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I think its a good idea. Ive been thinking about this for a while as well. What if i dont like the mac mini because of the lac of power, graphics capability, and ram limitations, but i love the apple cinema displays. What if i dont like the size of a pm because i move a lot and dont like to lug it around. That definately leaves room for a compact headless mac with a high end processor and ram expandibility to say 8 gigs. As well as bto options for a high end graphics card. I want the 20 inch screen without the 20 inch computer. ::walks back into cave::
 
QCassidy352 said:
Exactly. People really need to stop with this "headless imac" nonsense. I know you want it (heck, I'd buy one too), but it's not going to happen.

I agree completely, but was too shy to be bolder! :)

The people who read MacRumors are a very select bunch. A headless mini-tower is something that a lot of us might like, but it's not a universal need. We want the latest and greatest and enjoy following the company/products. However, most people just want a computer for basic tasks that will last a while. Adding another hard drive? Putting in up to 8GB of RAM? This isn't "pimp my mini-tower".

Most people don't want to install this stuff on their own, no matter how easy we think it is. The major market for serious expansion potential is the Mac Pro.
 
roland.g said:
You may be right about the second point. But don't tell me about mythical beasts when there are a lot of PC users out there that fit in this target. So I'm guess there are Mac users too.

I think this has a lot more to do with the lack of an appealing all-in-one option for the PC user.
 
A lot of us seem to want some variation of the Cube to come back. Why don't we contact Apple in some way. Bombard their email with messages of saying resurrect the cube! Or call I don't know. I'll write an email.
 
QCassidy352 said:
First, who does this target? Not students, who are better off with space saving macbooks or imacs. Not casual "grandma" users who will never ever upgrade anything on the mac. Not professionals, who want a real pro computer. This appeals to the "knowledgable consumer." This mythical beast is common on MR, but rare in the real world. So we're talking about a small market for this box.

BZZT.
You left out the most important class of customers of them all.
Medium/Large businesses.

You know, the ones who order 20 - 200 computers at a time, while maintaining a healthy choice of peripherals (Need a bigger monitor? No problem).

Medium/Large businesses *LOVE* Dell.
Same-day on-site technicians, great pricing, great customization.

As a great example, I give you "V" from my office.
V's doing business development, often having some 20 Excel documents open, as well as his mailclient and 10 - 20 websites.

V is not a power user.

V does not need a Mac Pro 2.0 or 2.66.
V can't use a iMac 20".
V most certainly can't use a Mac Mini.

What I'd *want* to get for him would be a "Mac" (sans "Pro").
The fabled headless mac, probably with a Conroe 2.4, 2GB of RAM and his beloved dual 24" Dell monitors.

Instead, he's running on a Dell Optiplex, Pentium D 3.2, 2GB of RAM and 2x24" monitors.
Total cost of his rig (including monitors)?
€2000

There's lots of people like V at the office, and we're only one medium sized company, in a world with many companies like ours.
 
There simply isn't a market out there for this headless mac. If there was, Apple would've introduced it already. Apple already tried this headless mid level mac thing (the cube) and they failed and the know they will fail again if they try so why would they be so stupid to do it again.
 
rylin said:
BZZT.
As a great example, I give you "V" from my office.
V's doing business development, often having some 20 Excel documents open, as well as his mailclient and 10 - 20 websites.

You had me up until this example, in which you unwittingly demonstrate why you're wrong. Ignoring for a moment the fact that an iMac is just fine for the tasks you cite -- you're describing generic office tasks that the vast majority of professionals already use Windows for anyway. No company is going to switch operating systems on people without a compelling reason, and Apple would have to practically give the things away for free to make it worth any company's while.

I work in the art department of a small-medium business, and we face the dilemma which leads some on this forum to want a "headless iMac" -- the Power Mac/Mac Pro is increasingly too much for our needs (both in terms of cost and specs), but it's the only model of Mac offering both good performance and a choice of displays. The thing is, there are just 4 of us in this art department, and we're accustomed to Macs and Adobe products -- and Apple knows we have little choice but to go for PowerMacs/Mac Pros, so we do. Everyone else in the company, business types, secretaries, etc, use Dells. And why shouldn't they? Sure, Apple'd like it if they were all using iMacs instead, but they wouldn't very much like competing with their bargain-basement pricetags.

