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M720 Tiny:
  • Upgrade to i3-8100T (.5GHz slower core frequency than the Mini's i3-8100B) Added by OP is totally insignificant
  • Upgrade to Windows 10 Pro
  • Upgrade to 4GBx2 (which Lenovo list as DDR4 2666MHz but Intel say the 8100B only supports 2400MHz)
  • Downgrade to "None" SATA Hard Drive
  • Upgrade to 256GB M.2 NVMe SSD
  • Upgrade to Intel Wifi+Bluetooth
  • Downgrade to no Mouse/Keyboard (I forgot to do this last time.. Saved $20!)
  • Upgrade to HDMI port
  • Upgrade to additional USB Type-C port.

Weirdly, this now shows me a different price to last time - $664.
Then you are doing something wrong. The same configuration without a keyboard or mouse is $579 with the promotional discounts the price drops to $488.70

*I'll repeat again that I created this thread NOT as a PC vs Mac comparison as to which one is better although as usual it always gets twisted and the Mac crowd has to get defensive. I posed a rhetorical question as to why Apple could not find a better way to design their new 2018 Mac Mini with the user in mind for "repairability purposes" because other companies are doing it and that's why I posted pictures. Apple made it's decision to further squeeze it's customers for more money. I'm fine with that although unsurprisingly one person in this thread got the correct answer. Everyone else just decided to wave their Apple Logo flag.
 
Then you are doing something wrong.
I’m just telling you what options I picked and what price it gave me. How can I be doing something “wrong”?

The same configuration
The same as what?

I created this thread NOT as a PC vs Mac comparison
You definitely posed it that way.

with the user in mind for "repairability purposes" because other companies are doing it

And yet you never mentioned this, once.
 
"Tinkerability" is a selling point to a particular market segment. It is not a universally-desired trait. Appearance is a selling point to a particular market segment. The OS is a selling point to a particular market segment. Simplified purchase decision is another. And so on. Every manufacturer tries to distinguish its products in a crowded marketplace.

So, why doesn't Apple do [your favorite missing feature here]? Because it's been considered and discarded as being sub-optimal to Apple's goals. If you wish, anytime any business makes a decision you can attribute it to corporate greed/self-interest. It is, after all, a business not a charity.

I'm not sure how many younger people are familiar with the 1930s-1960s automotive hot-rodding world (which became high-tech, big-bucks NHRA and NASCAR, but I digress), but I see a lot of parallels to computing. Most early hot-rodding was based on the Ford Model T and similar early mass-market autos. Like PC clones from the 1980s and '90s, those cars were designed to be easily built and to be easily maintained by end-users who could not yet depend on the existence of motor vehicle-friendly roads, roadside assistance, and dense networks of repair shops and parts distributors. If you broke down on a back road, you'd could only hope that farmhouse a few miles back had a telephone.

The same traits that made these vehicles inexpensive to build by relatively unskilled labor and (relatively) easy for an owner to repair made them very easy to upgrade/modify for racing. Now, Ford didn't plan to build cars that, 10-30 years later might be stripped down and built-up for racing. Ford was concerned with its own manufacturing costs and meeting the current realities of the end-user.

Over time, as manufacturing techniques became more sophisticated, cars required less and less routine maintenance. Those maintenance skills required greater knowledge, more specialized tools, etc. Road conditions and service networks became more auto-friendly. A large percentage of vehicle owners were happy to abandon the role of grease monkey, and as auto ownership continued to grow, many new owners never had to learn about what was going on under the hood (or bonnet, depending where you live).

Like those Model T Fords, the easily-modified PCs of yesteryear were not built to please hot-rodders. They were a manufacturing necessity. A relatively small computer dealer with a couple of smart employees could specify and produce a house-branded box, and by selecting from the available lineup of power supplies, mother boards, HDDs; graphics, sound, and I/O cards, CPU and RAM options, etc., offer a distinctive hardware configuration at an attractive price point. Every part, including the BIOS and OS, was a commodity. CPUs were socketed for the convenience of motherboard makers and PC packagers - one motherboard instead of many, with no need to scrap existing motherboard inventory when Intel brought out a new generation of chips. Intel became a dominant maker of motherboards, adding more and more functions to the motherboard, in large part to ensure more of its chips would be incorporated into the final product. Card slots were no longer a necessity. And as HDD capacities grew, HDD cost-per-byte shrank, and file systems evolved to address those huge drives efficiently, even drive slot requirements dried up for all but the most storage-hungry applications.

