Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

EntropyQ3

macrumors 6502a
Mar 20, 2009
718
824
Here's a crazy little thought; you're clearly not the target customer.
T
Unfortunately, Apple doesn’t reveal sales statistics for their MacOS products. And even if they did, it would be impossible to compare those sales to other hypothetical products. But it doesn’t seem like Apple really make any desktop computers these days that compete very effectively with their own laptops.

Using a Macbook with a decent external screen for those instances where a large screen, or dual screens are beneficial seems like one hell of a lot more versatile setup for just about anyone since it doesn’t involve any compromise in either connectivity or performance.

I think not fitting the target demographic is probably going to be the case for an awful lot of people. And personally I doubt the 24” iMac will sell much beyond early adopters who fall in love with the design. But we’ll never truly know, since we will never see sales data. Arguing about it has little hope of leading anywhere.

IMO, the potentially more fruitful discussion would be ”what should Apple do to make their iMacs more attractive?”
At least for those of us who would like to belong to the target demographic.
 
Last edited:

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,494
19,631
We are in agreement about the M1 “good enough” . What you did not agree with was that I though the M1 performance was chosen to fit a certain type of users (students, office, point of sale, web based workflow) and not a certain device.

Oh, we agree on both points. M1 is great for that type of customer, there is no question.


Design for performance or heat is different. Would you design an M1 for office work/student with 4+8 cores? No it would be a waste becuase office work does not utilize 8 performance cores. Single tread performance is however dominating in office work but the M1 is more than good enough in that department.

It's not really the question of multiple cores, I agree that four cores is a sweet spot for this particular usage, especially at the performance Apple delivers. It's just that a desktop computer could offer more. One would for example expect higher single-threaded performance, but M1 in the iMac is stuck at the same 3.2 ghz ceiling as in any MacBook Air. Or the GPU. The M1 GPU performance is absolutely great for a 13" ultrabook, but it's a bit lackluster for a 24" desktop.

What I am trying to say is that Apple could further differentiate their chip lineup to take better advantage of the desktop platform and offer more value for this form factor. Personally, I would have preferred a M1 version with quad memory channels and a 16-core GPU (while retaining the same 4+4 CPU configuration). They decided to go for economy of scale instead. It's a great move from the business perspective, but this leaves the M1 iMac just a tiny bit underwhelming. But I certainly understand their decision.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,981
8,394
Yeah, all your points are nice and logical, but flow from a fallacious contention.

No, they flow from my perfectly reasonable contention that the M1 was primarily designed for fanless tablets and ultraportables, supported a string of M1 design choices (LPDDR RAM on the package, 4 low-power cores, limited external displays). If you disagree with that you're free to state your own opinion and support it with evidence - but that doesn't entitle you to start throwing around terms like "fallacious" or "specious" - those are not synonyms for "I Disagree".

Nobody here is claiming to have an insider scoop on Apple's M1 design deliberations. We're all speculating.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,981
8,394
Design for performance or heat is different. Would you design an M1 for office work/student with 4+8 cores? No it would be a waste becuase office work does not utilize 8 performance cores. Single tread performance is however dominating in office work but the M1 is more than good enough in that department.

Actually, heat/power consumption (same things, really) is one of the major design constraints on performance for any CPU/GPU, whether it is intended for a phone or a rackmount server. More cores - or more of any other circuitry - generate more heat, faster switching uses more heat (If I remember my electronics correctly, all other things being equal, heat goes up with the square of the clock speed...). Having the LPDDR RAM mounted on-package to keep the leads as short as possible is partly about power consumption. Even if Apple produce a Xeon-killer for the next Mac Pro, there will likely be some trade-off of features vs. power consumption (look at all the expense and effort that went into the Mac Pro cooling system). Dumping the over-complicated Intel architecture makes those power targets a lot more achievable - but I suspect that any future AS chip will feature some trade-off between performance and the power constraints of the form factor.

As for 8 core "office work/student" machines...

