Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

dyn

macrumors 68030
Aug 8, 2009
2,708
388
.nl
I get that for 90% of people, paying Apple to fix it makes sense and saves time. Most people are like that with their cars too.. and I see a LOT of not stupid people get ripped off by mechanics.. when I think of the thousands I've saved on my own car fixing things and not paying labour I can't honestly part with cash because Apple refuse to let me use skills I have to sort the problem. Sigh.
Then you don't get it because while you have saved physical money by doing things yourself, you have lost time because you had to do it yourself. For you it was about saving money, for others it is about saving time. Not to forget that not everybody enjoys doing these things. With computers there are many people who are actually buying these all-in-one-can't-fix-it-myself machines because they are sick and tired of doing it themselves (the well known phrase "been there, done that" applies here). For some it can even be seen as work instead of leisure (applies to just about any technician in IT).

The only thing that is really stupid is thinking that you are saving something. You are not because you are always paying some price. It's either money, time or something else.

Given long term convergence with the iPad maybe that's not so bad.
That's what Microsoft is doing and what Apple opposes.

I checked with Lenovo, they WILL sell parts to the tech enthusiast.
And some of the no-name brands will too but outside of those almost none of the notebook manufacturers will do so. Companies like Dell and HP insist on having it repaired via one of their certified technicians (which could be the local repair shop or yourself if you go through their certification process). The only thing one has been able to change in notebooks is disk and memory. In some occasions this has also been CPU and GPU (via MXM which has been hardly used). Notebooks simply have never been suited for anyone wanted to repair/replace components themselves unless they are willing to pay lots of money and go through the certification process.

I didn't want to have to go to Windows, but it's not the end of the world. It's come a long way from Vista in early 2009 when I first made the move to a white MacBook.. With a little bit of PowerShell I can clear all that touch crap!
And you are getting some Linux stuff in Windows 10 too. For diehard UNIX/Linux users I doubt that'll suffice; they are most likely to be better off with using Linux natively on the device (which Lenovo and Dell support).

Not sure if anyone on here (albeit in a DIFFERENT part of the forum from hereon out) will be interested in hearing updates on this experience but I thought I'd write my farewell to the MacBook Pro section.
That depends on what you are going to write about. If it is aimed at the old workflows vs the new workflows I think many would be interested as this gives them a good idea how something like Windows is going to work out.

Your saying this as its a positive? Apple purposely went to non-traditional screw types and purposely made it hard to open up.
Then I wonder what you call unscrewing a lightbulb, probably rocket science or something. let's be realistic here. Apple used normal screws that worked like any other screw known to man. The only thing that was different was the hole in the screwhead. That's all they changed and it was an issue for about a week or 2 because after that the appropriate screwdriver was available. In the past 5 years (!) we've seen many tool sets including this screwdriver/bit so this has hardly been an issue at all.

Not to mention that you are saying this is something only Apple would do. That is not true at all, any manufacturer has done this since we invented screws. And back then it was a complete disaster with so many different proprietary screws around. Screws aren't the only issue here. Most manufacturers do not provide any documentation on how to replace components nor do they create a notebook that is easy to service. It usually entails looking very carefully, prying stuff open and unscrewing a hundred or so screws. If you need more than an hour to uncover the CPU then the manufacturer did a good job in purposely making it hard to open up. In that regard, Apple is one of the manufacturers that actually make it extremely easy.

Having a laptop that is easy to upgrade is not a negative like you imply.
I think you misunderstood that post. There are positives AND negatives to both approaches (no upgradability vs full upgradability). The problem here is that only the positives are mentioned, not the negatives. The post is a good summary of the negatives with upgradable notebooks and something people really need to realise. It is simply a different way of saying "be careful what you wish for" because upgradability comes at a cost. Having a notebook that is easy to upgrade is not a positive as been implied here. It depends on what expectations and requirements you have.

Why should I spend 199 for a new battery and need to get the top case replaced as is the case with the MBP
Because you don't want to be the one bringing down a plane because your cheapo battery caused a fire or an explosion. Li-ion and lipo batteries are very dangerous, you want to have ones with high quality. The el cheapo batteries usually have very little safety features and may also use lower quality cells. These are far more prone to bursting into flames or exploding as we've seen in so many cases throughout the years now. Hence why the FAA and airlines have set regulations for these batteries, why many fire brigades are very vocal about them and why changing them is expensive and difficult with most devices. The only devices where this is really easy are RC vehicles (cars, helicopters, planes, boats, etc.) and electric bicycles (perhaps the vehicles for the disabled as well but I think they are still using lead acid batteries).