(btw, I should point out that anyone who needs two 24" monitors and works on 40 documents simultaneously could certainly be called a "power user", regardless of whether he needs Xeons in his machine. And that kind of monitor overkill is most definitely *not* typical for small and medium businesses)
 
tipdrill407 said:
There simply isn't a market out there for this headless mac. If there was, Apple would've introduced it already. Apple already tried this headless mid level mac thing (the cube) and they failed and the know they will fail again if they try so why would they be so stupid to do it again.

Even apart from the failure of the Cube, the very fact that they've progressively killed off the lower-end PowerMacs over the last few years, and the price of the low end Apple tower has steadily risen, argues that they have decided there's just not enough money in that segment of the market.

Meanwhile, their strategy of forcing people who need expandable Macs to get more and more expensive machines is working (the company I work for being living proof) -- one of the advantages of having no competetion from other vendors selling machines running the same software. Expecting Apple to act just like any other PC maker in its offerings is just asinine.
 
roland.g said:
Give us the headless Mac

Base Model:
2.0 ghz Merom, upgradable to 2.33
250 GB HDD, upgradable to 500, plus a 2nd 500 available
512 MB RAM, upgradable to 2 GB
x1800 video with 128 MB VRAM, upgradable to 256
some way to drive 2 screens or a 30" ACD, whether a graphics card option, or use of the empty pci slot
airport & bluetooth standard
superdrive
keyboard & mouse
Front Row, remote, IR sensor

Base model price: $1499

Nicely equipped: 2.0 ghz, 2 GB RAM, 500 GB HDD - $1999

I would like to see a Core 2 Duo linked up to 4 ram slots. That way i can get 2 gig cheaply or more if I really need it.

Third HDD? It would nice to be able to get the cheap model with dual 160GB HDDs, and then offer 250GB and 500GB options. The more I think about it the more I would also like a third HDD bay so I can store stuff that wont be subject to Time Machine or for more traditional backup or as a windows drive. This machine should have FW800 to allow such expansion.

Should be room in the box for dual linked graphics cards for gamers.

Maybe they can put in some of those new dispplay buttons so i can select OSX or windows before I hit the boot button...
 
Think of the Gamers!

Please. No more "There is no market for a headless iMac".

Let's take the example of a friend of mine.

He is a heavy gamer, and has just ordered a new computer that he will be getting in a week or so.

Its specs: 2.4 Conroe, and a x1900 XTX. For about AU$4G, including screen.

As I'm sure you all realise, no mac can compete with a computer like this. To make a Mac Pro be comparable to this would probably cost about 50% more (for gaming at least)

Any high school kid or university student knows that there are about 200 thousand billion heavy gamers out there who will not buy an iMac because their graphics cards suck, and will not buy a Mac Pro because they are complete overkill, and much too expensive. So instead they turn to PCs.

Either a cube or a pizza box, as long as it was completely upgradeable, could bring in tens of trillions of new mac gamers who want hot looking rigs that are still capable of running windows.

Apple would be stupid not to see this. They need a computer with a medium range CPU and an awesome GPU, that a person can connect an external screen to.


By the way, wouldn't it be cool if Apple released a headless with a Kentsfield processor and whatever the ATi R600 turns out to be???
Imagine that playing Quake 4 on a 30" Cinema Display...

Apple should be able to modify the mini design to make a fully customisable mac, that could be dropped to integrated graphics and a slow Conroe, or boosted to any of the leading graphics cards and a 3.2 Core 2 Extreme, or anywhere in between. Drop the iMac and Mini altogether, making the iMac solely an Educational Institution option.

Choose Choice.
 
Erasmus said:
Please. No more "There is no market for a headless iMac".

Let's take the example of a friend of mine.

He is a heavy gamer, and has just ordered a new computer that he will be getting in a week or so.

Its specs: 2.4 Conroe, and a x1900 XTX. For about AU$4G, including screen.

