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What you should do is run Linux and teach those kids a thing or two about computing. :cool:


The Linux GUI isn't really something that can serve as an example (except as a bad example) - ignoring for a second the fact that Linux is only a kernel and the GUI is something of an afterthought....

OS X doesn't stop you from running secure shell-sessions to a central server with Linux or FreeBSD, where you can teach them the concepts of Linux (or FreeBSD, which might be more logical for somebody who hasn't completely drunken the systemd cool-aid).
 
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The Linux GUI isn't really something that can server as an example (except as a bad example) - ignoring for a second the fact that Linux is only a kernel and the GUI is something of an afterthought....

Au contraire! The total and complete separation of OS and UI is quite probably the greatest strength of the Unix system. Both Apple and Microsoft erred greatly by allowing so much vertical integration of their software stacks; Windows and Mac OS (the original "Mac OS", that is) were severely hampered by having to drag around enormous quantities of legacy GUI elements as the computing environment changed.

Linux, an OS that exists outside the realm of UI constraints, was adaptable to far more situations. Want a classic desktop environment? Take Linux and add something like Gnome or KDE. Want to run on a more marginal, or obsolete computer? Use a more lightweight window manager like XFCE or IceWM (I even still use TWM from time to time), or just chuck out the graphical UI completely and go all command-line. Hey, how about running Linux on a cell phone? Completely rethink the GUI and come out with something like Android. Embedded devices! No UI at all, just log in from remote. Workstations! Put together a cluster of boxes, and have them all display their data via remote X-Windows. Supercomputers! Linux runs fine there too...

The Linux GUIs serve not only as a fine example, but moreover as the path to the future. Windows Phone was not competitive with Android -- this is not because Microsoft didn't have enough engineers working on WP, but rather because the guys who created Android (before Google bought them out) didn't have to reinvent an OS; they simply grabbed Linux off the shelf, and slapped their own UI on top. A far more efficient software engineering methodology than constantly reinventing the very same wheel. Heck, OS X itself is an incredibly powerful and flexible OS not because Apple wrote it from scratch, but rather because Apple simply took the 3 decades of effort already put into BSD, and concentrated solely on perfecting an Apple-quality GUI to place on top...
 
What you should do is run Linux and teach those kids a thing or two about computing. :cool:

Truth is that many of them could probably teach me plenty about computing. One of the things I like about Mac is that I can just do stuff, without having to know much. Mac is ideal for the less than computer literate.

Back in the day, at university, we had to deal with MS-DOS, along with Macintosh System Software or Mac OS (now known as the "classic" Mac OS). I wondered why; the Macs were so easy to use.. Windows was rumoured, but had yet to arrive on the scene.

After I left university I had nothing to do with computers for many years. Not much use for a computer as an itinerant farm labourer, shearing sheep, driving tractors, and building fences. When eventually I did, I encountered Windows 95, and then 98, with frequent crashes, having to load drivers for new hardware and so on. I didn't really want to have much to do with computers then, but was quite early in adopting e-mail in the mid '90s. I still use my original Hotmail and Yahoo e-mail addresses from a couple of decades ago.

It was a few more years and a career change before I came to the point of needing a computer myself. I wanted something easily occasionally transportable, but I did not, and still do not, want a portable. When the Mac Mini arrived in 2005, it was just what I wanted, so I got one. It was a revelation when I discovered that I could just plug it in and do stuff, and did not have to muck around with drivers and so on.

When I got my 2009 Mini, and installed iWork, it was pleasant to no longer have to deal with Word. Whereas I seldom used Excel, I now use Numbers just about every day.

Your observations may be correct in your case. However, go back and read your own posts. You frequently use words with negative connotations to label those who disagree with your perspective.

Your last line is another one: snide, jollies, malcontents. How do you want people to respond to you?

And yes, my mini does do most of what I want. Wasn't adequate for doing time lapses, though, so I began to transition away. I see the phrase "not adequate for content creators" quite frequently and would have to agree, even for my basic use.

You are new around here, aren't you?

This enduring thread has done so because, although exchanges are occasionally somewhat opinionated, there is generally a good natured wittiness, humour and respect about about the thread. Folks here don't take themselves too seriously. However, occasionally someone does turn up apparently looking to win a fight, for whom a more robust response seems warranted. They don't tend to hang around for long, though sometimes do return from time to time.

