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Didn't know this. But I'm confused now, it seems like VT-x was supported back in 2005 even.

The 5000 series only had VT-x (ring -1). It was a big improvement.

The current E5-v2 Xeons also have VT-d (I/O virtualization) and VT-x(EPT) (memory management virtualization). Each of these is also a big improvement.


I asked for examples of apps.

Prime95 is AVX-optimized. Many libraries (like the Intel math libraries) are AVX-optimized - things like FFTs are using them already. Compilers can automatically use AVX for simple things like unrolling loops - so if you have the source code a simple compiler switch can turn it on.

AVX arrived with SandyBridge - it's here now. Haswell just adds integer support.
 
Not to mention anyone attempting to manufacture a GPU upgrade for the new Mac Pro has to run extensive tests to make sure that the cooling inside the cylinder will be enough since the card cannot have a fan, which wasn't a problem before.
nVidias Maxwell-generation of GPU's brings a significant reduction in energy consumption. AMD will counter with their next (or one-but-next) generation, so future graphic cards will produce way less heat. PCB fixation and position of components to make contact to the heatsink may be a slightly bigger problem, but surely solveable.

The most difficult part is probably to figure out the details of Apple's proprietary connector, but it has been done for the rMBP SSD's, so a precedence exists. Finally the physical connection between logic board and graphic card is done via flex cable, so a low-cost adapter for off-the-shelf cards seems to be possible.
 
I suggest you have a look at the iFixit teardown pictures. to develop a GPU upgrade for the nMP has nothing to do with tinkering anymore. this would mean serious business with R&D costs way too high. not a single off the shelf PC part can be used. no, I don't see that this will happen ever. it's not the same as it was with the G4 Cube where you could use an AGP graphics card as long as it would fit and as long it didn't draw too much power.

Well, that depends...

The Cube used an ADC graphics card, and I don't remember a single third party ADC GPU ever shipping.

Now, you could dump the ADC card, put in a standard DVI, and either ditch the Cinema Display, or get an expensive adaptor. But my point is that the G4's OEM GPUs were definitely of a more proprietary nature.

They weren't as proprietary as an entirely custom slot, but the G4 era wasn't exactly a beacon of open upgradability either.

The range of cards on the Cube that "didn't draw enough power" was pretty limited too. I've still got a Geforce2 MX in mine. Especially if you wanted to stay fanless it could be difficult.
 
So very wrong. From the introduction of the dual quad core (8 core) Mac Pro in 2007 to all Mac Pro systems from 2008 to 2010 there were dual quad core systems. They introduced dual 6 core (12 core) server models in 2010 too and then dual 6 core (12 core) models in their non-server line up in 2012.

And when was there ever a single 8 core and dual 4 cores released together? When was there dual 6 cores and a 12 single core released together? Please read what the discussion is before replying.

----------

Prime95 is AVX-optimized. Many libraries (like the Intel math libraries) are AVX-optimized - things like FFTs are using them already. Compilers can automatically use AVX for simple things like unrolling loops - so if you have the source code a simple compiler switch can turn it on.

AVX arrived with SandyBridge - it's here now. Haswell just adds integer support.

Nice, hope Maple and Mathematica eventually support this as well.
 
And when was there ever a single 8 core and dual 4 cores released together? When was there dual 6 cores and a 12 single core released together? Please read what the discussion is before replying.

You move the goalposts with every single response you get. Read every reply you've made so far to confirm this fact then realise the response you got was in context.
 
Well, that depends...

The Cube used an ADC graphics card, and I don't remember a single third party ADC GPU ever shipping.

Now, you could dump the ADC card, put in a standard DVI, and either ditch the Cinema Display, or get an expensive adaptor. But my point is that the G4's OEM GPUs were definitely of a more proprietary nature.

They weren't as proprietary as an entirely custom slot, but the G4 era wasn't exactly a beacon of open upgradability either.