As I'm sure you all realise, no mac can compete with a computer like this. To make a Mac Pro be comparable to this would probably cost about 50% more (for gaming at least)

If you can afford to drop 3 grand on a computer, you can afford a Mac Pro. Lessee, the graphics card you referenced goes for $400 (USD), plus a $2100 Mac Pro (base config), plus, let's say, a $1000 3rd party 24" display, that's $3500 -- about $400 (again, USD) more than your friend spent, but hardly "50% more", and certainly within reason for someone who can fritter away that kind of money on something as pointless as gaming.
 
brianus said:
If you can afford to drop 3 grand on a computer, you can afford a Mac Pro. Lessee, the graphics card you referenced goes for $400 (USD), plus a $2100 Mac Pro (base config), plus, let's say, a $1000 3rd party 24" display, that's $3500 -- about $400 (again, USD) more than your friend spent, but hardly "50% more", and certainly within reason for someone who can fritter away that kind of money on something as pointless as gaming.

3500 US equates to 4600 AU.

And, by the way, my estimate of 6G was accurate. In Australia, a quad 2Ghz with 2Gb RAM, stock HDD, the X1900 XT (Which is inferior to XTX) and the 23" screen costs 6,167. Obviously he probably wants more than 2Gb RAM. Did I mention he's getting a Raptor HDD?

An extra 2Gb RAM costs an extra 1300 and the 30" screen will add 1600.

So as you can see, my initial statement is true. Apple have nothing that can compare with this.

Gamers don't need quad cpus, they want better GPUs.

Four cores is overkill (extremely expensive overkill) for most normal applications. A GPU can never supply enough power for any normal game, and no doubt Leopard and Vista will tax heavily on them.
 
Erasmus said:
Please. No more "There is no market for a headless iMac".

Let's take the example of a friend of mine.

He is a heavy gamer, and has just ordered a new computer that he will be getting in a week or so.

If there was a market for this machine apple would've offered it already, they're not stupid. Also heavy gamers are NOT apple's consumer base. Everyone including die hard mac fans know that macs are inferior for gaming and those who do hardcore gaming should run far far away from a mac and just get a pc.
 
tipdrill407 said:
If there was a market for this machine apple would've offered it already, they're not stupid. Also heavy gamers are NOT apple's consumer base. Everyone including die hard mac fans know that macs are inferior for gaming and those who do hardcore gaming should run far far away from a mac and just get a pc.

Why do they have to stay bad for gaming? This was also just an example of one user base who would like this sort of computer. I'm sure there are many people in graphics and video industries who want a better GPU in a cheap computer that they can use their 120" hyper screens with. The point I am trying to get across is that Apple could do well by consolidating their lines to make them more practical to the consumer, decrease costs and increase profit margins. If you want an iMac, you configure it to an iMac. If you want a Conroe-L with intgrated graphics, you configure it that way, or you get a Mac Mini (which they should keep as a micro tower). If you want a, b and c, you get a, b and c, not a, e, and z.

Of course, consolidating lines could royally screw Apple, but I'm being optimistic that they will come out with an awesome design. How about a pizza box computer that can slot over the back of an Apple Cinema Display to make a pseudo-iMac, or can be placed under the desk, or under any other display? Or put in a cupboard near the family widescreen plasma for the perfect multimedia experience? That would be cool.
 
brianus said:
You had me up until this example, in which you unwittingly demonstrate why you're wrong. Ignoring for a moment the fact that an iMac is just fine for the tasks you cite -- you're describing generic office tasks that the vast majority of professionals already use Windows for anyway. No company is going to switch operating systems on people without a compelling reason, and Apple would have to practically give the things away for free to make it worth any company's while.
...
(btw, I should point out that anyone who needs two 24" monitors and works on 40 documents simultaneously could certainly be called a "power user", regardless of whether he needs Xeons in his machine. And that kind of monitor overkill is most definitely *not* typical for small and medium businesses)

It might not be the typical situation you're used to, but it is one I am used to.
Our developers sit on 2x19"FS, 2x20"WS or 1x24"WS. Our marketing department sits partly on notebooks with an external 19" or 20"WS. Some people have a single 24", others have a dual setup.
Whether or not it's common in your line of work does not matter; I'm saying there is a need for a headless Mac.

While an iMac *would* "probably" be OK for V, he'd have to scale down the scope of his work.

You do not need quad Xeons to switch between 40 excel documents and a set of browsers.
What you do need, however, is RAM.
2GB is not enough unless you want to hit swapspace.
Hitting swapspace means going from > 3.2GBps to ~20MBps.
Swapping means lost effective time.

