The Car Thread ... !

[D.T.]

5000 rpm: Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

5k-8k: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!



I’m running an Amuse titanium, 70mm dual on my S2K and it’s *nuts* between 5K and 8K, really exotic sounding mix of throaty, raspy (it’s a beautiful exhaust, only 15lbs, but it’s got a bit of resonance, not fun with the top up - if I daily drove the S, I’d swap it back to stock)

 

[quagmire]

5k-8k: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!



I’m running an Amuse titanium, 70mm dual on my S2K and it’s *nuts* between 5K and 8K, really exotic sounding mix of throaty, raspy (it’s a beautiful exhaust, only 15lbs, but it’s got a bit of resonance, not fun with the top up - if I daily drove the S, I’d swap it back to stock)

And that is my issue with Honda's. No power below 5000 RPM.

I have driven Civic's, Accords, TL's, etc. All gutless below 5000 RPM. My aunt has a 2008 TL with the 280 HP V6. It felt like an 180 HP 4 banger until reaching 5000 RPM then it felt like a 280 HP V6.

 

[D.T.]

And that is my issue with Honda's. No power below 5000 RPM.

I have driven Civic's, Accords, TL's, etc. All gutless below 5000 RPM. My aunt has a 2008 TL with the 280 HP V6. It felt like an 180 HP 4 banger until reaching 5000 RPM then it felt like a 280 HP V6.

It’s not an issue, it’s just a different driving model. Small displacement motors require RPM to generate power, simple as that, doesn’t matter the manufacturer.

Heck, the V8 (S65) in the E9x platform M3 is really lazy under 4K.

It can be a really fun, intense, ingaging driving experience, especially with a manual and with nice short gears, since they tend to have lots of rev room over 5K.

When I’ve run track events in a rev happy car (NSX, S2K, etc), it never sees any time under 4K with the exception of pulling out of the pit/paddock

I’ve also owned cars with lots of bottom end torque, also lots of fun in a totally different way.

 

[AustinIllini]

5k-8k: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!



I’m running an Amuse titanium, 70mm dual on my S2K and it’s *nuts* between 5K and 8K, really exotic sounding mix of throaty, raspy (it’s a beautiful exhaust, only 15lbs, but it’s got a bit of resonance, not fun with the top up - if I daily drove the S, I’d swap it back to stock)

Pictures or it didn't happen

 

[quagmire]

It’s not an issue, it’s just a different driving model. Small displacement motors require RPM to generate power, simple as that, doesn’t matter the manufacturer.

Heck, the V8 (S65) in the E9x platform M3 is really lazy under 4K.

It can be a really fun, intense, ingaging driving experience, especially with a manual and with nice short gears, since they tend to have lots of rev room over 5K.

I know small displacement engines are gutless. But a 3.5 liter V6? That's inexcusable. But it's a matter of tuning as you say. Take the S2000's engine and the E92's V8. You sacrifice low end power to get it to spin at those 8000-9000 RPM.

It's fine for cars meant to be on the track like the S2000 and M3. But for a road car that will never see the track like an Acura TL? It needs low end power than high end power.

 

[2298754]

Agreed. In 2008 Audi put a 2.0T in its A4 and reviewers didn't like the lack of V6 compared to its competitors. The BMW 3, Lexus IS had V6s. Yet the smarter reviewers realized that the turbo charger would be the end of the bigger engines.

What's more interesting is that when the B8 Audi A4 came out, Audi had both the 2.0T and 3.2 V6, but then they dumped the 3.2 V6 and left the S4 at the top end with its supercharged 6 cylinder.

I don't understand the hate of these new turbo 4 bangers though. The N20 in the 328i is phenomenal. More power and more economical than the I6 it replaced. The 2.0T in the A4 is an award winning engine year after year.

On the other hand, on the base Lexus IS250, Lexus left their old 2.5 V6 that is less powerful and much less economical than the German turbo-4s. It's funny because it looks like Lexus will be putting the NX's new 2.0T into the IS very soon. That will be awesome!

(However, if it were my money, I'm buying the forced induction 6-cylinder models. 335i or S4. I like power )

 

[D.T.]

Pictures or it didn't happen

Ha!

Here’s a pic of the exhaust (actual photo of mine just before the install):

According my simple weight check: OEM = ~55lbs, Amuse = ~15lbs

Not much to see post installation, but here’s a pic from the rear of the car:

I know small displacement engines are gutless. But a 3.5 liter V6? That's inexcusable. But it's a matter of tuning as you say. Take the S2000's engine and the E92's V8. You sacrifice low end power to get it to spin at those 8000-9000 RPM.