The range of cards on the Cube that "didn't draw enough power" was pretty limited too. I've still got a Geforce2 MX in mine. Especially if you wanted to stay fanless it could be difficult.

Churned out a few hundred Cube GPUS.

Not a one of them had an ADC port. The idea of POWERING the display through the AGP slot was stupid to begin with. There was a CRT ADC display.

The 26 volt was a pass through from the main brick so wasn't going through VRM board but still a dumb idea. Anyone with ADC display could drop $100 on the Dr Bott Dviator, I used one with my 17"

To make nMP GPUS would be a tremendous undertaking. Layers of PCBs would need to be laid out and built and tested.
This would need to include lines for the main flash storage as well.

I do not believe they will ever be made, and if they are you will be paying not just for custom firmware and a few minor mods, as it is with cMP but also for all of the design, fab, testing and manufacturing work. And someone will have to have choked up the cash for all of that so some greedy investors will be wanting their money and of course the vig. Don't forget you aren't designing one GPU but 2 for any model you try to offer.

In short, even if by some miracle someone offers these, expect Apple Retail sort of pricing. Which will in most cases mean that buying a newer nMP will look more like a better idea.

So, to address the thread title, the nMP has followed the Cube well. But they learned a valuable lesson last time. This time they are only offering the compromised and limited version. They cut themselves 100% of the GPU upgrade market. There will be no Dual CPU MP to steal this one's thunder.

How do you make your fish seem bigger? Make the pond smaller.
 
Nice, hope Maple and Mathematica eventually support this as well.

Here are some AVX performance charts: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i7-4770k-haswell-performance,3461-2.html

Also found the bit "... the good news is that MATLAB uses the Intel MKL library to do a lot of its basic operations, and MKL version 11.0 supports Haswell/AVX2 instructions according to Intel's website." So MATLAB (and other MKL users) will get AVX2 support just by moving to the newer version of the library.
 
The idea of POWERING the display through the AGP slot was stupid to begin with. There was a CRT ADC display.

That's kind of my point. The idea that the G4 era was some magical era where Apple let their own design ego go for the sake of upgradability is a myth. They even built their displays with a totally proprietary connector. And having the port on the GPU as a proprietary port also ruined using normal displays. Usually Apple gave you just one DVI, but that was it.

And it's worth noting I'm not just talking about the Cube here. The towers were the same way.
 
Every. Single. One. Of. Them. (Assuming that you're comparing multi-socket workstations, that is.... None of the $299 Best Buy specials can go 12 core.)

Except that there would be many more than "a dozen" CPUs to upgrade.

No. You. Can. Not.

You can upgrade the Mac Pro CPU that the motherboard supports. Same rules apply to a windows machine. The socket dictates how many and what CPU can be used.

You can upgrade a single core Mac Pro to dual core. The same cannot be said for a comparable windows machine without replacing the motherboard. Save for the hp.

None of the windows machines are " plug and play" with exception to the HP work stations. The newer ones at that. Processor tray with no wires.

You would have to take a windows workstation half apart to replace the CPU. No plug and play there. Fighting with wires the whole time.

I know I did it on more than one occasion. Not fun.

Threre isn't still a workstation on the market other than the HP that is even close to the ease of use and workmanship of a Mac Pro. The hp is close to ease of use but the workmanship leaves something to be desired. The HP is basically a copy any way.
 
Threre isn't still a workstation on the market other than the HP that is even close to the ease of use and workmanship of a Mac Pro. The hp is close to ease of use but the workmanship leaves something to be desired. The HP is basically a copy any way.

I've upgraded plenty of PC CPUs without pulling out out any wires.

Well, except for the power cord.

If you're trying to make an ease of upgradability argument for the Mac Pro, upgrading the CPU isn't going to be it.