Arbitrary computing-constraints placed by Apple's engineering team hamper their bottom line.
If I can't mix and match *peripherals* with the machines I buy, I might as well buy a PSP. (Sliding off on a tangent here; draw parallels to the iMac if you will...)

I'm not asking for an open platform; fine - give me your somewhat more expensive hardware, but give me options.
You think the Mac Pro's 5 million BTO combinations is amazing?
Dell provide way more combinations than that.

If price would be everything, Dell wouldn't be riding the slippery slope towards financial hell - but they are.
Companies love Dell because it lets them custom tailor their computer solutions to their business needs.

I have mine, you have yours.
If you live in a reality where everybody has the same computing needs, well give me a call and I'll conform with the rest of the Soviet Union.
 
rylin said:
It might not be the typical situation you're used to, but it is one I am used to.
Our developers sit on 2x19"FS, 2x20"WS or 1x24"WS. Our marketing department sits partly on notebooks with an external 19" or 20"WS. Some people have a single 24", others have a dual setup.
Whether or not it's common in your line of work does not matter; I'm saying there is a need for a headless Mac.

A desire -- not the same thing as a need. It has to be a big enough need for it to matter. I don't see the kinds of setups you describe as being common enough for Apple to consider them, or for any other company to consider Apple when the tasks such a setup are being used for are so generic (and therefore, already pretty much owned by Windows).

While an iMac *would* "probably" be OK for V, he'd have to scale down the scope of his work.

You do not need quad Xeons to switch between 40 excel documents and a set of browsers.
What you do need, however, is RAM.
2GB is not enough unless you want to hit swapspace.
Hitting swapspace means going from > 3.2GBps to ~20MBps.
Swapping means lost effective time.

So if Apple upgrades the RAM capacity in the imac, pretty much any issue V might have with it goes away. It already has dual monitor capability and an adequate processor (also likely to be upgraded to Conroe at some point). I do think they're a little behind as far as max RAM goes but the alternative to upgrading that is essentially to offer the Mac Pro, as it is, but with a lesser processor -- something that most felt they would never do for reasons of economies of scale, and on that point, their educated guesses appear to have been correct.

If price would be everything, Dell wouldn't be riding the slippery slope towards financial hell - but they are.
Companies love Dell because it lets them custom tailor their computer solutions to their business needs.

I have mine, you have yours.
If you live in a reality where everybody has the same computing needs, well give me a call and I'll conform with the rest of the Soviet Union.

It's not that everybody has the same needs, it's that Apple of all companies can not be everything to everybody. They're in a unique situation that is not really comparable to Dell, having as they do a monopoly on their OS (with all its attendant pluses and minuses -- you can force those those who need OS X to pay more, but you have to go the extra mile to get people who are used to their already low-cost Windows solutions to make the enormous leap of switching platforms), and they seem to prefer exploiting that rather than trying to please everybody with a bazillion options, something that's rather expensive and risky to do when you have such a small sliver of the market to begin with. They're just not a commodity PC maker, and everything they've done in the last few years has reinforced that. Their philosophy now is "less is more", which should be glaringly obvious from the whole of their product line. Stop focusing on the perceived "hole" in their lineup and realize it's part of a bigger picture.
 
brianus said:
A desire -- not the same thing as a need. It has to be a big enough need for it to matter. I don't see the kinds of setups you describe as being common enough for Apple to consider them, or for any other company to consider Apple when the tasks such a setup are being used for are so generic (and therefore, already pretty much owned by Windows).
Point well taken, however if you want to gain mindshare and a share of the corporate money, you need to start somewhere.
The various creative departments found in a lot of companies love what they do with Macs, but if you don't keep pushing, it'll take a very very long time to reach your goal (mine's world domination, but that's probably not relevant at this stage).

brianus said:
So if Apple upgrades the RAM capacity in the imac, pretty much any issue V might have with it goes away. It already has dual monitor capability and an adequate processor (also likely to be upgraded to Conroe at some point). I do think they're a little behind as far as max RAM goes but the alternative to upgrading that is essentially to offer the Mac Pro, as it is, but with a lesser processor -- something that most felt they would never do for reasons of economies of scale, and on that point, their educated guesses appear to have been correct.
While a upgradable (more so than the current iteration, at least) iMac would go a long way to solve our particular needs, I'll have to question the reasoning behind tying people in to a *very* locked down peripheral setup.
While it has been working previously, the new customers Apple are trying to reach (hello? "And I'm a Mac" commercials) come from a world where with minor problems, you can hook up a friggin cesna to your generic PC setup.