As you observe, the Mac Mini is good for most of what many people want. It is all the computer many, if not most people need. If your needs are greater, stump up the cash for something more suitable rather than wishing a Mini could be what it isn't, or learn to live with the limitations of what it is.

But then ya'll can live and dream, coz the new Mac Mini is almost certainly coming….. and you never know what surprise it may herald.
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A long time ago Apple seemed to be interested in getting their hardware into schools; not so much today...
Yes, time was that Apple seemed to follow the (Jesuit?) adage. "Give us the boy, and we'll have the man". College dropouts that the Apple founders were, they saw college campuses as the way into the future for their company.
 
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Truth is that many of them could probably teach me plenty about computing. One of the things I like about Mac is that I can just do stuff, without having to know much. Mac is ideal for the less than computer literate.

Back in the day, at university, we had to deal with MS-DOS, along with Macintosh System Software or Mac OS (now known as the "classic" Mac OS). I wondered why; the Macs were so easy to use.. Windows was rumoured, but had yet to arrive on the scene.

After I left university I had nothing to do with computers for many years. Not much use for a computer as an itinerant farm labourer, shearing sheep, driving tractors, and building fences. When eventually I did, I encountered Windows 95, and then 98, with frequent crashes, having to load drivers for new hardware and so on. I didn't really want to have much to do with computers then, but was quite early in adopting e-mail in the mid '90s. I still use my original Hotmail and Yahoo e-mail addresses from a couple of decades ago.

It was a few more years and a career change before I came to the point of needing a computer myself. I wanted something easily occasionally transportable, but I did not, and still do not, want a portable. When the Mac Mini arrived in 2005, it was just what I wanted, so I got one. It was a revelation when I discovered that I could just plug it in and do stuff, and did not have to muck around with drivers and so on.

When I got my 2009 Mini, and installed iWork, it was pleasant to no longer have to deal with Word. Whereas I seldom used Excel, I now use Numbers just about every day.

Interesting story... thanks for sharing.

I grew up in the 90s and we used Macs at school (a few Classics, the odd SE, and a ton of PPCs followed by first-gen iMacs). We used Windows at home which was good for the games that I liked, and everyone I knew also used Windows PCs. It was neat getting to experience both at that time.

I consider myself fortunate to have lived through that exciting time and have a good understanding of how we've arrived where we are today, both in terms of software and hardware.

The only drawback is sometimes I see things change in a way that I don't consider better (such as neglecting the Mini and Pro desktop computers). I'm sure the kids don't have much interest in a desktop when it's a smartphone/laptop generation. Apple knows this and I suspect that's why they, too, are shifting their direction away from these products.
 
Micky Do - why I and many others keep pulling you up about your posting of Mac versus Windows is because we don't recognise the world of Windows you are painting. Windows 10 is very good and also very stable so all these posts about keep having to get you I.T. people in to deal with Windows doesn't fit with most people's experience.

Why the village idiot could now deal with Windows 10 issues they are so infrequent and easy to sort out. The reason people criticise Apple and the Mini is because most people buying this product don't want to be told by Apple - this is it, take it or leave it and no we are not going to make it user upgradeable and we're not going to put decent components in it either.
 
Au contraire! The total and complete separation of OS and UI is quite probably the greatest strength of the Unix system.
It is, on the server.
On the client: not so much.
That's why things are headed the Apple way, even in Linux land:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server_protocol)

Both Apple and Microsoft erred greatly by allowing so much vertical integration of their software stacks; Windows and Mac OS (the original "Mac OS", that is) were severely hampered by having to drag around enormous quantities of legacy GUI elements as the computing environment changed.
I can't really comment, as I'm an expert for neither.
At least, Apple (well: NeXT) didn't start with X but ran their own show...

The Linux GUIs serve not only as a fine example, but moreover as the path to the future.
No, they don't.
KDE tried to look like the current version of Windows (only worse) until it got booted from most distros for lack of accessibility-features, a niche where iOS and macOS are exceptionally strong, incidentally.
Gnome is hideous.
I use XFCE, but it's mainly an "app-launcher" for me (terminal, browser, libreoffice, some other apps). And yes, I use it because it uses very little resources.
Most of the automatisms in Gnome or KDE or even XFCE got into the way of my daily work, so there's little use for running a fat desktop like the first two, when it gets more in the way than it helps.
My usage of OS X at home is bit different than what I do at work, so it works out ok.