Any Xeon based PC workstation (and they're all in the same price range as the Mac Pro) is going to take the exact same upgrades. The Mac Pro isn't magic. It's using the exact same chipset and socket as the PCs it's competing against. That's not because anyone is copying Apple, rather that Apple is buying the same Intel chipsets everyone else is.
 
For me, the choices Apple made on the Mac Pro basically come down to one thing: A majority of users never upgrade their Mac Pros. They treat them as slightly more upgradable than their toasters. RAM and hard drive upgrades? Sure. Sometimes. But I hardly ever seen GPU upgrades done on any, and an even slimmer minority have CPU upgrades.

There are probably a few people in this thread who will disagree with me, especially forum users who sell GPUs for the Mac Pro. So try this little experiment: Go on Craigslist or eBay and do a search on Mac Pro. If you can find more than 10% for sale that have a GPU upgrade, you get a gold star.

"But the ones that have been upgraded stay in service longer so you won't find them on eBay! Users will run them into the ground!" Fine. Concentrate on old Mac Pros. Or G5s. You'll find the same thing. Heck, Bluray drive upgrades are more common than GPU upgrades.

So when Apple built a new Mac Pro, they built exactly what their user base used the Mac Pro for. A workstation appliance. The new Mac Pro is clearly a turn key system that is upgradable, but is not meant to be used on a 6-7 year lifespan, and it's not built toward easy GPU upgradability.

Heck, if everyone was buying third party GPUs, where are our exhaustive lines of 3rd party Mac GPU upgrades? EVGA does one every few years, so does AMD, and that's about it. One mainstream GPU from each vendor every few years. It's not a driver problem. The drivers are there. MacVidCards will tell you the drivers are there. Writing is on the wall. Mac GPUs do not sell, and they don't sell because a lot of people simply never upgrade their Mac Pro GPUs. They sell enough for MacVidCards to build a cottage industry, and I'm sure he has plenty of happy clients, but that doesn't make up enough of the Mac Pro user base.

Dual CPUs likely suffered a similar fate. That one would be easier for Apple to make up their minds on. They have the sales data. Likely a small minority of Mac Pro buyers were springing for dual CPU. If there was money there, Apple would sell dual CPU machines.

There are two things wrong with the G4 Cube comparison. First, Apple isn't selling a machine that no one wants. From what I see, they're building a machine intended for exactly what a majority of users did with their Mac Pros.

Second, the G4 Cube didn't sell because it wasn't upgradable enough. A lot of people wanted one at the time. It was a G4, with upgradable RAM and an upgradable hard drive. It was meant to be used with a big external display. It was exactly the sort of machine everyone wanted.

The problem was the price. For the same price as the G4 Cube you were only about $100 away from a G4 tower. And paying that much for a computer with risky quality control wasn't anyone's idea of a good purchase. That's why the Cubes started selling well the day they were discontinued. Everyone wanted one, but everyone was convinced there was going to be a price drop that never came.

(Sorry for the double post: The forum normally pins a second post to the end of the first, I assumed it would!)
 
I think we have Apple's new Mac Pro tag line, folks.

How about: Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.

As Apple's new motto?

Also, it's poignant to note that at least the first one is Copyright Arthur C. Clarke.
 
Yes. You. Can.

No. You. Can. Not.

You can upgrade the Mac Pro CPU that the motherboard supports. Same rules apply to a windows machine. The socket dictates how many and what CPU can be used.

That is so obvious it doesn't need to be stated.

My point was that since Apple uses the same sockets, processors and chipsets as everyone else - for any given socket and chipset the upgrade options for Windows/Linux/Solaris systems are the same as the upgrade options for Apples. Often greater. Until the MP6,1, when Apple upgradeability was sacrificed.


You can upgrade a single core Mac Pro to dual core. The same cannot be said for a comparable windows machine without replacing the motherboard. Save for the hp.

Any "comparable" Windows/Linux/Solaris machine has a dual-socket motherboard with one socket empty. Add processor and heat-sink (and often the VRM) and you have a dual. No mobo change required.