Yes, the iMac is a "integrated solution"; but integrated isn't good enough!
Why did Apple release their first personal computer if there were already good-enough solutions available?
If I want to connect a 24" monitor to an iMac, I won't be able to do proper spanning (such has having a document covering both screens - but I could agree that that's a minor annoyance; depending on how you utilize your workspace).
As Apple is trying to cater to the people normally hanging out in their safe PC world, they need to take steps to ensure that people are comfortable in their new environment.
Among other things, it means that you should be able to connect your own keyboard, your own mice, your own monitors and what not.
Keyboards are a bloody glaring example of a step Apple need to take (and yes, I realize I'm sliding away on a tangent again!) - my MS 4000 Keyboard does not work "as advertised" (meaning \ is alt+shift+7, instead of what keyboards in my country has been displaying for the past 15 or so years).

I guess what I'm trying to say at this stage is that companies do not want one or two years of worth from their computers. They want five.
That means that I want/"need" something I can upgrade somewhat along the line - more memory, new harddrives, a bigger monitor; perhaps someone will be fired, and the next qualified person has a few special requirements?

brianus said:
They're just not a commodity PC maker, and everything they've done in the last few years has reinforced that. Their philosophy now is "less is more", which should be glaringly obvious from the whole of their product line. Stop focusing on the perceived "hole" in their lineup and realize it's part of a bigger picture.

While I'm not going to go Dvorak on you, I'll gladly say that Apple needs to take more big steps, instead of the gradual baby-steps.
The only real step they've taken recently was the start of the "I'm a PC" ads.
Intel transition means nothing; that was just the need for a new platform which would enable them to grow.

Interoperability - something that the Mac is *famous* for - is something required if you want to gain marketshare.
I have my habits (be they good or bad), I have my digital camera and I have my monitor.
Why can't Apple cater to the first need as well as the last two?

All in all, I applaud you for your well thought-out comments, but the masses who have money to spend want a headless Mac that'll last five years and four employees.
 
~Shard~ said:
Further to this, what if my display dies? The rest of the machine is perfectly fine, yet, apart from hooking up an external display, I'd need a new one. Vice versa, if my Mac dies (logic board, HDD, whatever) but the display is still fine, I'm expected to throw out a perfectly good display since I need to buy a new iMac?

True for every notebook. Why are people buying those?

Integrated out-of-the-box working iMac works for Apple now all these years. Why change that?
 
Erasmus said:
3500 US equates to 4600 AU.
Obviously he probably wants more than 2Gb RAM. Did I mention he's getting a Raptor HDD?

An extra 2Gb RAM costs an extra 1300 and the 30" screen will add 1600.

So as you can see, my initial statement is true. Apple have nothing that can compare with this.

Gamers don't need quad cpus, they want better GPUs.

Four cores is overkill (extremely expensive overkill) for most normal applications. A GPU can never supply enough power for any normal game, and no doubt Leopard and Vista will tax heavily on them.

"obviously he wants more than 2GB of RAM"? As I mentioned in my last post, if that's what you want, you basically want a Mac Pro, as-is, with a lesser processor and reduced cost. And the benefit for Apple is--?? Either they cannibalize their existing desktop line, with no benefit to them, or they cannibalize the Mac Pro, causing them to lose money on all those professionals who need OS X and can't settle for an iMac or mini. Or, more likely, g4murz run screaming when they realize that even if Apple did offer a headless Conroe, they will always be able to configure a generic PC for less than what Apple charges, particularly where they really gouge the customer (ie, RAM). And again, I simply cannot emphasize enough that anyone who can spend $3K on a computer, much less *ever* buy a 30" screen for any reason, is not representative of some huge demographic Apple's missing out on -- unless they're a pro or a company.

And, by the way, my estimate of 6G was accurate. In Australia, a quad 2Ghz with 2Gb RAM, stock HDD, the X1900 XT (Which is inferior to XTX) and the 23" screen costs 6,167.