If what you really want is a machine for word processing, email and spreadsheets, a $500-or-less PC or ChromeBook (or a used 2012 Mac) will do the job with power to spare. But it is 2021 - office workers are running video conferencing software with virtual background filters, home users are editing videos for their youtube channels and using AI/ML algorithms to touch up their holiday snaps, students are mixing music for their band... and the web page you order your office supplies from now features real-time 3D animation (along with enough just-in-time-compiled Javascript to run an Apollo program) unless you jump through hoops to block it.

The only reasons not to put 8+4 cores in a general-use machine are (a) cost and (b) form factor (i.e. size and thermal/power limits)... and if you ignore (b) then economies-of-scale could mean that it was cheaper to have a single one-size-fits-all processor.

But for many other people, myself included, who live in pretty much a wireless and cloud-based world for work and leisure, there are few instances where we need lots of additional I/O. And when we do, the versatility of USB-C/Thunderbolt comes into play.

Often, the problem is not the machines that Apple make, but the machines that Apple don't make. There's no question that on plenty of peoples' 24" iMacs, even those two solitary TB3 ports will do nothing but gather dust. OTOH, some of us have a metric shedload of USB 3 or even USB 2 devices, and third party external DisplayPort or HDMI displays for which USB-C just means a more expensive cable that uses up a valuable data I/O ports on an unrelated function. Apple don't make a machine for us (although, the Intel 5k iMac and Mini aren't too bad and didn't lose ports c.f. their TB2 predecessors).

(...and yes, there are dirt-cheap USB 2/3hubs but plenty of USB-3 & 2 - such as audio interfaces - are best plugged into top-level ports rather than contending with other devices for bandwidth and latency).

This is all a bit moot with the $1500, 4-port 24" iMac, though, - which most likely maxes out the i/o capabilities of the M1 - so at the moment, the reason Apple don't make an Apple Silicon desktop with more ports could be, simply, that they haven't released the 5k iMac and high-end Mini replacements yet. It will be disappointing if the 5k replacement doesn't have at least 2xTB3 (with dedicated controllers) + 4 x USB-C (flap, oink on the DisplayPort). It's a desktop, so I can live with a few USB-C-to-A dongles (unlike a laptop) - and if you do get USB4 hubs to unlock the total I/O bandwidth it's not too shabby.

What is weird is the $1300 2-port iMac (...which comes to $1379 if you add the Ethernet and Touch ID options - both available as options on the base model, while based on Air prices, Apple seem to value the 8th GPU core at $49...) - I just can't get my head around why it is worth Apple's while to make two physically different versions of the iMac (which will create extra logistical costs) to justify a $70 price difference... The options prove that both models can support ethernet and TouchID with the right peripherals so they're clearly identical but for the missing ports and 7-core chip. If you don't need the extra USB-3 ports - they won't hurt. If you don't want USB ports because security - hello, 2 x TB3 with all the risks of USB plus any extra risks of Thunderbolt...)

Either they cynically decided that the prices had to be $1299 and $1499 and the missing ports are purely to stop you upgrading the $1299 model to the same spec as the $1499 one - or, maybe, the 7-core-GPU version of the M1 also has reduced I/O...?

The other slightly odd thing is why the Ethernet (i.e. alternative power brick) isn't an optional extra across the board? If there's one thing that people either need or don't want to pay for, it's Ethernet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jorbanead

4sallypat

macrumors 601
Sep 16, 2016
4,031
3,781
So Calif
.......Either they cynically decided that the prices had to be $1299 and $1499 and the missing ports are purely to stop you upgrading the $1299 model to the same spec as the $1499 one - or, maybe, the 7-core-GPU version of the M1 also has reduced I/O...?

The other slightly odd thing is why the Ethernet (i.e. alternative power brick) isn't an optional extra across the board? If there's one thing that people either need or don't want to pay for, it's Ethernet.
I ordered a base M1 iMac w/ optional Ethernet and full sized keyboard which is a must as I insist on full gigabit speeds instead of the spotty/collision prone WiFi which I turn off and my fat fingers can't stay on the little keyboard they provide standard....

Also don't need the 2 extra ports or GPU core as my base M1 Mini does all the "heavy lifting".

I plan to use a USB-C dongle for a second HDMI display....
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.