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Originally posted by dubbelhund


Again Imalave is pulling random assumptions out of his ass!

Ok, I'll take your disingenuous approach of posting a quote and then claiming that I'm not drawing any conclusions :rolleyes:

So here ya go, from the Alan Guttmacher Institute:

....Because poor and low-income teenagers are somewhat more likely than higher income adolescents to be sexually active and somewhat less likely to use contraceptives or to use them successfully, pregnancy is much more common among lower income teenagers. Poor and low-income adolescents, for example, account for 73% of women aged 15-19 who get pregnant, even though they make up only 38% of all women in that age group....

....As a result of differences in pregnancy and abortion rates, poor and low-income teenagers account for 83% of adolescents who have a baby and become a parent and 85% of those who become an unwed parent. By contrast, higher income teenagers, who make up 62% of all women aged 15-19, represent only 17% of those who give birth....

....Conclusion

Sexual activity is now common among teenagers in the United States, and there is little difference in levels of sexual activity among adolescents of different income levels. However, poor and low-income teenagers are less likely to use contraceptives when they have intercourse (although a large majority do), and thus are more likely to experience an unplanned pregnancy. When they do get pregnant, teenagers from disadvantaged families are also less likely than their more affluent peers to have an abortion; about 60% of poor teenagers and nearly half of low-income adolescents continue their pregnancy and give birth. All too often, the poorest of these young women have-and perceive that they have-futures that are bleak. They see little reason why having a baby now will make their lives "worse," or, conversely, why waiting until later will make their lives "better."

A major challenge for policymakers is to provide these young women with realistic incentives to wait. That means guaranteeing them-and their partners-access to the education and training that will enable them to get good jobs, which, in turn, will give these young people reason to hope that their lives will improve. It also means assuring that family planning and abortion services are widely available on a voluntary basis to all poor and low-income teenagers who want to delay having a baby.

Efforts to prevent adolescent pregnancies and births must be targeted not just at those already poor or currently living in welfare families, but at all women at risk of poverty and welfare, since research shows that most young women who give birth as a teenager do not immediately go on welfare. Eventually, however, many fall into poverty, and very often, welfare dependency....




So while YOU may not have drawn a conclusion, the Alan Guttmacher Institute certainly has. And as the text above shows their position is clearly that teenage pregnancy is almost entirely a problem of POVERTY and HOPELESSNESS. Notice that the they're advocating "education and training that will enable them to get good jobs, which, in turn, will give these young people reason to hope that their lives will improve". THIS is the education that will REALLY make a difference, not education on how to put on a freakin' condom! Not that that's not a good thing to know, but I'm just pointing out that I think it's overemphasized in the debate over teen pregnancy.
 
Originally posted by lmalave


I don't have to be an expert to see that the very data that you provide is contradicting your thesis. Sex education can make a marginal difference yes, but again, how do you explain that Sweden has 5 times the teenage pregnancy rate of Japan? The logical conclusion to be drawn is that there is a characteristic of Japanese society that's at work there, and I don't know anything about Japan's sex education programs but I doubt that's the reason. Simply stating differences between countries proves nothing. To try to prove a link to sex education you'd have to do before/after studies, seen what effect a sex education program had in a school, city, state, etc. after it was implemented.

You're right, my evidence is anectodal and not scientific. I grew up poor, as did my parents and their parents and their parents and so forth. I have cousins that were pregnant as teenagers and dropped out of high school. My father is a social worker that's worked in impoverished schools at both the middle school and high school level (and is also a certified sex therapist - but that's for adults). My mother has worked in community centers for immigrants where among other things they gave out free condoms. In fact, when I started dating in high school she brought me a bunch of condoms in various textures and colors (much to my chagrin at the time).

HOWEVER, let me point out that a lot of the "studies" that you read about are NOT based on rigorous accepted scientific methodolgies either. The are just policy papers that use "evidence" selectively to "prove" a point that they feel is obvious. Just because a paper is eloquently written does NOT mean it's true. Aristotle, after all, thought it was obvious that heavy objects fell faster than lighter objects, and it's certainly not because he wasn't smart! It just seemed "obvious".