Actually, your original estimate was "50% more" than the AU $4G your friend spent, so the Mac you specced out was nearly $2,000 less than you expected. Since I cannot compare the specs of his computer in detail (no, you never mentioned the RAM, "Raptor", display size/brand, or much else for that matter), it is impossible for me to say how each individual component stacks up between the PC and the Mac, but it is certainly safe to say that it's more than just the Quad Xeons that are the issue -- the RAM and the Apple (as opposed to third party) display have a lot to do with it too.

I do hope future versions of the Xeon don't have such ridiculous and expensive RAM requirements. That's not really Apple's fault though; you could get PowerMac G5 memory fairly cheaply from third parties..
 
rylin said:
As a great example, I give you "V" from my office.
V's doing business development, often having some 20 Excel documents open, as well as his mailclient and 10 - 20 websites.

V is not a power user.

V does not need a Mac Pro 2.0 or 2.66.
V can't use a iMac 20".
V most certainly can't use a Mac Mini.

What I'd *want* to get for him would be a "Mac" (sans "Pro").
The fabled headless mac, probably with a Conroe 2.4, 2GB of RAM and his beloved dual 24" Dell monitors.

Instead, he's running on a Dell Optiplex, Pentium D 3.2, 2GB of RAM and 2x24" monitors.
Total cost of his rig (including monitors)?
€2000

The imac supports an external display. He can have a 20" imac with 24" display attached. I fail to see how apple doesn't have him covered.

rylin said:
All in all, I applaud you for your well thought-out comments, but the masses who have money to spend want a headless Mac that'll last five years and four employees.

No, those masses want a cheaper Dell alternative. Why? Because they run on Windows and have no interest in OS X, and because Dell is ALWAYS going to be the cheapest option as long as they're the 800 lb. gorilla of the PC world.

Oh, and as for the gamers. I'm not saying they're not out there, but they're a pretty small market compared to computer buyers in general, and many serious gamers are going to build their own box no matter what you sell. Also, my 2 points are cumulative, not self-sufficient. There's some market for this box, but because the margins are low on it, it would have to be a big market for apple to care. Likewise, with high enough margins, apple could cater to a small market, but that would defeat the point of this headless imac.
 
QCassidy352 said:
The imac supports an external display. He can have a 20" imac with 24" display attached. I fail to see how apple doesn't have him covered.
When the resolution and size of the monitors differ, you'll have a hard time getting consistency across the workspace.


QCassidy352 said:
There's some market for this box, but because the margins are low on it, it would have to be a big market for apple to care. Likewise, with high enough margins, apple could cater to a small market, but that would defeat the point of this headless imac.
So, what about the mini?
Low margins, small market?

I'm saying it can be done, and probably should be.
If you don't agree; fine - I'll let you have your opinion, but I'm guessing that you'll probably agree that when Dell is slipping, it's time for Apple to do something.
That time is now.
 
CmdrLaForge said:
True for every notebook. Why are people buying those?

Becuase notebooks are portable solutions, not desktops which are more conducive to being upgradeable.

CmdrLaForge said:
Integrated out-of-the-box working iMac works for Apple now all these years. Why change that?

Not change it. Supplement it. Big difference. :cool:
 
rylin said:
While a upgradable (more so than the current iteration, at least) iMac would go a long way to solve our particular needs, I'll have to question the reasoning behind tying people in to a *very* locked down peripheral setup.
...
Yes, the iMac is a "integrated solution"; but integrated isn't good enough!
Why did Apple release their first personal computer if there were already good-enough solutions available?
If I want to connect a 24" monitor to an iMac, I won't be able to do proper spanning (such has having a document covering both screens - but I could agree that that's a minor annoyance; depending on how you utilize your workspace).

Could you describe what you mean by that? Is it just that the menubar gets in the way? I have a dual-monitor setup on my G4 and I have occasionally extended a document to cover both screens, excepting the space taken up by the menubar (rarely necessary but certainly doable in my setup). Is there something specific to the iMac that prevents this from working?

I guess what I'm trying to say at this stage is that companies do not want one or two years of worth from their computers. They want five.
That means that I want/"need" something I can upgrade somewhat along the line - more memory, new harddrives, a bigger monitor; perhaps someone will be fired, and the next qualified person has a few special requirements?