Now, the same traits that made it easy to churn out clones also made it easy for a certain segment of the end-user community to "hot-rod" and/or extend the life of those clones. But make no mistake - the clone-makers always preferred to sell a new box every three years to customers who just wanted a plug-and-play solution. The initial configuration was their unique selling proposition - get exactly what you want, right out of the box. Since nearly every part inside their box was available from multiple sources, there was no guarantee a tinkerer would ever return, so why please them? Meanwhile, even then, the bigger makers like IBM, Compaq, and Apple were engineering boxes with proprietary components, BIOSes, etc. After all, that's the way things had always been done in the heyday of the mainframe. All this PC-standard clone stuff was an aberration and abomination to them (and still is to Apple, who has succeeded gloriously using that age-old business model - Tim Cook's IBM and Compaq pedigree was exactly what Steve Jobs was looking for).

Today's PCs are, for the most part, like today's cars. The vast majority are now portables/mobiles, where shock/vibration-resistance, weight, and size requirements run 100% contrary to the hot-rodders' desires. They're equivalent to Swiss watches - difficult to design and build, with nearly all-custom parts and with nearly every component securely soldered in place to reduce initial selling price and extend long-term reliability.

There are far fewer manufacturers in the game, each producing a relative handful of designs and configurations in quantities the clone-makers could only dream of. These are sold in sufficient quantities that the benefits of slot-free/socket-less construction outweigh the manufacturing flexibility that the old designs allowed. Those same benefits and techniques extend to desktops. Why have a big card cage when every function that formerly required a separate card is now integrated into a single SOC or a half-dozen chips on the main logic board (motherboard is a misnomer when there are no daughter cards)?

When these big companies produce customizable designs it's done with barely a nod to after-sale modification. It's so they can produce customized configurations for large corporate customers and big box retail chains. In the case of this ThinkCentre, Lenovo seems to be aiming towards corporate customers who want to be able to strip things down to a particular definition of "bare minimum" for armies of clerks, call center workers, or price-sensitive retail consumers - small footprint, small capabilities, small price. A tinkerer can take advantage of this to buy ultra-cheap and upgrade when they scrape together the bucks, but make no mistake, tinkerers are a tertiary market for this line.

Meanwhile, Apple has pushed the Mini's configuration a bit upscale in the most recent version - the only point of comparison with that Lenovo is its footprint. Since Apple does not produce retailer-unique configurations and prefers to sell corporate clients on iMac's all-in-one convenience (not to mention preventing the purchase of a third-party display that reduces Apple's share of the capital budget)... there's no need to include features that would make Mini (incidentally) tinker-friendly.

Case closed (so to speak).
 
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They are okay, but Lenovo does have some weird things that they lockdown on.

I have a Thinkcentre M73 Tiny (quad core i5-4590T) that I picked up awhile back for my GF to use. It had 4GB and a 500GB SSHD and that model didn't include a wifi/BT card. I upgraded the SSHD to an 800GB SSD and swapped the 4GB for 16GB. It was a pain to get the system to recognize the SSD and it took awhile to get the drive cloned and have windows setup properly on it.

As for the Wifi card I figured, no problem as I had some spare ones lying around from other laptops. I installed one that I knew worked and got nothing. I though I'd try again and I pulled another Wifi card from a Lenovo laptop of the same era that I have and I had no luck with that either. After I checked online and saw that Lenovo locks down their Wifi cards and only certain ones are whitelisted by them. Looking around I saw that the whitelisted card "used" is fairly expensive for a wifi card and I ended up just picking up a USB Wifi adapter to use instead.
There were a lot of complaints about the Whitelist lockdown that I saw on Lenovo forums.

I got everything working, but it was definitely a hassle and I'll probably go with another brand if I pick up another Windows computer.
 
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The 2018 Mini compared to the 2012 and 2014 is a royal pain in the ass to work on. Just scan this forum on DIY'ers who have had issued attempting a memory upgrade. I can easily within a few minutes upgrade my memory and M2 storage card just by removing 1 screw.