And if you really want to get into a discussion of why Sweden is better than the U.S., than who's the arrogant one? I think you have to be more precise: Sweden is more egalitarian than the U.S., NOT "20 years ahead" in living standards, education, and health as you maintain. Yes, the median standard of living is higher in Sweden (despite what Americans would like to think - they look at averages that are skewed by the millionaires that own almost half the wealth in the U.S.). But by the same token I'm fairly certain that for the top 40% or so in the U.S., education and health are far superior than for the top 40% in Sweden (especially if you take into account college-level education). The best universities in the world are in the U.S., as well as many of the top medical institutions, and those can can afford it receive the full benefit of these.


I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU. :)

Believe me, I am not arrogant. As I said, I am only speaking from personal experience. I am not trying to put the US down, It is just that I am chocked by the differences in the quality of life between the two countries.
 
Originally posted by lmalave


Ok, I'll take your disingenuous approach of posting a quote and then claiming that I'm not drawing any conclusions :rolleyes:

So here ya go, from the Alan Guttmacher Institute:

....Because poor and low-income teenagers are somewhat more likely than higher income adolescents to be sexually active and somewhat less likely to use contraceptives or to use them successfully, pregnancy is much more common among lower income teenagers. Poor and low-income adolescents, for example, account for 73% of women aged 15-19 who get pregnant, even though they make up only 38% of all women in that age group....

....As a result of differences in pregnancy and abortion rates, poor and low-income teenagers account for 83% of adolescents who have a baby and become a parent and 85% of those who become an unwed parent. By contrast, higher income teenagers, who make up 62% of all women aged 15-19, represent only 17% of those who give birth....

....Conclusion

Sexual activity is now common among teenagers in the United States, and there is little difference in levels of sexual activity among adolescents of different income levels. However, poor and low-income teenagers are less likely to use contraceptives when they have intercourse (although a large majority do), and thus are more likely to experience an unplanned pregnancy. When they do get pregnant, teenagers from disadvantaged families are also less likely than their more affluent peers to have an abortion; about 60% of poor teenagers and nearly half of low-income adolescents continue their pregnancy and give birth. All too often, the poorest of these young women have-and perceive that they have-futures that are bleak. They see little reason why having a baby now will make their lives "worse," or, conversely, why waiting until later will make their lives "better."

A major challenge for policymakers is to provide these young women with realistic incentives to wait. That means guaranteeing them-and their partners-access to the education and training that will enable them to get good jobs, which, in turn, will give these young people reason to hope that their lives will improve. It also means assuring that family planning and abortion services are widely available on a voluntary basis to all poor and low-income teenagers who want to delay having a baby.

Efforts to prevent adolescent pregnancies and births must be targeted not just at those already poor or currently living in welfare families, but at all women at risk of poverty and welfare, since research shows that most young women who give birth as a teenager do not immediately go on welfare. Eventually, however, many fall into poverty, and very often, welfare dependency....




So while YOU may not have drawn a conclusion, the Alan Guttmacher Institute certainly has. And as the text above shows their position is clearly that teenage pregnancy is almost entirely a problem of POVERTY and HOPELESSNESS. Notice that the they're advocating "education and training that will enable them to get good jobs, which, in turn, will give these young people reason to hope that their lives will improve". THIS is the education that will REALLY make a difference, not education on how to put on a freakin' condom! Not that that's not a good thing to know, but I'm just pointing out that I think it's overemphasized in the debate over teen pregnancy.

Now you're makin' sense. :)
 
Look, this isn't about statistics. This is about a moral, and religious issue to me. Period. If the class is taught from a standpoint of anatomy, and to dispell myths, and controception, that is fine, but the overall message should be that abstinence is your #1, best and only option to be 100% sure that you would not contract an STD, get pregnant, or experience other problems.


NOTHING but that is 100%. Nothing. My wife and I used two forms of controception, and guess what? We have a daughter. That is my point. Don't give all the information to leave out the most important part. Reality is that the majority of schools do not teach abstience. They do in the south (Thank God), but not in other parts of the country. I just think it is a mistake to let school boards dictate to parents that they will not give the child the entire truth.

And sorry, but to send a child to study hall is punishment. No way around it.

Teach the class for 100% knowledge, and I am all for it. Teach it any other way, and it is a violation of my freedom of religion, and thus unconstitutional. Period.

Oh, and just curious, how many of you actually have daughters now, at this point in your life?
 