You can actually run bash scripts in Windows 10 now, as they include a bash shell.
Shell scripts (which is probably what you actually meant) require more than just a shell to run actually run. In most cases these scripts take use of specific tooling and workings found on UNIX/Linux systems. Even on those UNIX/Linux systems not all of these scripts are fully compatible (especially if they are bash scripts and not shell scripts). This is even worse on Windows because it doesn't all of what makes UNIX/Linux, UNIX/Linux.
 

daihard

macrumors 6502a
Feb 19, 2008
973
7
Seattle, WA
Then you don't get it because while you have saved physical money by doing things yourself, you have lost time because you had to do it yourself. For you it was about saving money, for others it is about saving time. Not to forget that not everybody enjoys doing these things. With computers there are many people who are actually buying these all-in-one-can't-fix-it-myself machines because they are sick and tired of doing it themselves (the well known phrase "been there, done that" applies here). For some it can even be seen as work instead of leisure (applies to just about any technician in IT).
You don't always save time by having a professional do the repair/upgrade job, though. Adding a memory module, for instance, would take an average person no more than 30 minutes, and you can do that at home, including buying the module online. It's similar with adding/swapping hard disks / SSDs. Take your MBP to an Apple Store for any service, and it will take just as much time, plus your travel time/cost.

I agree quality offered by good professionals can be worth the extra money, which IMO buys you peace of mind, not necessarily money.

And you can't even upgrade RAM or storage on the modern MBPs, by yourself or a professional.
 

0989383

Suspended
Original poster
May 11, 2013
469
272
Then you don't get it because while you have saved physical money by doing things yourself, you have lost time because you had to do it yourself. For you it was about saving money, for others it is about saving time. Not to forget that not everybody enjoys doing these things. With computers there are many people who are actually buying these all-in-one-can't-fix-it-myself machines because they are sick and tired of doing it themselves (the well known phrase "been there, done that" applies here). For some it can even be seen as work instead of leisure (applies to just about any technician in IT).

The only thing that is really stupid is thinking that you are saving something. You are not because you are always paying some price. It's either money, time or something else.


That's what Microsoft is doing and what Apple opposes.


And some of the no-name brands will too but outside of those almost none of the notebook manufacturers will do so. Companies like Dell and HP insist on having it repaired via one of their certified technicians (which could be the local repair shop or yourself if you go through their certification process). The only thing one has been able to change in notebooks is disk and memory. In some occasions this has also been CPU and GPU (via MXM which has been hardly used). Notebooks simply have never been suited for anyone wanted to repair/replace components themselves unless they are willing to pay lots of money and go through the certification process.


And you are getting some Linux stuff in Windows 10 too. For diehard UNIX/Linux users I doubt that'll suffice; they are most likely to be better off with using Linux natively on the device (which Lenovo and Dell support).


That depends on what you are going to write about. If it is aimed at the old workflows vs the new workflows I think many would be interested as this gives them a good idea how something like Windows is going to work out.


Then I wonder what you call unscrewing a lightbulb, probably rocket science or something. let's be realistic here. Apple used normal screws that worked like any other screw known to man. The only thing that was different was the hole in the screwhead. That's all they changed and it was an issue for about a week or 2 because after that the appropriate screwdriver was available. In the past 5 years (!) we've seen many tool sets including this screwdriver/bit so this has hardly been an issue at all.

Not to mention that you are saying this is something only Apple would do. That is not true at all, any manufacturer has done this since we invented screws. And back then it was a complete disaster with so many different proprietary screws around. Screws aren't the only issue here. Most manufacturers do not provide any documentation on how to replace components nor do they create a notebook that is easy to service. It usually entails looking very carefully, prying stuff open and unscrewing a hundred or so screws. If you need more than an hour to uncover the CPU then the manufacturer did a good job in purposely making it hard to open up. In that regard, Apple is one of the manufacturers that actually make it extremely easy.


I think you misunderstood that post. There are positives AND negatives to both approaches (no upgradability vs full upgradability). The problem here is that only the positives are mentioned, not the negatives. The post is a good summary of the negatives with upgradable notebooks and something people really need to realise. It is simply a different way of saying "be careful what you wish for" because upgradability comes at a cost. Having a notebook that is easy to upgrade is not a positive as been implied here. It depends on what expectations and requirements you have.


