Thanks Apple?

[Surf Donkey]

Yeah, of course we are just throwing things back and forth, who knows what the reality will be. You have to cut me some slack as I'm just massively frustrated that my Note 5 doesn't have Marshmallow yet. That's why I love my windows tablets, just like iOS they get updated the same day Microsoft releases the update.

Totally understand and don't buy Samsung again if you want updates

Remember, you are buying a Samsung Touchwiz phone, not an Android phone. The only true Android phones are the Nexus (ii?).

 

[spinedoc77]

Totally understand and don't buy Samsung again if you want updates

Touche! It's so difficult though. No one else, absolutely no one (I don't count the LG one) has a stylus equipped phone, and certainly not one that is as much of a monster as the Note 5. I do like the 6p, but it's missing some things that are crucial to me like OIS, digitizer/stylus, Samsung pay, etc. There is literally no other phone which can compete with the Note series IMO, at least for how I want to use my phone.

What makes it even harder to swallow is that there is no reason for it. You can flash a completely different ROM and it will even have digitizer/stylus support, etc. but that isn't possible because of the locked bootloader. This is veering away from the topic and definitely not Googles fault, just another gripe.

 

[gotluck]

so many choices but not the ones we want

 

[Surf Donkey]

@gotluck and @spinedoc77: The worst part is that you are a minority in the Android world I think but also ahead of the curve where I think many users are going. Samsung users (and really all android users) really fall into major groups... refresh every 6mo - year (like many here) so updates don't really matter to them..... and those who just don't care. Their phone can still take selfies, send messages and use snapchat.

But we are very much seeing a change since smartphones started selling. Innovation is stalling, sales are going down (there will be blips like Samsung being the first get lil wayne to pour champagne of a phone), but in general people are seeing less compelling reason to upgrade. Top this with higher prices, even the techies are less to see smartphones as an annual throwaway.

The gripes and demands for upgrades from this group will get louder and I do think will put pressure on the OEMs and carriers. Well, maybe. But @gotluck says it constantly and is right, whether majority demanded or not, it is true robbery these corporations stop supporting devices so early.

Next up, annual software upgrade support plans for a low annual price (**** I shouldn't give them ideas).

 

[spinedoc77]

@gotluck and @spinedoc77: The worst part is that you are a minority in the Android world I think but also ahead of the curve where I think many users are going. Samsung users (and really all android users) really fall into major groups... refresh every 6mo - year (like many here) so updates don't really matter to them..... and those who just don't care. Their phone can still take selfies, send messages and use snapchat.

But we are very much seeing a change since smartphones started selling. Innovation is stalling, sales are going down (there will be blips like Samsung being the first get lil wayne to pour champagne of a phone), but in general people are seeing less compelling reason to upgrade. Top this with higher prices, even the techies are less to see smartphones as an annual throwaway.

The gripes and demands for upgrades from this group will get louder and I do think will put pressure on the OEMs and carriers. Well, maybe. But @gotluck says it constantly and is right, whether majority demanded or not, it is true robbery these corporations stop supporting devices so early.

Next up, annual software upgrade support plans for a low annual price (**** I shouldn't give them ideas).

Fully agree. The gripes I have are not something the typical consumer cares one iota about. I fully understand I'm mainly just complaining with little hope of resolution. As for paying for upgrades, I would GLADLY do this if they were timely.

 

[hallux]

"GOOGLE doesn't control the update process for devices that they don't sell themselves." With all due respect, no sh$*, that's what the debate is about. They should control the process. The glaring hole in what you say is Microsoft Windows. They license the OS to any hardware maker that wants to utilize it, but the hardware maker doesn't have direct control over the updates. Certainly they communicate with Microsoft for drivers and special features, but when Microsoft releases a new Windows edition it works on ALL PC's, regardless of hardware, manufacturer, unique hardware or special features. At the end of the day Microsoft controls the update process. Of course Windows isn't open source, and I've addressed that in my previous post. If Apple decided to license their OS you can bet they would still control the update process, I HIGHLY doubt they would relinquish that and don't agree with your scenario. Certainly oem's have to test Windows on their hardware, and that may affect the initial hardware release, but it won't affect updates.

The bottom line is that the fragmentation is hurting Google. They cannot release new, money making features such as Now on Tap.

I guess I used the wrong word in that sentence. I should have said that Google CAN'T control the update process for devices they don't sell.

Windows is quite a different animal from Android, the hardware layer is configured at the time of install and is highly configurable based on plug-n-play technology that's built into it. Because storage space in a phone is at such a premium, there just isn't the ability to support that kind of hardware layer. Also, Android OS updates are built around the hardware so each device's update needs to be tailored for that device. It just is NOT possible to update Android like Microsoft updates Windows. Can you imagine people being told that they won't be able to use their phone while it installs an OS update and downloads new drivers, likely taking several hours and then how would that device connect to the 'net to GET the cellular/WiFi drivers to install (since the point of an "open" platform is that the manufacturers can choose the devices in the phone then build the OS for those devices). That mostly relates to Windows as a PC OS. Windows Mobile is still fairly locked down. How many Windows Mobile devices are there? I count maybe 10 Lumia devices on Microsoft's website, those are all controlled by Microsoft and there aren't many running Windows 10 besides those.

Again, the anatomy of an Android update includes "drivers" for the devices in the device that it is being installed on. At the very least the SoC drivers need to be in the initial update or the OS won't boot but, again, Android is not a plug-n-play OS like Windows is.

