisy chain several.
4. PCIe expansion.


It think Thunderbolt is most appealing for portable computers, which is where the bulk of the market is at the moment. Viewing Thunderbolt as a Displayport on steroids makes more sense than to view it as strictly a data port, many computers already have Displayport.

Not everything has to be lowest common denominator, mass consumer products.

 

[Tesselator]

I have the GA-Z77-D3H and I'd like to be able to use the same external storage with the GA-Z77-D3H and the Mac. Please show me where to find the Thunderbolt port(s) on that board.

How many in that list actually do have the Thunderbolt interfaces?

It looks like I quoted a list of Z77 boards instead of Z87. Strange that, that had those listed on their Z87 page. Weird. Oh well. Sorry.

I'm guessing less that one percent of the Haswell motherboards sold are delivered with Thunderbolt?

I'd like to be wrong on this, because as I mentioned, I'd like to be able to share fast storage (and other devices) between all my pc and Mac machines.

Well, if they don't they will be wasting a controller they paid for. That doen't sound like most HW manufacturers to me - even tho Apple seems to have done that with the SATA ports.

So, where's a list of the Z87 motherboards?

 

[Menel]

How long did any of those interfaces really take to take off?

Take USB 1.0 formalised in Nov 95 but when the first iMac was released in August 98 support for the interface was fairly weak but certainly starting to pick up.

Pretty sure it's not meant to replace low end USB uses which would likely either stay base speed USB or maybe go wireless.

It would compete with USB3.0 applications that use the speed.

Even the USB3.0 standard was ratified late 2008 then took 2-3 years to even become mainstream on the PC side and Apple was slower still.

Ethernet took almost a decade to take off.
Wifi the standard was 96 but the wifi marketing name wasn't till 2000 when it really started to take off on both windows and mac sides of fence.

Has potential in uses with money to spend to get results, yet to early to tell.
So is it the future?
I'd have to say a good solid maybe.

Same for Windows, Win98 didnt fully support either.

Good USB support didnt exist until Win2000 or XP.

These things take time.

 

[cube]

One of the problems with the TB HD boxes I've seen is that they usually are TB only. There is not much flexibility in a box that only hooks up one way.

Yes, besides the price, that 's why I went with an "obsolete" quad-interface RAID box.

 

[hfg]

I share the same observation as yours on TB. It has not taken off at a mainstream level yet. I think 3rd party manufacturers will always look at the bottom line or sales figures before they decide to go full blast with TB technology. This Article HERE also echoes your observation.

Acer usage of Thunderbolt may be limited in the future as well:

Acer dumps Thunderbolt ports from new PCs in favor of USB 3.0

http://www.neowin.net/news/acer-dumps-thunderbolt-ports-from-new-pcs-in-favor-of-usb-30

 

[MacVidCards]

Acer usage of Thunderbolt may be limited in the future as well:

Acer dumps Thunderbolt ports from new PCs in favor of USB 3.0

http://www.neowin.net/news/acer-dumps-thunderbolt-ports-from-new-pcs-in-favor-of-usb-30

What do you know? When people had to choose between 2 things that did same thing they went with the cheaper one.

Acer & it's customers voted with their wallets. TB was an answer to a question that none of their customers asked.

 

[theluggage]

And the excessive prices. If I buy two external USB3 hard drives, a dock that allows me to attach both to a single Thunderbolt port shouldn't cost more than one of the drives, and that with two spare USB ports and an Ethernet and FW port.

I don't think its a surprise that it looks expensive if you see it primarily as an alternative to a USB3 hub. A TB dock will also connect your USB devices, and your ethernet, audio, Firewire and/or eSATA on some docks, as well as your 2560x1440 display - it will also add USB3 to Macs that don't support it.

There are USB3 devices that offer to do the same thing, but AFAIK they rely on compression for the video - I'd be tempted to try one to see how it copes if you 'load it up' - except I've got a 2011 MacBook Pro with no USB3.

Any of you folks recall these:
NuBus

Served the Mac 2 range well for many years, I recall...

DB-15
DB-19

What? Those are just sizes of D-connectors that were used for all manner of purposes on all manner of computer systems.

SCSI (DB-25)

If you think that SCSI was either a failure or proprietary to Apple then you should have done a bit more research. It is/was the industry standard disc interface for workstation/server-grade systems for years.

Various unique PDS slots used by Macintosh SE, SE/30, LC, LC II, Portable

...never touted as anything other than proprietary internal expansion slots for small-form-factor systems.

ADB

...again, used for many years until USB came along.

ADC

I'll give you that one.

Firewire (both 400 @ 800)

Yup, the standard interface for digital video & audio devices for many years, many PCs have FireWire (or iLink) interfaces, heaps of external FW drives & enclosures still on the market. Probably run its course now, but hardly a failure.

 

[subsonix]

Acer usage of Thunderbolt may be limited in the future as well:

Acer dumps Thunderbolt ports from new PCs in favor of USB 3.0

http://www.neowin.net/news/acer-dumps-thunderbolt-ports-from-new-pcs-in-favor-of-usb-30

So?


"There are more than a dozen new 4th-Generation Intel Core processor-based platforms already launched with Thunderbolt, including from Lenovo, Dell, Asus, and others, with more coming throughout 2013."



"It is not targeted to be on mid-range or value systems in the next couple of years."


The fact that Apple includes this interface across all it's computers means that the market for peripheral vendors targeting the Apple platform have a much larger market than the PCIe card market, that has always been limited to the Mac Pro.

There are other interfaces primarily targeted to the more high-end computers, Express Card and Firewire comes to mind. Many professionals working with laptops have explicitly picked models with these interfaces.

This whole discussion is remarkably similar to the Mac vs PC discussion during the Wintel hay day, similar arguments, limited market share etc etc.

Acer apparently doesn't feel like targeting this group at this point, ok.. It's not news that there are many low end laptops to be found, with zero margins, but it's a market Apple never has been interested in.

Yup, the standard interface for digital video & audio devices for many years, many PCs have FireWire (or iLink) interfaces, heaps of external FW drives & enclosures still on the market. Probably run its course now, but hardly a failure.

Exactly, those who call Firewire a failure haven't paid attention.

 

[Tesselator]

What do you know? When people had to choose between 2 things that did same thing they went with the cheaper one.

Acer & it's customers voted with their wallets. TB was an answer to a question that none of their customers asked.

Not quite. For those who didn't read the article, it says:

Even though Acer has decided to abandon Thunderbolt, Intel publicly says that its adoption on Windows PCs is actually increasing. Jason Ziller, director of Intel's Client Connectivity Division, stated, "There are more than a dozen new 4th-Generation Intel Core processor-based platforms already launched with Thunderbolt, including from Lenovo, Dell, Asus, and others, with more coming throughout 2013."

Ziller does admit that Thunderbolt ports can only be found on higher end Windows PCs at the moment. He stated, "It is not targeted to be on mid-range or value systems in the next couple of years."

So in the case of the Aspire S5 Ultrabook value laptop it's more a case of "ya get what ya pay for".

But it does seem like there's some overlap and perhaps some interesting struggles coming:

Intel will offer a limited launch of Thunderbolt 2, which will offer data transfer speed of up to 20 gigabits per second, in 2013, with a full launch in 2014. Meanwhile the USB 3.0 Promoter Group has announced plans for a "SuperSpeed" version of USB 3.0 that will increase its data speeds to up to 10 gigabites per second and will be backwards compatible with USB 2.0 and the current 3.0; It does not yet have a launch date.

Fun stuff! Good times! I want both.