Because you don't want to be the one bringing down a plane because your cheapo battery caused a fire or an explosion. Li-ion and lipo batteries are very dangerous, you want to have ones with high quality. The el cheapo batteries usually have very little safety features and may also use lower quality cells. These are far more prone to bursting into flames or exploding as we've seen in so many cases throughout the years now. Hence why the FAA and airlines have set regulations for these batteries, why many fire brigades are very vocal about them and why changing them is expensive and difficult with most devices. The only devices where this is really easy are RC vehicles (cars, helicopters, planes, boats, etc.) and electric bicycles (perhaps the vehicles for the disabled as well but I think they are still using lead acid batteries).


Shell scripts (which is probably what you actually meant) require more than just a shell to run actually run. In most cases these scripts take use of specific tooling and workings found on UNIX/Linux systems. Even on those UNIX/Linux systems not all of these scripts are fully compatible (especially if they are bash scripts and not shell scripts). This is even worse on Windows because it doesn't all of what makes UNIX/Linux, UNIX/Linux.

Your entire post touches on some good points. Your theory about Opportunity Cost is completely right, everything takes time ... and energy. So what? Clearly, I'm saying in my case I would rather upgrade it myself and be allowed to.

You're covering up Apples PITA policies more than even a fanboy should. And also, since Apple don't let us buy genuine replacement batteries people are MORE LIKELY to risk cheap batteries on their flights etc...
[doublepost=1492279324][/doublepost]
You don't always save time by having a professional do the repair/upgrade job, though. Adding a memory module, for instance, would take an average person no more than 30 minutes, and you can do that at home, including buying the module online. It's similar with adding/swapping hard disks / SSDs. Take your MBP to an Apple Store for any service, and it will take just as much time, plus your travel time/cost.

I agree quality offered by good professionals can be worth the extra money, which IMO buys you peace of mind, not necessarily money.

And you can't even upgrade RAM or storage on the modern MBPs, by yourself or a professional.

Normally, if you know how to do something yourself be it DIY or car repair, you can always do a better job yourself because you care so much more about the result. Some of the people I've seen call themselves professionals give no concern whatsoever over the quality of their job especially at the labor cost the customer pays! The only reason for paying a professional in my opinion is when you don't have time or expertise to do it yourself IMO
 
  • Like
Reactions: daihard

daihard

macrumors 6502a
Feb 19, 2008
973
7
Seattle, WA
Normally, if you know how to do something yourself be it DIY or car repair, you can always do a better job yourself because you care so much more about the result. Some of the people I've seen call themselves professionals give no concern whatsoever over the quality of their job especially at the labor cost the customer pays! The only reason for paying a professional in my opinion is when you don't have time or expertise to do it yourself IMO
I personally agree. Knowing how to work on my computers (and my bikes to an extent), I typically don't rely on professionals unless it's necessary due mainly to my lack of expertise. My point is that making a self-serviceable product has a lot of merit, because people can then choose to work on it themselves or ask for professional help. The current Apple products offer no such options.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dk001 and 0989383

dyn

macrumors 68030
Aug 8, 2009
2,708
388
.nl
Your entire post touches on some good points. Your theory about Opportunity Cost is completely right, everything takes time ... and energy. So what? Clearly, I'm saying in my case I would rather upgrade it myself and be allowed to.
You are doing so in a way that is condescending towards those who make a different decision. So what if you pay someone else to do the job? It doesn't make you dump, stupid, etc. and nor do the companies that do the repairs for you rip you off (they have bills to pay too).

You're covering up Apples PITA policies more than even a fanboy should.
I'm not the one covering up things and going posting in an Apple forum about something that is very offtopic. The one being a fanboy is you because like I said all the things you've mentioned really are not different with the other brands. Notebooks aren't very upgradable and everything comes at a cost. The entire question here is if that particular cost matters to you or not. Apple really is no different than any of the other OEMs. Those other OEMs have similar PITA policies and you shouldn't be covering them up.

And also, since Apple don't let us buy genuine replacement batteries people are MORE LIKELY to risk cheap batteries on their flights etc...
The above statement is a good example of you being a fanboy because this is a good example of where other manufacturers are being utterly bureaucratic about it and only allowing these parts if the computer you bought is under a business service contract (buy a business notebook and you get such a contract included which you can extend in both level and length). Consumer notebooks are denied service or you have to ship them so they can fix it for you. Don't try to cover up the reality when that reality is so extremely easy to find on the internet and by talking to people. HP and Dell are very good examples of this where even the technicians complain because of the very bureaucratic approach to things (try calling Dell...if you don't get the name of the owner 100% correct they simply hang up).