And it's merely a semantic distinction that the old Mac Pro was upgradeable from single to dual. The mobo was dual-capable, but you have to replace the CPU daughtercard to add a processor. In essence, the mobo was split into two pieces - and you have to completely replace one of the pieces.
 
Single Processor for 3000$ and DP for 3500 at the same frequency? Exactly twice as many cores for only 500$? I'd say go for DP. But with Intel's prices today we know that's not possible. Just look at the price of the 12 core. It's around 3000$. So yes, I think if Apple offered a 24 core Mac Pro with DP's at 13000$, it would be more like a collector's item.

The previous dual processor Mac Pro started at 3500,-, so it seemed possible a couple of months ago. Had they upgraded the old tower with current componets there is no reason why it would not cost the same. So you would have the nmp quad core starting at 3000,- and the old design mp with usb3 & thunderbolt and 2x quad core starting at 3500,-.

Both MacBook Airs and Pro's ship with i5 default. i7 is optional. You buy the i7 if your work depends on hyperthreading. If you are just browsing facebook and opt for the i7, then you are doing something wrong. And for many professionals, their MacBook Pro's are their primary work machines, so there certainly is a demand for high powered processors in laptops.

I thought we were talking about the majority of people and not professionals. :rolleyes:
 
The previous dual processor Mac Pro started at 3500,-, so it seemed possible a couple of months ago. Had they upgraded the old tower with current componets there is no reason why it would not cost the same. So you would have the nmp quad core starting at 3000,- and the old design mp with usb3 & thunderbolt and 2x quad core starting at 3500,-.

Ah, you are missing one thing. Since the introduction of Mac Pro Apple only offered DP configs at core counts which weren't possible with SP machines. So even if Apple offered a new DP Mac Pro, the DP option would be 16 core or 24 core, since they already offer a SP 12 and SP 8 core. And a DP 24 core would have costed around 12K, CPU's alone cost 7K. Even a DP 16 core would have costed well beyond 9K.

I thought we were talking about the majority of people and not professionals. :rolleyes:


The majority of people or majority of Apple laptop buyers?

The majority of Apple laptop buyers do not buy MacBook Pro's, they buy MacBook Airs with i5.
 
I do understand your arguments and the bigger company view behind them. I even understand Apples decision - that doesn't mean I have to like it though.
Exactly, I don't always like where Apple is going either but I do understand why they are doing it. Those things are quite different.

But still there is something I noticed in the last years when working for bigger companies. Since the never ending financial crisis that started 2008 even big companies have to watch their spendings more and more. That "oh that € 300,- part of that machine broke, let's just replace the whole € 3000,- machine then we have warranty again" attitude you described is found less and less. Sometimes there are discussions about € 50,- more during a € 100.000,- project.
I'm noticing the same thing but it highly depends on the company. Some are not doing well and have to cut costs everywhere, others are back on track. Where I work now I can even see those differences between groups. Really weird.

Second, it's not like building a Windows machine doesn't require any research. If I didn't do any research before ordering the parts maybe I'd end up frying the whole thing because I order a power supply that's too weak.
You're right but I wasn't talking about custom made machines (they always require lots of research) but just the run of the mill ones from Dell, HP, Lenovo. Those are easier to upgrade with less research than the Mac Pro is. Or put differently: the success rate when upgrading without doing any research is much higher.

Third, the new Mac Pro is certainly more "for the filthy rich only" than the old one was. The base model is € 500,- more, external thunderbolt storage is expensive, what if you don't even need dual gpus but rather have a strong single one, etc.
Price of the base Mac Pro is indeed higher, haven't done the math on the other models and variations. Sometimes manufacturers are aiming certain models, those are the sweetspot (the others are too expensive). Thunderbolt storage is debatable. Large companies usually have things like SAN, NAS but smaller ones don't. The latter might run into the "we need to spend more" problem.