Windows Phone was not competitive with Android -- this is not because Microsoft didn't have enough engineers working on WP, but rather because the guys who created Android (before Google bought them out) didn't have to reinvent an OS; they simply grabbed Linux off the shelf, and slapped their own UI on top.

Microsoft hung to the wrong paradigms for too long (keyboard, mouse-like input).
And then Apple created a new OS (and a new UI paradigm) and everybody realized how full of **** they'd been.
Google et.al. fell over themselves copying all the aspects of iOS until it looked like iOS.
Microsoft and Apple entered into a patent-sharing agreement, so when you see a feature of Windows Mobile in iOS, it's not stolen, neither are iOS-like features in Windows Mobile.
"Slapping a GUI on top of it" created the kind of UIs that most people associated with those early Android years don't want to talk about. Because it clearly failed in the market, once people could play with iPhones in stores.

A far more efficient software engineering methodology than constantly reinventing the very same wheel. Heck, OS X itself is an incredibly powerful and flexible OS not because Apple wrote it from scratch, but rather because Apple simply took the 3 decades of effort already put into BSD, and concentrated solely on perfecting an Apple-quality GUI to place on top...

It's not that simple.
They have a different kernel (Mach) and they have a lot of their own stuff like launchd, which incidentally integrates GUI and non-GUI components so stuff can work together (e.g. if you connect to a WLAN, all sorts of stuff has to be done, with all kinds of dependencies).
The userland is mostly BSD, yes.
The BSD license is not opposed to this kind of usage. Apple probably had to rebase their in-house code regularly with the moving target that FreeBSD source code is. While it didn't give back much (on the outside), it still needed people working on that code. As a result, more people got exposure to BSD code and more people earned money doing BSD.
After a while, people move on and they often end up at BSD-centric companies again.
Case in point, Apple's Director of Unix Engineering (or what his title was) and co-founder of the FreeBSD project, Jordan K Hubbard left Apple after 12-ish years and is now heading at iX-systems, creating next-generation GUIs for server- client- and storage administration (FreeNAS/TrueNAS/TrueOS etc.pp.).

BSD has always been about "the long arc of time". And, apart from the license, that might be one of the reasons it was chosen as a basis for OS X.
 
It is, on the server.
On the client: not so much.
That's why things are headed the Apple way, even in Linux land:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server_protocol)

Wayland is actually a great example: it is designed as a substitute for the X Window system, pushing the work of rendering graphics down as close as possible to the machine(s) hosting the display, whereas X centralizes most of the computing work in one place and then distributes the results to remote displays. (So far though, it seems as though Wayland has sacrificed network transparency to achieve performance, so it's missing one of the key features of X...)

But note! Wayland is not part of Linux. It is an application that runs on top of Linux. You can run Linux just fine without Wayland. You can choose to run Wayland or X (or Android's graphical backend, or no graphical backend at all) on top of the very same Linux kernel.

So yeah, when someone upgrades the Linux kernel, that upgrade gets distributed to desktop machines running X or running Wayland, cell phones running Android, and supercomputers running no graphical UI at all. It's all the same OS underneath everything, even when using radically different schemes to display data.

At least, Apple (well: NeXT) didn't start with X but ran their own show...

Yes, they ran with their own show -- for their GUI. The actual underlying OS, however, is fairly vanilla BSD (although using Mach extensions, for what it's worth):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)

KDE tried to look like the current version of Windows (only worse) until it got booted from most distros for lack of accessibility-features, a niche where iOS and macOS are exceptionally strong, incidentally.

KDE only looks like Windows if you choose to make it look like Windows. ;) Both KDE and Gnome are exceptionally customizable, but yeah, a lot of people just try to make them look like what they already know, either Windows or Mac.

The KDE vs. Gnome wars have accelerated to become today's vi vs. emacs wars. ;)

Gnome is hideous.

:) :) Again, depends a lot on how you configure it. I find the idea of trying to implement an entire full-featured object-oriented structure inside of a non-object-oriented programming language hideous, but I don't think the graphical results are so bad. :)

I use XFCE, but it's mainly an "app-launcher" for me (terminal, browser, libreoffice, some other apps). And yes, I use it because it uses very little resources.

And the reason it is able to use so few resources? Because you don't have to load the entire back-end of Gnome or KDE (or any other "full-featured GUI") into memory when you run Linux. Because the GUI is explicitly not part of Linux!