The risk you speak of here applies to all because there will always be cheaper batteries from China. Those ones are quite dangerous and are now the reason for all the regulations.

Normally, if you know how to do something yourself be it DIY or car repair, you can always do a better job yourself because you care so much more about the result. Some of the people I've seen call themselves professionals give no concern whatsoever over the quality of their job especially at the labor cost the customer pays! The only reason for paying a professional in my opinion is when you don't have time or expertise to do it yourself IMO
That's about 99% of the users who think they know about computers right there. But yes, if you really know what you are doing, it can sometimes be nice to be able to fix things yourself. Especially if the fix is rather quick to do.

Anyone who is realistic about this knows that Apple is no different than any other OEM out there. They make great computers as does the rest. And yes, the rest do have the same limitations as Apple has. Such is the nature of a notebook and a business (you pay for it one way or the other). No computer manufacturer is better than the other when it comes to notebooks (except for differences in quality). Talk to sysadmins and the engineers from companies that service Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. and you get a very different picture than you are painting here.

Have you ever done repairing/system administration as a day to day job?
 

daihard

macrumors 6502a
Feb 19, 2008
973
7
Seattle, WA
You are doing so in a way that is condescending towards those who make a different decision. So what if you pay someone else to do the job? It doesn't make you dump, stupid, etc. and nor do the companies that do the repairs for you rip you off (they have bills to pay too).
I don't hear the same condescending tone from his post. As far as I can tell, what he's saying is that self-serviceable laptops would be nice to have as they allow you to do your own upgrades if you choose to. Apple doesn't offer that option with their laptops. I agree with him on that.
 

0989383

Suspended
Original poster
May 11, 2013
469
272
You are doing so in a way that is condescending towards those who make a different decision. So what if you pay someone else to do the job? It doesn't make you dump, stupid, etc. and nor do the companies that do the repairs for you rip you off (they have bills to pay too).


I'm not the one covering up things and going posting in an Apple forum about something that is very offtopic. The one being a fanboy is you because like I said all the things you've mentioned really are not different with the other brands. Notebooks aren't very upgradable and everything comes at a cost. The entire question here is if that particular cost matters to you or not. Apple really is no different than any of the other OEMs. Those other OEMs have similar PITA policies and you shouldn't be covering them up.


The above statement is a good example of you being a fanboy because this is a good example of where other manufacturers are being utterly bureaucratic about it and only allowing these parts if the computer you bought is under a business service contract (buy a business notebook and you get such a contract included which you can extend in both level and length). Consumer notebooks are denied service or you have to ship them so they can fix it for you. Don't try to cover up the reality when that reality is so extremely easy to find on the internet and by talking to people. HP and Dell are very good examples of this where even the technicians complain because of the very bureaucratic approach to things (try calling Dell...if you don't get the name of the owner 100% correct they simply hang up).

The risk you speak of here applies to all because there will always be cheaper batteries from China. Those ones are quite dangerous and are now the reason for all the regulations.


That's about 99% of the users who think they know about computers right there. But yes, if you really know what you are doing, it can sometimes be nice to be able to fix things yourself. Especially if the fix is rather quick to do.

Anyone who is realistic about this knows that Apple is no different than any other OEM out there. They make great computers as does the rest. And yes, the rest do have the same limitations as Apple has. Such is the nature of a notebook and a business (you pay for it one way or the other). No computer manufacturer is better than the other when it comes to notebooks (except for differences in quality). Talk to sysadmins and the engineers from companies that service Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. and you get a very different picture than you are painting here.

Have you ever done repairing/system administration as a day to day job?

Well look, my posts are about my own experience with Apple and I haven't incorrectly stated their policies or decisions and I'm not the only one who is annoyed by them having been in the situation.

What I'm saying here essentially is, my bad experience and why I'm moving on from the Mac. And also, what I'm moving on to and how I've discovered that Lenovo focus on user serviceability as much as possible at least, albeit much less than a custom built desktop of course.. and how their policy for me is superior. Again, not everyone. Me.

I had no idea about Dell and HP, but if their policy is the same as Apples in the way that has inconvenienced me I'm glad I've avoided them. Especially Dell as I did seriously consider a refurb Alienware 13 and XPS 13 at my £600 ish price budget!

My experience counts for something, and I hope that others on here don't face the same situation. Or at least if they must, they know what to expect and might be better prepared.