Anyway, complaining won't help, for me the nmp is way too expensive for what it is. Guess in the future it's either back to buying new Apple laptops every 2 years or further down that rabbit hole and build a hackintosh.
Exactly: complaining here doesn't help. Not buying it and complaining to Apple about it might help. The main problem still won't go away: manufacturers have a certain target audience in mind. You might be part of that audience...or not. Lots of people here are exaggerating the problem. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean there is a design flaw.

Did you have a hard time upgrading your Mac Pro?
I'm a sysadmin, things like upgrading these machines is my job. Even getting old crap to work on the latest hardware (and by old crap I mean stuff from the Windows NT4 era). I know some users will do it themselves because they have knowledge and skill but most of the users do not. We don't mind that because that's how we make money. Try doing some sysadmin work for a few months and you'll understand ;)

No you have less GPU options to choose from, but that is good and bad. OSX supports less GPU options but when they work they work well. The same cannot be said for a comparable windows machine. Apple makes sure what is supported has no problems and is fully supported.
Apple only supports the videocards they put in the machines and sell via their own store. Any other videocard works because of the broader driver support. Aka it works because we got lucky, not because Apple is actively supporting them. If you know how a videocard driver from Nvidia and AMD looks like you'll understand why.

Windows is supported by nearly all hardware manufacturers and in some cases Windows is still the only OS where it works. Very annoying because it makes getting it to work in say Linux a bit more of a challenge. Again, we sysadmins don't mind because that's how we make money. We don't like standard, we like custom made (more fun to do and more money to be made).

Windows users do not have that luxury. This is what sets Apple apart. It just works. You seem not able to grasp that fact. Or do and just are ignoring it.
Apple isn't the only one any longer. There have been others doing this as well and with Windows 8 it has gotten easier. Apple does still have an advantage here though. When it comes to hardware support Windows still has the advantage.

You say it's better to just buy a new machine.
No, I'm not, it's the companies that do. They are just doing some math: the entire costs of upgrading the machine vs buying a new one. It is not uncommon that I have to tell them to do that calculation when they want to buy a new machine.

Most people who have workstations know their way around a computer or have someone that does.
Mostly the latter than the former. Again, try doing some sysadminning for a month.

What windows machine from 2009 or 2010 can you still upgrade to a 12 core machine with just plug and play? No wires etc.
Similar products from Oracle, Lenovo, HP, Dell and a few others. You can upgrade those without even using any tools. They use the same platform as the Mac Pro does but they don't have an EFI that limits functionality (why do you think you have to upgrade the EFI of the MP 2009 to that of the 2010/2012 model?). Plus they have an OS that is supported by nearly all of the manufacturers out there unlike non-Windows systems such as Linux and OS X.

I fail to see your point here. The old Mac Pro is very upgradeable. No problems, just plug and play in my opinion.
You really need to start reading some topics here in that case...
 
I've upgraded plenty of PC CPUs without pulling out out any wires.

Well, except for the power cord.

If you're trying to make an ease of upgradability argument for the Mac Pro, upgrading the CPU isn't going to be it.

Any Xeon based PC workstation (and they're all in the same price range as the Mac Pro) is going to take the exact same upgrades. The Mac Pro isn't magic. It's using the exact same chipset and socket as the PCs it's competing against. That's not because anyone is copying Apple, rather that Apple is buying the same Intel chipsets everyone else is.

Never said they would not take the same upgrades, or that Apple is magic. Never said anything about pulling out any wires.

Yes the Mac Pro ease of upgrading is superior and far easier than that of a competing PC workstation from any of the major players. Dell, ASUS, Lenovo, HP(save for one model) etc.

And yes the CPU is also easier to upgrade. As well as every part in the Mac Pro. And there are wires in the way when you try to upgrade anything in a PC workstation. Don't tell me there isn't. I know for a fact there are. And the excessive wires makes upgrading a chore. As well as having to remove half the computer to replace one part. I know i did it for years. Been there done that and don't want to do it again.