Trust me, I'm as frustrated about the update cycle as everyone else. My tablet that is JUST 2 years old is stuck on 5.1.1, it's a Samsung tablet. My next will be a Nexus/Google tablet, we'll see what I/O brings as far as new tablets from Google but I have my eye on the Pixel C.

 

[spinedoc77]

I guess I used the wrong word in that sentence. I should have said that Google CAN'T control the update process for devices they don't sell.

Windows is quite a different animal from Android, the hardware layer is configured at the time of install and is highly configurable based on plug-n-play technology that's built into it. Because storage space in a phone is at such a premium, there just isn't the ability to support that kind of hardware layer. Also, Android OS updates are built around the hardware so each device's update needs to be tailored for that device. It just is NOT possible to update Android like Microsoft updates Windows. Can you imagine people being told that they won't be able to use their phone while it installs an OS update and downloads new drivers, likely taking several hours and then how would that device connect to the 'net to GET the cellular/WiFi drivers to install (since the point of an "open" platform is that the manufacturers can choose the devices in the phone then build the OS for those devices). That mostly relates to Windows as a PC OS. Windows Mobile is still fairly locked down. How many Windows Mobile devices are there? I count maybe 10 Lumia devices on Microsoft's website, those are all controlled by Microsoft and there aren't many running Windows 10 besides those.

Again, the anatomy of an Android update includes "drivers" for the devices in the device that it is being installed on. At the very least the SoC drivers need to be in the initial update or the OS won't boot but, again, Android is not a plug-n-play OS like Windows is.

Trust me, I'm as frustrated about the update cycle as everyone else. My tablet that is JUST 2 years old is stuck on 5.1.1, it's a Samsung tablet. My next will be a Nexus/Google tablet, we'll see what I/O brings as far as new tablets from Google but I have my eye on the Pixel C.

Sure they can, that's what they are working on. I'm also unsure which windows update takes "several hours", unless it's a question of bandwidth, but that would apply to any OS. I don't have issues updating cellular/wifi drivers, etc.

It never helps to just stick your head in the sand and accept how things are, especially if you are frustrated. I'm happy that Google is in fact making moves to help these issues, I just hope these changes come true, and fairly soon.

 

[Lloydbm41]

Sure they can, that's what they are working on. I'm also unsure which windows update takes "several hours", unless it's a question of bandwidth, but that would apply to any OS. I don't have issues updating cellular/wifi drivers, etc.

It never helps to just stick your head in the sand and accept how things are, especially if you are frustrated. I'm happy that Google is in fact making moves to help these issues, I just hope these changes come true, and fairly soon.

Sorry, but Google can not, nor will they ever be able to, control what LG, Samsung, HTC, etc do with updates. You know why? Because Google implemented the AOSP rules from the onset to ensure companies had the incentive to use a " free" OS.

In order for Google to be able to tell companies that build the hardware what to do with regards to updating firmware, Google will have to pay those companies and have each one sign agreements to use Android without a skin. Now, pray tell me, what is the difference between what we have now with Nexus devices and what you propose? Answer=nothing.

 

[spinedoc77]

Sorry, but Google can not, nor will they ever be able to, control what LG, Samsung, HTC, etc do with updates. You know why? Because Google implemented the AOSP rules from the onset to ensure companies had the incentive to use a " free" OS.

In order for Google to be able to tell companies that build the hardware what to do with regards to updating firmware, Google will have to pay those companies and have each one sign agreements to use Android without a skin. Now, pray tell me, what is the difference between what we have now with Nexus devices and what you propose? Answer=nothing.

Of course they could control it, if somewhat indirectly through leverage. Google has been steadily taking more functionality out of their OS and putting it into their services layer, such as Gmail, Google Calendar, Maps, Chrome, Google Play, etc. This is the direction they are already headed for. They can't afford not to have their features incorporated, or delayed, features such as Google Now On Tap which is tied in with their advertising model. The free model was at a time when Google had no foothold in the mobile world and was afraid Apple would completely take over. AOSP rules slowly and steadily mean less and less as Google takes away more and more services. Will an oem want to make their own services such as Amazon did with their kindle? Maybe, or maybe they will make a new OS such as Tizen. But they risk losing all of those people invested in those services. Even 3rd party apps are tied into this by using Google's API and tying in Google services. Googles location API's are part of google play, which means they are closed source as is all the other stuff I mentioned. Most of these API's apply to Google services on iOS as well, locking in developers to Google and not Android. Even the name "Android" has to be licensed, that's why every device which uses google apps has to have that "powered by ANDROID" logo on their boot screen. Google has a TON of ammunition to win this war.

Of course there will always be the base OS which will remain open source, but hopefully Google can make this inconsequential. But even if this doesn't happen (I never said it would, I only opined it should) the fact remains that Google has a hell of a lot of leverage they could and should use to encourage faster OS updates.

The ultimate dream though would be totally OS agnostic hardware where you can install what you want, Ubuntu touch, Sailfish, Firefox OS, and I suppose AOSP Android.

 

[gotluck]

Sorry, but Google can not, nor will they ever be able to, control what LG, Samsung, HTC, etc do with updates. You know why? Because Google implemented the AOSP rules from the onset to ensure companies had the incentive to use a " free" OS.

In order for Google to be able to tell companies that build the hardware what to do with regards to updating firmware, Google will have to pay those companies and have each one sign agreements to use Android without a skin. Now, pray tell me, what is the difference between what we have now with Nexus devices and what you propose? Answer=nothing.

The difference would be fully premium hardware with extra bells and whistles, along with the nexus experience, that is my dream!

Nexus hardware has almost always left more to be desired, just like oem devices lacking good software support