Lenovo could turn out to be complete crap, as might all PCs that aren't Macs. But right now the Lenovo ticks many boxes for me - ones that a Mac could not at four times the price sadly. That's what is influencing me personally. Others might not care. Though there seems to be about as many people seeing my points as well as others who see yours. I totally get where you're coming from, but see how this has applied to my situation.
[doublepost=1492292926][/doublepost]
I don't hear the same condescending tone from his post. As far as I can tell, what he's saying is that self-serviceable laptops would be nice to have as they allow you to do your own upgrades if you choose to. Apple doesn't offer that option with their laptops. I agree with him on that.

That's exactly what I'm saying. That was one of the things about my Mac that led me away, and one of the key things that has drawn me towards Lenovo in particular!
 
  • Like
Reactions: keeper and daihard

dyn

macrumors 68030
Aug 8, 2009
2,708
388
.nl
I don't hear the same condescending tone from his post.
He's implying that professionals are ripping off customers and that customers who let others do it for them are losing lots of money. They don't, they simply made a different choice than he did with different pros and cons. It's the same with the upgradability of notebooks: it's not a silver bullet as it is presented here. Notebooks have never ever been very upgradable and OEMs have never been very helpful to consumers when it comes to components. If you have a business notebook they might be and if you are a service center they usually are.

The reason why these business notebooks can be upgraded and serviced is due to businesses requiring that can last for a long time and can be quickly fixed. It's not because businesses can fix it themselves, they usually won't do that as it costs too much (sysadmins have more important things to do and for smaller business they have a business to run). That's why these come with those components AND "next business day" contracts.

That said, people really shouldn't underestimate the quality of current computers from either Dell, HP and Lenovo...as long as you stick to their business product lines (the consumer lines can have some iffy ones). If you are looking at a notebook for Linux I'd opt for Dell because they are very committed to that (and the Dell XPS are wonderful notebooks), for Windows the Microsoft Surface 2-in-1 machines are absolutely great and so are Lenovo and HP. And if you are looking for upgradability then get a desktop or even better, build it yourself (or have the shop build it, saves you some cuts).

Something to note about pricing: the price tag is only one part of the story. At work the hardware guy wants us to request Apple notebooks because they are cheaper than the Dells. The Dells he can't sell when we phase them out but the Apple ones he can...for quite some money actually. So much so that it makes the Apple ones about 500 euro cheaper than the Dell ones which really surprises me. Throwing away isn't an option as waste costs money (and for business it can be very costly).
 

Kcetech1

macrumors 6502
Nov 24, 2016
258
120
Alberta Canada
That said, people really shouldn't underestimate the quality of current computers from either Dell, HP and Lenovo...as long as you stick to their business product lines (the consumer lines can have some iffy ones). If you are looking at a notebook for Linux I'd opt for Dell because they are very committed to that (and the Dell XPS are wonderful notebooks), for Windows the Microsoft Surface 2-in-1 machines are absolutely great and so are Lenovo and HP. And if you are looking for upgradability then get a desktop or even better, build it yourself (or have the shop build it, saves you some cuts).

So very true. I found the workstation laptops and the higher end business models range from impressive to incredible. for the Thinkpads I do tend to lean heavily towards the X, T and P series as they are the less " consumer " more long life. Dells I have never had anything but a Precision series. and HP the Elitebook-W and now the Z-books. biggest fault I find is I really wish I could have that Power in a smaller package at times.
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,402
13,283
where hip is spoken
It'll be an odd experience going from the MBP Mid,2012 to a new ThinkPad.

Largely due to the fact I cannot justify the money for a new Mac atm. But having had the experience of Apple not allowing me to buy parts when something does break down, I don't think I'd be willing to risk it anymore.

Ordered a ThinkPad E470 with Kaby Lake i5, 940MX graphics, Intel SSD.. Windows 10 being the biggest challenge I'll need to face now from macOS. I hear.. with time.. it's not so bad.
Congrats! Hopefully it is equipped with a large SSD. One thing to get used to with Windows 10 is its ever-growing storage footprint. After a few rounds of updates, Win10 can easily double or triple in the amount of disk space it takes. Even when regular cleaning, it keeps creeping upward.