My 2012 Mini had much easier access to the memory slots. How hard would it have been for Apple to design the motherboard so that the memory slots would have been on the bottom just like the 2012 Mini? They chose NOT for financial reasons. The same goes for the soldered SSD storage. Sure soldered SSD will be somewhat faster than an M2 storage card but is it worth it? The ThinkCentre boots Windows 10 within 7 secs. If Apple had used an M2 non-proprietary storage card that was user replaceable would the average 2018 Mac Mini user care if macOS booted in 6 sec or 10 secs? I bet most objective individuals would take the extra few seconds to boot macOS. I sure as hell would but Apple decided against that.

Here's the issue I have with Apple and their OS. The claims that macOS is just perfectly awesome and that Windows and Linux sucks. And yet I am more impressed with Linux and Windows because they have to work on billions of different configurations around the world and both operating systems do a hell of a job in stability. Apple just has to concentrate on their hardware and that's it. And the rub is, macOS which I have been using 2001 when it was OS X has had it's share of bugs, quirkiness and with some releases, performance issues. So yeah, maybe it's for the best that Apple doesn't code for anything other than it's own hardware. But if they could, I agree with you that they wouldn't because there's NO incentive to pay for a Mac when you can buy a similar configuration for less from another PC maker.

Apple put the DRAM slots inside the Mac mini for two reasons - 1) The frequency is much higher now with DDR4-2666MHz versus DDR3-1600MHz and the higher clock speed may interfere with certain electronic equipment in the same or nearby bands, and 2) to help cool the DRAM by placing it inside the chassis allowing the air drawn in to take some of the heat away with it. This is also why I think they put the metal cage around it, to shield the frequencies and wick away the heat. Replacing the DRAM is more involved than the 2010-2012 Mac mini, but its not impossible and, frankly, you are going to do it once, maybe twice, in the mini's lifetime, so I am not sure what the big deal is...if a person is capable and takes their time, they should be fine. If a person is not capable, they should be able to find someone to do it for them for a nominal cost.

If they had really done this for financial reasons, then you would be forced to BTO soldered DRAM at the time of purchase.

Could Apple's BTO prices be better for DRAM from the factory? Yes, they could, but they aren't. It is what it is. That said, I will take soldered storage any day over soldered DRAM, if given a choice.

As for the soldered storage, I personally would be happier if Apple had taken the proprietary slot standard they used in the 2016-2017 nTB MacBook Pro or 2017 iMac Pro and had made the storage unsoldered as they did with the iMac Pro, which also has the T2. If they licensed the spec to a couple of companies who could make authorized 3rd party upgrades, that would be great, but it is not a dealbreaker for me or a lot of other users.

The reality is that Apple is not going to put an m.2 slot in any of its Macs, and frankly, I don't blame them. Like it or not, good or bad, Apple is trying to provide a consistent user experience. It also needs to keep support costs in line to an extent. Having to support any old m.2 module that someone decides to stick in their Mac is going to be a tech support nightmare.

Did the consumer buy a SATA module by mistake, an AHCI PCIe m.2, an NVMe m.2, from which manufacturer...is the driver an Apple driver, or the manufacturer or does it need a third party driver, a la SoftRAID? What is the upside of this? To allow tinkerers, of which most people are not, to be able to upgrade their machines? Why? truly, how often does the average user upgrade those items in the lifetime of their computer? Once, maybe twice?

If you are trading components out any more frequently than every 9-12 months, I would posit that you are no longer in Apple's crosshairs as a customer. Even professionals who want a modular Mac Pro and truly use their Mac Pro day in and day out to make money are not trading out components any more often than every 6 months or so, and the vast majority of that would only be storage and/or DRAM. If you are a "Pro" who is doing it more often than that, you are a tinkerer, or a hardware tester, or a YouTube'er, or you just like building and tearing down, but you are not Apple's core customer and that's okay for you and for Apple.

Apple has iOS, macOS, tvOS and WatchOS to develop, add features, bug fix and add value to each by making them interoperate well together. Is there another company that has five distinct hardware lines, with 4 distinct operating systems to develop, support, et al. in the Linux world? Not that I can think of, not that are commercially viable, have mass market appeal, are the foundation of hundreds of millions of devices and are released on an annual cadence. Ditto Microsoft...they don't even have a mobile device OS, they gave up on the Smartphone market and instead simply poured everything into Windows to try and make it fit every device type from 2-In-1 to gaming PC to business desktop to laptop to all-in-one. Good for them.