No children just yet. I come from a family with an average income. I wen't to one of the two toughest and most expensive colleges in the US on full scholarship. I am in the process of getting my dream job and as soon as me and my wife are settled (after buying a house) we will start thinking about having kids.

I have had plenty of sex before marriage, always used condoms, never gotten anyone pregnant, and never contracted any STD's and now I am happily married.

oh, and anyone who is too sure of anything creeps me out, especially if it involves religion.
 
Originally posted by dubbelhund



I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU. :)

Believe me, I am not arrogant. As I said, I am only speaking from personal experience. I am not trying to put the US down, It is just that I am chocked by the differences in the quality of life between the two countries.

Europe is just in general more civilized, I think. In many respects the U.S. is still the "Wild West" - still a country in development despite also being the home of some of the greatest human achievements.

Aslo keep in mind that in Europe, population growth has essentially stopped (and in fact the birth rates are below even the replacement level), which means that you are now seeing an unprecedented accumulation of wealth. This is a very different situation than the U.S. where the population has grown by 50% just in my 30-year lifetime, about 2/3 of that growth coming from immigration.
 
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Teach the class for 100% knowledge, and I am all for it. Teach it any other way, and it is a violation of my freedom of religion, and thus unconstitutional. Period.

Hmmm...this logic makes me uncomfortable. I don't think that something being taught or done that is offensive to a particular religion being is an unconstitutional violation of freedom of religion. I mean, there are religions where boys and girls learning together in the same school would be considered extremely offensive, and yet we don't make it a policy to not do anything that might offend any religion. Education would be impossible if we applied that criteria.

I think a violation of the constitution would be something more along the lines of promoting a specific religion. So if in a history class a teacher started preaching gospel as if it was fact - that would be a violation (e.g. specifically promoting Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc). I don't think any secular teaching that is merely offensive to a particular religion would fall under the same category.
 
Originally posted by dubbelhund
I wen't to one of the two toughest and most expensive colleges in the US on full scholarship.

Just out of curiosity, what do you consider the two toughest collegest in the U.S.? Do you mean "tough" as in tough to get into, or "tough" as in having the most rigorous academic program?

In terms of "tough" to get into, in my opinion Harvard is still the standard-bearer as the most prestigious college both in the U.S. and abroad. I'm not sure which one I think would be the 2nd most prestigious. Probably Stanford, Yale, or Princeton.

In terms of rigor, though, I believe Caltech and MIT are definitely the two most rigorous programs. But I guess that shows my science/tech bias...
 
Originally posted by Backtothemac

Teach the class for 100% knowledge, and I am all for it. Teach it any other way, and it is a violation of my freedom of religion, and thus unconstitutional. Period.

Not sure how else it would be taught? This article may have been an exteme example... but my sex ed when I was in school was factual.

Like I said, I don't think most sex ed classes are preaching that pre-martial sex is encouraged.

arn
 
okay how about a quick poll here?

what age did each person here lose their virginity??

me...15.

FIFTEEN.

i wasnt a really popular guy, i wasnt the cool guy. i was just a normal guy, didnt get into trouble, very smart. i still lost my virginity at 15. the AVERAGE girl loses her virginity at 17. the AVERAGE male loses his at 15.

regardless of what you may be teaching YOUR kids, teenagers are having sex. they need to be taught how to do it safely and they also need to be taught that abstinence is the only true safe sex. kids SHOULD be taught how to use condoms. its just a fact of life. knowledge is power.

one of the main problems of sex education today is the only thing they teach is abstinence. thats like teaching your child that fighting is bad and wrong, but not making sure that he or she can defend his or her self if the situation calls for it. you'd almost rather the child get beaten or raped than use the necessary force to get out of the situation. a biting analogy yes, but principally the same.
 
Nope.

They only try to teach abstinence!?? They had condoms out at my college like candy. I think America needs to get under control. I am almost 19 and have never had sex. Nor am I ugly or a dork. I just don't have sex or perform sexual acts. I've been in plenty of situations where I could have but didn't. It's not hard to do people. I think society needs to shift gears, sex is way to excepted and causes way to many problems. For me kissing a girl is special, a big deal, love is supposed to be beautiful not dirty. I gotta get to class... I'll talk later.
 
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