In general, I encourage you to use apps that were designed with Windows in mind (rather than cross-platform software). They tend to fit in better with the Windows flow of things. Also, try to change from an "OSX mindset" to a "Windows mindset" when approaching tasks. One of the things that I've found frustrating when switching between OSes is going against the flow.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 0989383

Kcetech1

macrumors 6502
Nov 24, 2016
258
120
Alberta Canada
Congrats! Hopefully it is equipped with a large SSD. One thing to get used to with Windows 10 is its ever-growing storage footprint. After a few rounds of updates, Win10 can easily double or triple in the amount of disk space it takes. Even when regular cleaning, it keeps creeping upward.

I havn't had much creep using the built in disk cleaner and going to advanced and telling it to kill installed and unneeded update cache.
 

bopajuice

Suspended
Mar 22, 2016
1,571
4,348
Dark side of the moon
The older I get the more I realize that there are seasons of technology where sometimes all these factors point to getting a particular device. I've gone from powerbooks to macbooks to thinkpads to macbook pros and different OSes and learned something new each time.

Thinkpads have their strengths for sure, as does Windows and Ubuntu. Remember that all this tech is meant to serve you and what you want to do, so I'm all for people that leverage strengths of different hardware and OSes.

Looking forward to hearing your experiences.

That's exactly my philosophy. I use multiple os's, PC, and Mac. I use each to suit my needs. No bias here.
 

Mirascael

macrumors member
Jun 21, 2008
44
41
I love Mac hardware and other than the whole non sale of genuine parts from Apple I wouldn't mind sinking serious money into a new one. I get that for 90% of people, paying Apple to fix it makes sense and saves time. Most people are like that with their cars too.. and I see a LOT of not stupid people get ripped off by mechanics.. when I think of the thousands I've saved on my own car fixing things and not paying labour I can't honestly part with cash because Apple refuse to let me use skills I have to sort the problem. Sigh.
About 2 years ago I went to a local Apple Store (Hamburg-Jungfernstieg, Germany) to ask for repairs of an iMac (2008ish) and a MacMini (2009ish).

The iMac suffered from a defective mainboard, which would have to be replaced, they claimed. The MacMini, which I had spoilt coffee over, needed a new mainboard as well. Repair costs would be to high to be justified economically (like $500+ each).

I then went to a local repair upstart, which found out, that the iMac suffered from a defective HD due to the well known design flaw of that iMac generation, which would destroy the HD and GPU over time due to excessive heating (you found tons of these machines on eBay with similar failures back then). Replacement of the HDD (I provided a new SSD cost me about $30 or so.

The MacMini they also would repair - again for about $30 - they probably just cleaned the mainboard and exchanged a fuse (I had them change the HDD with an SSD as well).

Either the assigned Apple technicians had been completely incompetent or customer repair requests were/are deliberately thwarted by Apple, at least for older machines.

I have remained an Apple fanboy, nevertheless I am completely aware that Apple is often unnecessarily pulling total crap on their customers in many ways.
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,402
13,283
where hip is spoken
I havn't had much creep using the built in disk cleaner and going to advanced and telling it to kill installed and unneeded update cache.
Glad to hear that your experiences have been better than mine. The creep on my hard drive-based systems are tolerable. The creep on my 14" Dell Inspiron w/32GB eMMC is intolerable. After a few rounds of updates and having only the OS installed, free space dropped to 14GB free, then down to 2 GB free. After the system stabilized and performed its internal cleanup, and running Disk Cleanup it was up to 6GB. It was only after manually cleaning the system by deleting the commonly recognized "safe" areas to delete, was I able to get the free space back up to 12GB. But every subsequent update eats away a little at that free space.

I would never recommend a Windows 10 system that had less than 128GB of storage.
 

dyn

macrumors 68030
Aug 8, 2009
2,708
388
.nl
biggest fault I find is I really wish I could have that Power in a smaller package at times.
Yep, I've had too many users complain about the weight of those machines ("it's too heavy!") with quite a few exchanging it for an ultrabook (some even for medical reasons because they had pain in their back, shoulders).

That's the problem: you either have a big, heavy but powerful machine or a small, light and not so powerful machine. Luckily the gap between the 2 is getting smaller (although the pace has slowed down currently). If only the 13" MBP had a quad core like its bigger brother...

@sracer: I'd never recommend 128GB SSDs for any system if you are not going to be using data from a network drive or some cloud storage. SSDs actually benefit from having quite some free space left.
 

0989383

Suspended
Original poster
May 11, 2013
469
272
Yep, I've had too many users complain about the weight of those machines ("it's too heavy!") with quite a few exchanging it for an ultrabook (some even for medical reasons because they had pain in their back, shoulders).