It's not magic, no its Apples attention to detail. Don't tell me about trying to upgrade PC workstations because I did plenty. More than most on this site.

I own and operate a marketing firm. We have over 40+ Macs and PC's. Mostly Macs now but that was not always the case. About seven years ago I switched to all Macs due to the servicing requirements for PC dell workstations and Apple's business support. Ease of use and less breakdowns mean more productivity for my business. More productivity means more money.

I used to have all Dell work stations and they were a bitch to upgrade. Not user friendly at all. And they were not meant to be. On purpose. What is missing in this thread is the fact that workstations are geared to businesses. Not consumers. Businesses. And business need support. The big players want you to buy their support. Hardware and software support. Dell for instance doesn't give you a choice on what type of support you want. You get one type of support and that's it. Take it or leave it. Either you want their help or not. Yes or no. Do you really think that they want their workstations easy to upgrade? If they were why would you need their support?

Apple Business on the other hand offers custom support to fit your businesses needs. I elected for software support only. Hardware support I hired my own staff to take care of that which saved me a ton of money on the support dell was offering or a competing big box company like dell or HP.

The Mac Pros were not only made for businesses, but with the consumer professional in mind also. Entails within that is ease of use.
 
Not user friendly at all.

Yes, not user friendly at all.

dell-precision-t7600-open-dual-processor-copy.jpg



When we're discussing the ability to upgrade, for 99% of users that pretty much means RAM, Storage, and PCIe expansion. I'm not sure how you can honestly say the Mac Pro is superior to PC workstations in this regard, and I like the Mac Pro a lot. RAM is probably the only area it wins, though marginally. Internal storage? Nothing yet to even upgrade with on the MP. Thunderbolt certainly takes care of external storage and most PCIe devices, though the additional cost there is another debate on its own. And then of course there are the GPUs, which are usually the crux of this argument. Again, nothing available to even upgrade with and there likely won't be.

As for the 1% who will attempt something like a CPU upgrade, that really doesn't look any easier or harder than a tower workstation from the video I've seen.
 
Yes, not user friendly at all.

Image


When we're discussing the ability to upgrade, for 99% of users that pretty much means RAM, Storage, and PCIe expansion. I'm not sure how you can honestly say the Mac Pro is superior to PC workstations in this regard, and I like the Mac Pro a lot. RAM is probably the only area it wins, though marginally. Internal storage? Nothing yet to even upgrade with on the MP. Thunderbolt certainly takes care of external storage and most PCIe devices, though the additional cost there is another debate on its own. And then of course there are the GPUs, which are usually the crux of this argument. Again, nothing available to even upgrade with and there likely won't be.

As for the 1% who will attempt something like a CPU upgrade, that really doesn't look any easier or harder than a tower workstation from the video I've seen.

Does the Dell have an internal shroud, or is that what the new ones look like as soon as you crack the case? The HP's we have at work feel like more cluttered versions of the G5s with pieces you have to break off before you can access anything. The old Dell Precisions we had have those annoying plastic clips for things but that layout certainly looks nicer.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthedudeman View Post
Did you have a hard time upgrading your Mac Pro?

I'm a sysadmin, things like upgrading these machines is my job. Even getting old crap to work on the latest hardware (and by old crap I mean stuff from the Windows NT4 era). I know some users will do it themselves because they have knowledge and skill but most of the users do not. We don't mind that because that's how we make money. Try doing some sysadmin work for a few months and you'll understand

Try 20 plus years. Been there and done that. Probably longer than yourself. And I have system Admins working for me and own my own business. So I know quite well what you have to go through. On both ends. I went through the same when I had PC workstations. That is why I switched to all Mac Pros. Your speaking to the choir here my friend. ;)

Working within the Apple envelope was very easy and the transaction seamless. My admin who work for me do very little on the hardware side only when upgrading. But other wise do the following:

Configure and deploy new Macs

Install and manage software of Macs that are in active use

Install software updates from Apple, third-party developers, and custom in-house software

Provide secure login and user experience management on each Mac (a.k.a. client management)

Integrate Macs with key enterprise systems (everything from central user accounts to corporate Wi-Fi and VPN access to file sharing and collaboration suites to internally and externally-hosted cloud solutions)

Remote troubleshooting

Setting up images they have no trouble with. They take half the time as their PC counterparts.