It's fine for cars meant to be on the track like the S2000 and M3. But for a road car that will never see the track like an Acura TL? It needs low end power than high end power.

Oh, I agree that bottom end isn’t an unwanted characteristic!

Which is why there’s a ton of technology involved in generating more balanced engine power (cam phasing, various VVT solutions, etc.) across a wide range of use, while maintaining reasonable MPG, WHILE maintaining smaller displacement (and physical size, lower weight, more flexible packaging).

It’s a reason why BMW went back to the TT I6, loads of on-demand bottom end, combined with perks of smaller CI.

 

[2298754]

I know small displacement engines are gutless. But a 3.5 liter V6? That's inexcusable. But it's a matter of tuning as you say. Take the S2000's engine and the E92's V8. You sacrifice low end power to get it to spin at those 8000-9000 RPM.

I drove the new DI "EarthDreams" 3.5 V6 in the current Accord and it's finally not gutless at low RPMs. However, I still consider the Toyota/Lexus 3.5 V6 the better engine, even though it's been out for a long time.

Toyota and Honda need to get their **** together and give us forced induction 6 cylinder engines. Their 3.5 V6s are no competition for the likes of the Audi 3.0T, BMW N55, and the new Mercedes 3.0TT (in the upcoming C400)

 

[Todd H]

I'm an outdoors kind of guy so I picked up a used Jeep TJ and take it rock crawling pretty regularly. Nothing like spending the day crawling up a mountain and then speeding the evening sitting around a bonfire with friends enjoying some cold adult beverages.

 

[12vElectronics]

^ Looks great Todd. I want a new Jeep so freakin bad.

 

[AustinIllini]

There is no more dedicated car marque fan than Jeep fans. It's not in me, but some of them do make me want them.

 

[D.T.]

I'm an outdoors kind of guy so I picked up a used Jeep TJ and take it rock crawling pretty regularly. Nothing like spending the day crawling up a mountain and then speeding the evening sitting around a bonfire with friends enjoying some cold adult beverages.

Image

Nice man.

We’ve talked about swapping our T4R for a Jeep, it would do nice duty for family/tow and double up as our topless ride. It’s just the 4Runner continues to be pretty awesome, so we haven’t been in a rush to swap it.

 

[cdavis11]

I've been wanting to ask a Volt owner, for quite some time now, what is your electric bill like before having the car and after getting it?

I live in Nebraska, where power is very cheap. There's a summer/winter split - in summer we pay .0995 per Kwh, in winter it's a bit less at .0730 per Kwh.

All told, my electric bill goes up about $25 a month in summer and somewhat less in winter.

With my commute being under the range (about 35 miles in winter, 50 in summer) I can charge up at home every night on normal household circuits.

The engine does run when temps are under 15 degrees...which happens in Nebraska during the depth of winter a few days a year. In the last year it's meant about one tank of gas, filled in January/February. That's been it - no gas otherwise.

 

[S.B.G]

I live in Nebraska, where power is very cheap. There's a summer/winter split - in summer we pay .0995 per Kwh, in winter it's a bit less at .0730 per Kwh.

All told, my electric bill goes up about $25 a month in summer and somewhat less in winter.

With my commute being under the range (about 35 miles in winter, 50 in summer) I can charge up at home every night on normal household circuits.

The engine does run when temps are under 15 degrees...which happens in Nebraska during the depth of winter a few days a year. In the last year it's meant about one tank of gas, filled in January/February. That's been it - no gas otherwise.

So that $25 per month bump is due to charging the car compared to before you had it?

 

[puma1552]

That's simply not true. The ATS is a 3 series fighter. No 3 series has a V8. Cadillac's target audience often chooses a 2.0T Audi or a BMW 328i instead, both 4 bangers. The days of the Cadillac V8 land barges are long gone. Good riddance.

I probably should have said "the demographic" as opposed to "the target demographic" because try as they might, Cadillac is still having a hard time attracting a younger crowd.

I contend the twin turbo V6 is as good of a driver's engine than nearly any V8. The car around the engine has a lot more to do with the drivability of the car than just the number of cylinders it has.

It might drive fine, but it will never sound nor feel like a proper V8, nor will it ever be as simple. Not to mention if you need a power adder just to get acceptable performance, that's kind of sad - isn't it sad that VW needs to put a little turbo on everything just to get 170 hp? Can't get that out of a 4 banger on its own? Good engineering is simple engineering, adding complexity of turbos or superchargers goes against that idea. Plus who likes turbo lag? At least with a supercharger the power is instant just like a naturally aspirated engine; a turbo would be my dead last choice. I'd take N/A for instant power and simplicity and long-term cost (ask anyone who's had to shell out to replace turbos on a late model car…$$$), followed by a supercharger for instantaneous power, followed by a turbo. Manufacturers are using them because they are cheaper than superchargers. Turbo lag has gotten better over years, but it's still present.