That's the problem: you either have a big, heavy but powerful machine or a small, light and not so powerful machine. Luckily the gap between the 2 is getting smaller (although the pace has slowed down currently). If only the 13" MBP had a quad core like its bigger brother...

@sracer: I'd never recommend 128GB SSDs for any system if you are not going to be using data from a network drive or some cloud storage. SSDs actually benefit from having quite some free space left.

Hey. Well since Apple are the best thing since sliced bread and their superior engineering prevails, maybe they'll find a way to fit a quad core into a 13" package. You know, like others already have. Except Apple will do it in a way that you can't criticise ;-)
 

dyn

macrumors 68030
Aug 8, 2009
2,708
388
.nl
Nah, there is no dGPU in it. On the other hand...who needs battery life, power outlets are everywhere, you just plug into the tree next to you! Right?
 

0989383

Suspended
Original poster
May 11, 2013
469
272
Nah, there is no dGPU in it. On the other hand...who needs battery life, power outlets are everywhere, you just plug into the tree next to you! Right?

It's all about that Opportunity Cost you mentioned earlier, right? ;-)
 

Kcetech1

macrumors 6502
Nov 24, 2016
258
120
Alberta Canada
Yep, I've had too many users complain about the weight of those machines ("it's too heavy!") with quite a few exchanging it for an ultrabook (some even for medical reasons because they had pain in their back, shoulders).

That's the problem: you either have a big, heavy but powerful machine or a small, light and not so powerful machine. Luckily the gap between the 2 is getting smaller (although the pace has slowed down currently). If only the 13" MBP had a quad core like its bigger brother...

@sracer: I'd never recommend 128GB SSDs for any system if you are not going to be using data from a network drive or some cloud storage. SSDs actually benefit from having quite some free space left.


I cant complain much, my P70 and Zbook 17 are still in my eyes very portable for what they do. I cant exactly lug around a pair of Mac Pro 5.1's with upgraded GPU's and monitors to client sites and on site jobs.

as a kicker I find my chunkier 12" thinkpad more portable than my Air, I don't need to pack my charger, any external drives, dongles, case or accessories. hence why that antique with a crappy screen is still my road warrior.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Queen6 and 0989383

dyn

macrumors 68030
Aug 8, 2009
2,708
388
.nl
Sadly there are hardly people on the forum here who realise you are always compromising on something. Power and portability still don't mix so you have to make a choice which of the two matters more to you. Another thing most people on MacRumors also don't get: there are actually other people out there and none of them are like you; they use the computer differently.

Hence why some people lug around a 15" MBP and others a flightcase with Mac Pro's.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mirascael

cynics

macrumors G4
Jan 8, 2012
11,959
2,156
If serviceability and expandability is of any concern which it seems it is, the ThinkPads really standout.

I put a higher resolution screen, more ram, 2 x SSD's 1 x mSATA, faster processor in my old T420 (more as a hobby then anything else).

t420.JPG t420-2.jpg

There is a lot both Apple and Lenovo have to offer over each other. Just need to pick what is important to you.
[doublepost=1492982586][/doublepost]
First of all, let me make it clear that I have no intention of criticising your decision. However, I think that some criticism of your post is warranted. You mention your desire to have a user-serviceable machine as being the major factor to getting the ThinkPad (if I understood correctly). And yet you don't mention the tradeoffs that come with this.

Let us look at the ThinkPad E470 more closely. This is a computer that matches the size and weight of the 15" MacBook Pro (in fact, its heavier and larger). Performance-wise, it is inferior to the 13" touch-bar model (the dedicated 940MX is mostly a match to the Iris 550, sometimes winning sometimes losing). It uses a low-quality display panel, offers no high-speed connectivity, has very limited video output capabilities, poor WiFi performance compared to Apple laptops, and slow SSDs for nowadays standards. Even though the laptop might be user-serviceable, it does not offer you much opportunity for upgrades due to lack of internal slots. The battery life is tested at under 6 hours by external reviewers.

What do we have here then? A budget-oriented laptop that uses lower-quality components. Despite relatively large size and weight and low-power CPU/GPU, its battery life is on the lower end of the spectrum. It does not offer any high-speed connectivity or other features often needed by professionals. Its not a bad laptop for the money, but comparing it to the MBP is something that I find very awkward. Technology-wise, these laptops are in two very different leagues. The MBP uses cutting-edge technological processes, is built to extremely high tolerances and has a much higher component density. The Lenovo laptop instead is fairly boring piece, from the technological perspective. It might use the most recent CPU revision, but it is built like a standard laptop of 200*, with no interesting or noteworthy technical features.