Apple is never going to try and compete in the PC market or with other PC makers (Acer, Dell, HP, Lenovo, et al.) as that would be an incredibly idiotic thing to do...the margins are razor thin, OEMs are dependent on a third party to develop the operating system, their product lines are monolithic and not diverse in the least, they try to cater to every corner of the market from the cheapest of the cheap to Fortune 100 companies and workstation buyers because the competition is so cutthroat, they hang on to legacy tech forever for fear of upsetting customers and losing a sale because they dare remove the VGA port to make the laptop thinner or lighter...allowing customers to dictate design and technologies that gain traction in the marketplace not by innovation, but by cost and the lowest common denominator.

I will take my chances with Apple hardware and macOS....I could care less if it takes one screw or twenty to upgrade the computer, I just need it to work and I don't have time to waste jollying Windows or Linux along to get simple things working. If that's your jam, that's fine. To each his or her own.
 
You forgot, "is it b key, m key, or b & m key?".. The speed of NVMe M2's is great, but it's nowhere near as "simple" as it was with SATA drives.

Oh, crap, you’re right. I forgot that and the different lengths 22x80, 22x120, etc. oh, well...don’t have to worry about it with a Mac. I do have a home built PC in need of one though...AFTER I update the BIOS though...it’s a Z170 that still needs the Kaby Lake BIOS update before I can upgrade...that is if I can find a boxed, legit Kaby Lake i7 at a decent price, which is not happening right now...I think it’s Intel’s production woes. Every CPU seems to be up in $$$, but it only has two screws holding the side of the case on, so there’s the silver lining!:)
 
but it only has two screws holding the side of the case on, so there’s the silver lining
If it were a PowerMac, you'd just have a latch to lift. NO SCREWDRIVER REQUIRED!
[doublepost=1557160808][/doublepost]Obligatory gif.
59ab7089571553644.gif_e600.jpg.gif
 
If it were a PowerMac, you'd just have a latch to lift. NO SCREWDRIVER REQUIRED!
[doublepost=1557160808][/doublepost]Obligatory gif.
View attachment 835638

They worked pretty good, but you had to make sure you watched the IDE cables and HDD power cables when you closed the thing up. I think the Power Mac G5/Mac Pro latch and door is actually just about the closest to perfection that I have seen in all my years of using PCs and Macs. Although the modular Mac Pro is intriguing, I suspect that it won’t be quite as user friendly as the 2004-2012 G5/Mac Pro chassis. Sure wouldn’t mind seeing it in Space Grey either.
 
Just to show you how the competition is designing their PC's as user friendly. One screw in the back is all it takes to remove both panels and you have easy access to the entire PC. This is the same 2018 configuration Apple for $999 i3 quad core, 256GB SSD, 8 GB of ram. The ThinkCentre Tiny cost $398.

1) Side by side Mac Min vs ThinkCentre Tiny Pic #1 Left to right
2) ThinkCentre Tiny on top of Mac Mini
3) ThinkCentre top cover removed HDD and CPU fan access
4) ThinkCentre bottom cover M2 Storage Card and both memory slots
View attachment 835073 View attachment 835075 View attachment 835076 View attachment 835077

curious do those machines have thunderbolt ? and if so how many controllers ?
 
No they do not. Something like the Hades Canyon NUC does have a couple of tb ports - couldn't tell you how many controllers though.
thanks :)


that is the one thing on these small boxes I think is important coming up with a way to expand them :) one reason i was OK to replace one of our old pros with the Mini was the dual controllers for the thunderbolt ! knowing the GPU could be on one and anything else on the other was a nice tech relief :) even if real world does not matter as much it is nice that was included on the mini
and with form factors like these machines that really NO internal expansion can happen it has to be external so IMHO dual controllers are a must again IMHO :) hahahaahhaha
 
thanks :)


that is the one thing on these small boxes I think is important coming up with a way to expand them :) one reason i was OK to replace one of our old pros with the Mini was the dual controllers for the thunderbolt ! knowing the GPU could be on one and anything else on the other was a nice tech relief :) even if real world does not matter as much it is nice that was included on the mini
and with form factors like these machines that really NO internal expansion can happen it has to be external so IMHO dual controllers are a must again IMHO :) hahahaahhaha

It's nice to have expansion options on these - gives the Mini some extended life.
 
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There is no reason they couldn't make it. It's just not the market they are going after. I'm thrilled with my 2018 mini and wouldn't dream of using that ThinkCentre Tiny. The mini just works and I will never open it up. I got work to do.
 
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