I don't understand the hate of these new turbo 4 bangers though. The N20 in the 328i is phenomenal.

The N20 hate comes from people expecting $50k cars to sound better than Corollas. Problem with the N20 is that yeah, it might be a good engine, great gas mileage, etc., but as a former BMW I6 owner I can tell you the N20 isn't *nearly* as silky smooth or refined as the I6 cars were…that's where the hate comes from. There's more to it than just numbers, those I6 engines were smooth as silk.

 

[macquariumguy]

It’s not an issue, it’s just a different driving model. Small displacement motors require RPM to generate power, simple as that, doesn’t matter the manufacturer.

That's why I put the supercharger on my NSX. It moved the beginning of the fun zone down a couple thousand RPM.

 

[D.T.]

That's why I put the supercharger on my NSX. It moved the beginning of the fun zone down a couple thousand RPM.

Very cool, any photos? Assuming that’s a CompTech or SOS supercharger[?]

 

[AustinIllini]

I drove the new DI "EarthDreams" 3.5 V6 in the current Accord and it's finally not gutless at low RPMs. However, I still consider the Toyota/Lexus 3.5 V6 the better engine, even though it's been out for a long time.

Toyota and Honda need to get their **** together and give us forced induction 6 cylinder engines. Their 3.5 V6s are no competition for the likes of the Audi 3.0T, BMW N55, and the new Mercedes 3.0TT (in the upcoming C400)

The VTEC Turbos are a thing, and the Civic Type R has one in Europe. The one thing about Acura and Lexus with the NA engines is they are quite quiet. My A4 2.0T had a deep growl no matter the speed. My TSX, on the other hand, is quiet at most speeds. Not convinced that is what Honda/Acura is going for, but if it is, they have a point.

 

[macquariumguy]

Very cool, any photos? Assuming that’s a CompTech or SOS supercharger[?]

CT

 

[cdavis11]

So that $25 per month bump is due to charging the car compared to before you had it?

That is correct. $25 summer, roughly $17 winter at the reduced winter rates.

 

[LordQ]

I can't wait to see which Aston Martin Daniel Craig will be driving on Bond 24!

 

[AustinIllini]

I can't wait to see which Aston Martin Daniel Craig will be driving on Bond 24!

It's too bad they are just so unrealistic to own. They may be my favorite cars.

 

[LordQ]

It's too bad they are just so unrealistic to own. They may be my favorite cars.

Image

They are the most beautiful cars ever!

 

[D.T.]

It's too bad they are just so unrealistic to own. They may be my favorite cars.

Image

They are the most beautiful cars ever!

Yeah, a friend owns an AM DBS V12, really beautiful - he has some insane aftermarket exhaust so it +screams+ at WOT.

If you ever get a change to root around in one, take note of the finishing details, they’re just fantastic, everything from the switchgear to the carpet.

 

[2298754]

The N20 hate comes from people expecting $50k cars to sound better than Corollas. Problem with the N20 is that yeah, it might be a good engine, great gas mileage, etc., but as a former BMW I6 owner I can tell you the N20 isn't *nearly* as silky smooth or refined as the I6 cars were…that's where the hate comes from. There's more to it than just numbers, those I6 engines were smooth as silk.

You bring up a valid point. It doesn't sound like the N52, nor was it as smooth. I've had E90 328i loaners many times and always thought it was a fantastic engine, but I've also had the F30 328i with the N20 on numerous occasions.

The "rougher" nature of the N20 complements the 3 series perfectly, especially the power delivery. It fits into the "sporty" image of 3 series. And judging by the amount of N20 F30s I see on a daily basis in Boston, it seems no one cares about the smoothness of the old engine. The N20 works better in the real world. More powerful and significantly more economical (the most important thing to people these days)


Now the N20 in the F10 5 series though... that's another argument that I won't get into now...

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The VTEC Turbos are a thing, and the Civic Type R has one in Europe.

Yup, I've read about them at length. They'll never come to the US

The one thing about Acura and Lexus with the NA engines is they are quite quiet.

They're quiet and smooth, yes... but the N55 and Audi 3.0T are just as smooth and quiet, even though they are forced induction. Not to mention, significantly more powerful and more economical.

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They are the most beautiful cars ever!

Beautiful... yes. But horribly outdated.

How many years are they going to sell the same cars? They need a revamp soon. There's no reason to buy one anymore, when I can get a Jag F-Type/Porsche 911, etc that provides similar performance and comes with a prestigious nameplate also.