That is it. Now it gets more involved than that but there job is very, very easy. As so they tell me. :rolleyes:

The most trouble they have is with Microsoft’s Active Directory. Mostly with Centrify's Direct Control. But other than that not much problems.



I take it you do the equivalent on the PC side or both?



You still have not answered my question. You said these machines. That doesn't tell me anything.

What problems did you have upgrading the Mac Pro's that you worked on? Challenges if any.
 
Yes, not user friendly at all.

Image


When we're discussing the ability to upgrade, for 99% of users that pretty much means RAM, Storage, and PCIe expansion. I'm not sure how you can honestly say the Mac Pro is superior to PC workstations in this regard, and I like the Mac Pro a lot. RAM is probably the only area it wins, though marginally. Internal storage? Nothing yet to even upgrade with on the MP. Thunderbolt certainly takes care of external storage and most PCIe devices, though the additional cost there is another debate on its own. And then of course there are the GPUs, which are usually the crux of this argument. Again, nothing available to even upgrade with and there likely won't be.

As for the 1% who will attempt something like a CPU upgrade, that really doesn't look any easier or harder than a tower workstation from the video I've seen.

To be fair that looks close the the 'old mac pro'. But not quite. I had a dell rep put one on my desk so I had a close up look at one similar to the one you posted.

You have to remember most workstations are not built for consumers. Most need to replace everything in the computer at some point in time. You have it backwards my friend. Most consumers don't use workstations. The business that do need to access every part in the machine at one point or another in it's life cycle. You are looking at this from a consumer perspective I am not.

I am coming from the perspective of seven years ago. I have zero PC workstations at my business now. Trust me seven years ago the dell you just posted did not exist. Nor was it user friendly. And yes seven years ago a Dell workstation looked nothing like that. Trust me.

I can't tell you how many dell reps have been by my office to get my business to switch back to their workstations. When you take off the heat-sink it has a void warranty sticker on the bottom. Very small but its there. That should tell you something. The Pcie slots are not pull pin like the Mac pro. They have a plastic clip you break off. What if you want to take out a part? You cannot put that piece back on if you need to.

Want to replace the CPU? You have to disconnect the mother board first. The fan, power supply etc. Why you ask. Don't ask me. The rep failed to answer that question.

The dell you pictured is somewhat plug and play but most are not. It only took dell 6 years to catch up to Apple and they still cant get it right. You have to remember Apple designed the original Mac Pro in 2005-2006. It is and was ahead of its time. I have had seen the dell 7600 in person on more than one occasion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUkwvzKvLKU

The HP is certainly more impressive in person. Now I wouldnt mind having these at all. Save for they run windows. And you would be forced to buy into HP's support. While support is very good for a PC vendor, it is still not up to Apples standard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQAPNXAAezs


You can upgrade everything in the Mac Pro as well as the old Mac Pro. The old mac pro can use USB 3.0, SSD, Esata, CPU change, GPU etc.

We upgraded all our old Mac Pros. Only bought five new ones.

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Does the Dell have an internal shroud, or is that what the new ones look like as soon as you crack the case? The HP's we have at work feel like more cluttered versions of the G5s with pieces you have to break off before you can access anything. The old Dell Precisions we had have those annoying plastic clips for things but that layout certainly looks nicer.

Yes the Dell pictured has the plastic clips also. There still not there yet. :(
 
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