Anyway, I'm dragging this on too long. Long story short: there are many, many ways to construct a user interface. And there are good reasons to use a different UI in different situations. The advantage of the Unix way of doing things is that the operating system is UI-agnostic: it does not provide support for any specific UI (or any specific graphics display subsystem for that matter), and as such works well with many different UIs.
 
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It's pretty obvious that this was no mistake. They've put no effort at all into advertising the Mini (even for its supposed role as a way to lure PC users into the Mac ecosystem), they've only updated the Mini once in the last four+ years, and that one update soldered the RAM to the motherboard and locked the drives down with security screws.

In short, they have relegated the Mini to a bottom-of-the-barrel entry-level role, and made moves to ensure that end-users cannot modify it for use in any other role.

At the same time, they've worked to bring down the price of the entry-level iMac, and have continued to advertise and update that model. On the other side, they've worked hard to make the ATV a real product.

My guess is that at some point in the near future, there is going to be an event where Apple will bring out a sub-$1000 iMac and a powerful souped-up ATV. And with these devices aimed at the low-end Mac and HTPC markets, they will finally see no need for a Mini, and drop it entirely...


The problem has always been one of ergonomics. Another screen in my Media room is a no-go. Serious work with a large TV/Monitor at movie-viewing distance is not comfortable or effective over long periods even with wireless mouse and keyboard - my guess is posture plays a large part of "real work". Slaving an iPad off a Mini is perhaps more effective but again, limited in terms of real work.

The headless box is the smartest application in HTPC.
 
Ultimately, the next new thing will need to be a paradigm in terms of the way we interact with technology. Is it thin, is it fast, is it aluminum and does it have ports sort of belies the times we live in - it's all mush at this point because there really isn't anything "new" that you're going to do that you can't do albeit a little faster - think in terms of applications , there's every and anything.

How about that keyboard - we want to go faster but we don't want to leave the keyboard - this points to our linear existence and the total control of putting those characters on the page one at a time. Predictive typing has it's place but I don't think a true novelist would let the computer pen their verses. We as humans want to keep some element of our frailty near and dear.

How best to interact then? ...

Apples myopia is startling indeed even under Jobs - a true visionary, he was still captive of his own mind which is why Apple is having problems today. Jobs should have become a "brand" reproducible and fluid!
 
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Micky Do - why I and many others keep pulling you up about your posting of Mac versus Windows is because we don't recognise the world of Windows you are painting. Windows 10 is very good and also very stable so all these posts about keep having to get you I.T. people in to deal with Windows doesn't fit with most people's experience.

Why the village idiot could now deal with Windows 10 issues they are so infrequent and easy to sort out. The reason people criticise Apple and the Mini is because most people buying this product don't want to be told by Apple - this is it, take it or leave it and no we are not going to make it user upgradeable and we're not going to put decent components in it either.

IBM found that not only do PCs drive twice the amount of support calls, they’re also three times more expensive.
 
Wow, there a 15 different 2014 Mini's on Apple's refurb store today. I don't ever recall seeing that much variety before:http://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/mac_mini

Suddenly there are mini's all over the place. B&H Photo has 9 different flavors in stock today. On the day of the MBP annoncement there were only 3. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ns=p_PRICE_2|0&ci=10009&setNs=p_PRICE_2|0&N=4110474298+35&srtclk=sort

Too bad it's still the same old same old though, and the prices haven't dropped any lower either. :( However, in spite of all our complaining, this makes me think the Mini must still be a good seller.
 
At this point I am considering an iMac instead of an mini. One has to assume that Apple will discontent the Mac mini and Mac Pro. Sad but true. Or maybe a hackintosh instead but I am not sure if I want that.
 
At this point I am considering an iMac instead of an mini. One has to assume that Apple will discontent the Mac mini and Mac Pro. Sad but true. Or maybe a hackintosh instead but I am not sure if I want that.

Well don't get the current iMac's as they are almost as long in the tooth as the Mini - i.e. desperately in need of an upgrade.
 
I have seen the occasional splash of (overpriced) refurbished minis on the UK store but I don't think it means anything much in the grand scheme of things. The next milestone to look forward to is what deals Apple come up with for Black Friday, especially in the UK. Last year was nonexistent from what I recall. Just over 2 weeks to wait I guess.
 