And here were come to the main point that you don't mention in your post. The primary reason why ThinkPad is easy to service is because it sacrifices everything else. With a dense laptop like the MBP, you need special tools and knowledge to perform any non-trivial service task on the computer. This is also why your car example does not work — people are going to the dealers not because they are unwilling to save money by doing service themselves, but because modern fuel-injected, automatic transmission cars simply can't be properly serviced without special equipment that not everyone has in their garage. For this inconvenience, you get better full mileage and reduced emissions.

In the end, everyone should pick the tools they are most comfortable with. If user-serviceability, its your choice. But don't pretend that this comes for free. There is always a tradeoff. I do not believe that its possible to make a precision instrument that is user-serviceable. And this has nothing to do with "Apple's model" or whatnot, simply with the fact that working within high tolerances requires higher technology than working with tech from yesterday.


You hit the nail on the head with "budget oriented laptop".

If you pick a Lenovo model with 7th gen i7 or Mobile Xeon, 32-64gb RAM, 8 gb Quaddro GPU, NVMe PCIe SSD, touch screen or 4k screen options, etc etc the price starts to reflect MacBook prices. But the differences in performances also start to shift.

MacBook definitely has a lot going for it no doubt. Its design is compact and light, speakers are amazingly good, it looks really good, I personally love MacOS, even at lower resolutions the screen looks better, touchpad (and palm rejection) are best in class, etc. Apple has a "the devils in the details" approach and I really appreciate it. BUT I feel the ThinkPads are equally good in its on ways.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 0989383 and ZapNZs

0989383

Suspended
Original poster
May 11, 2013
469
272
Well, after Lenovo having me believe it'd take 5+ weeks to be built and shipped, UPS provided a tracking number that states my ThinkPad should get here tomorrow!

Really looking forward to it. 13 days from order to arrival that'll mean. Not too bad for a custom built order from China!

Lenovos ordering process is terribly fragmented, with phone advisors not knowing anything from the factory or having any way to estimate accurate delivery dates etc. If I could avoid it, I would in the future.

Let's hope the product lives up to expectations. I looked and there's no other option other than a bland HP with a terrible screen with a similar i5/i7. Dell didn't offer anything that physically fitted the bill either, just typical regular HD 15" screens with poor battery performance etc. Not even considering SSD or Discrete Graphics.

This ThinkPad was the onLy option that didn't seriously disappoint in one area, though I know it's not going to be as premium as a Mac or expensive Lenovo.

The path it's taking to get here to the UK is interesting. I noticed a few others on here who had the same delivery route for their Macs ..
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0186.PNG
    IMG_0186.PNG
    228.3 KB · Views: 131

cynics

macrumors G4
Jan 8, 2012
11,959
2,156
Well, after Lenovo having me believe it'd take 5+ weeks to be built and shipped, UPS provided a tracking number that states my ThinkPad should get here tomorrow!

Really looking forward to it. 13 days from order to arrival that'll mean. Not too bad for a custom built order from China!

Lenovos ordering process is terribly fragmented, with phone advisors not knowing anything from the factory or having any way to estimate accurate delivery dates etc. If I could avoid it, I would in the future.

Let's hope the product lives up to expectations. I looked and there's no other option other than a bland HP with a terrible screen with a similar i5/i7. Dell didn't offer anything that physically fitted the bill either, just typical regular HD 15" screens with poor battery performance etc. Not even considering SSD or Discrete Graphics.

This ThinkPad was the onLy option that didn't seriously disappoint in one area, though I know it's not going to be as premium as a Mac or expensive Lenovo.

The path it's taking to get here to the UK is interesting. I noticed a few others on here who had the same delivery route for their Macs ..


Going to be using Windows or Linux?
 

0989383

Suspended
Original poster
May 11, 2013
469
272
Going to be using Windows or Linux?

Windows so far. To be honest, going quite well.

There's one thing I hate though. Privacy, and Microsofts lack-of-concept of it.

I successfully removed Cortana.. but it made the start menu freeze.

Good ole Windows. Still though, enjoying gaming etc that I gave up back when I got a MacBook many years ago.. it's good.

This is territory I've never been in before, good-spec Windows machine. I've only ever had cheap and crappy Windows laptops and mid range Apple laptops - but to be fair, Windows 10 is a joy on good hardware!
 
  • Like
Reactions: breggie
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.