I have seen the occasional splash of (overpriced) refurbished minis on the UK store

There seems to be a lot of variation in the US refurbs. I still have my eye on the 3ghz/16gb/256gb SSD version. None in the refurb store today, but a couple days ago I think the price was about $1190 vs a new one from B&H for $1399. That's a significant discount, more than enough to make up for the difference in sales tax (that I would pay with Apple but not B&H).

Making another spot comparison just now, the 3ghz/8gb/1tb Fusion model is $1,019 at the Apple refurb store but a new one from B&H is only $969. That's crazy… when you factor in sales tax, the new one would be $121 cheaper than the refurb! o_O

FWIW, there are now only 6 refurbs on Apple's site, down from 15 when I posted earlier. But B&H keeps building their inventory and now has 11 different configurations in stock. Sure seems like people continue to buy these machines regardless of the price and technology...
 
I have been looking at the new MacBook Pro models, and I think that if the new mac mini (almost certainly Coming) is essentially a MacBook Pro (without screen, battery, keyboard, touchpad, etc.) that would not be bad. The 13" base model with no touch bar (or whatever that thing is called) has a 15 watt TDP 2.0 gz dual-core i5, with 8 gb of memory, a 256gb SSD, and Iris graphics 5500. That would be a big improvement over the current 1.4gz entry-level Mini model.

The next level up in the 13" line, with touch bar, has a 28 watt TDP, 8/256/Iris graphics 540, not bad for a next-level-up Mini.

And of course we hope that at the top of the heap we hope to have the choice of a mini that is based on the 15" MacBook Pro with 45 watt quad-core i5 and i7 and dGPU.
 
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My (pessimistic) prediction of a new Mac Mini:

Looking at Apple's recent laptops, Apple's design philosophy is that your computer should be powered over USB-C from your external display. Therefore, and especially because the Mini has no display at all, the internal power supply will be removed. Mini's will ship with a MBP power brick.

As the Mini is a desktop unit, it will retain Ethernet and HDMI ports.

RAM will of course be soldered, with 8GB standard and 16GB optional.

My initial thinking was that there would be only SSD drive options, starting at 256GB and on up. However the CoLo folks undoubtedly want HDD options for price/capacity reasons. Thus there will also be HDD options. This means the base model will have a cheap slow spinner.

For the CPU, I see three options: A slow 15W with Iris 540 graphics. A 28W with Iris 550 graphics. And a BTO configuration with a faster 28W CPU. If the release is soon, it'll have Skylake chips. If it is released in a few months (say January through March), then it might have Kaby Lake (and the corresponding 640/650 GPUs.) I could see Apple wanting to release a Mini with a two year product life, and thus they may wait for Kaby Lake.

For ports, there would be the afore mentioned Ethernet and HDMI, and ... two (2) USB-C/TB3 ports, one of which will have to be filled with your power input.

...

A possible revision due to technical reasons:

USB-C can deliver 100W of power. However, this requires the device and power supply negotiate an upshift in power. Is this done in an OSX driver? An EFI driver? Or maybe the SMC does this? In a laptop this does not matter as it can boot on battery power and then crank up the USB-C. A Mini however would need full power from the start. This may require that the SMC perform the negotiation.

Therefore, the Mini might instead have an extra power port - perhaps a MagSafe port.

...

If there's no HDD option, then the new Mini might be the size and thickness of a deck or two of playing cards. With an HDD, it'll need to be thicker or bigger.
 
My (pessimistic) prediction of a new Mac Mini:
That's pessimistic?

My serious expectations are... well, that they won't update it, but if they do:
– 2xUSB-C port plus possibly HDMI, nothing else... oh wait. 3.5mm headphones jack without optical audio!
– 128, 256, 512 GB + 1 TB SSD
– external USB-C spinner drive, 1 TB at only €199

Therefore, the Mini might instead have an extra power port - perhaps a MagSafe port.
MagSafe in a desktop? Do you mean Kensington lock?
 
Current Minis have 2 thunderbolt and 4 USB3 ports, is this correct?
Six in total.

I would "split the six" into 3 USB-c ports and 3 USB3 "A" ports on the new one.
That gives ports for the future, but retains legacy connectibility for this generation.
These ports can be oriented vertically.

Also, ethernet and HDMI 2.0 (assuming it can be used).
Power in port and (if room), an SD card slot.
 
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