Yeah, but if you're only going to be buying once every five years, they want to make as much money from you as possible. And they want you coming back, not just to whichever PC maker offers the best price and expandability at that particular time that you must get a new PC, but to the *one* PC maker who offers OS X -- if they can make you dependent on it, they've got you by the balls, pretty much. Hence easy, flexible upgradeability is left to the Mac Pro. That said, I do wish the iMac and mini were physically *easier* to upgrade with RAM and HDD, but there's nothing stopping you from doing so if you have to (indeed, I have done so, and any corporate IT guy worth his salt should be able to as well). Besides, for most people, adding peripherals has become a matter of plugging the external doohickey they got at Best Buy into a USB port, not installing a PCI card. Up and down the product line, Macs have no issues with that.

So really, the only expandability issue I can see that rule out the iMac completely apply only to that class of consumers who need to install their own GPU, or need a monitor above 24". The latter, certainly, remains a relatively rare breed even amongst PC-folk (as much as I personally would like one). Apart from the inevitable ramping up of processor speeds, I see no reason why an iMac can't last four or five years if you want it to.

While I'm not going to go Dvorak on you, I'll gladly say that Apple needs to take more big steps, instead of the gradual baby-steps.
The only real step they've taken recently was the start of the "I'm a PC" ads.
Intel transition means nothing; that was just the need for a new platform which would enable them to grow.

Thanks for not going Dvorak, as I suspect the result would be unintelligible on an MS 4000 :rolleyes:

I certainly agree about Intel. But I'll put it this way -- I'd eventually like to upgrade to a 30" monitor. Right off the bat that makes me unusual, so it's not like they're going to design a Mac just for me. A mini or an iMac won't cut it, though the latter is for the most part fine specs-wise. To some of the folks on this thread, the conclusion drawn is that there's a hole in the lineup. Certainly makes sense from the "prosumer"'s perspective. That, however, is not the conclusion I think Apple would draw: In my situation, if I must have OS X + that peripheral, I must therefore at some point purchase one of their "Pro" models. Sucks for me, maybe, but good for Apple. That's the whole idea; their ad campaign isn't "Buy from Apple", but "Get a Mac". They're selling the platform and using their control of it to justify more limited (and for them, more profitable) hardware choices. And if they can get you thinking that way, that it's not just a choice between Apple and 80 gazillion other PC makers' offerings, but between their platform and the other one, then that strategy has worked. If people find Macs and PCs *too* interchangeable, then it fails. This seems just as true of their behavior when it comes to companies as consumers, even though you certainly can make a case (and have) that that's no way to gain marketshare. Nevertheless, I've seen no evidence that they want to sell to corporate customers just to compete with Dell on hardware. Even with something like the XServe, it's all about the OS and the software.

As Apple is trying to cater to the people normally hanging out in their safe PC world, they need to take steps to ensure that people are comfortable in their new environment.
Among other things, it means that you should be able to connect your own keyboard, your own mice, your own monitors and what not.
Keyboards are a bloody glaring example of a step Apple need to take (and yes, I realize I'm sliding away on a tangent again!) - my MS 4000 Keyboard does not work "as advertised" (meaning \ is alt+shift+7, instead of what keyboards in my country has been displaying for the past 15 or so years).

I agree there should not be glaring and unsolved issues with peripherals, though that seems less a matter of policy than lack of adequate attention from Apple. I was unaware 3rd party keyboards didn't work that well with Macs. Certainly for mice and monitors I've had no problems whatsoever with 3rd party stuff -- in fact, I've never used anything BUT 3rd party mice and monitors with my Macs. And it's not even stuff tailored for Macs either. Are you sure the keyboard issue's not just an oversight on Apple's part rather than a deliberate policy to give the short shrift to non-Apple peripherals? I always figured most of that stuff worked just fine, you just had to buy it yourself and ignore the BTO options Apple offers.

One can't say they've been entirely reticent to address the needs of switchers who bring with them their old habits, expectations, and hardware, though; for one thing, they've made the OS itself *much* more compatible with standards common to users of other operating systems (making .zip the default archive type, for example, rather than the execrable Stuffit; moving away from the old, weird, Classic Mac file/creator type system in favor of the more common filename-extension system; and other things), and of course, the whole OS being UNIX based makes it much more attractive and familiar to developer types (that is one of the main reasons I switched in the first place). The key here is that the things they've changed all help with interoperability between computers running different OS's, rather than just between "my old way of doing things" and "the Mac way". They haven't made things so comfortable for the new-to-Mac crowd that switching requires no changed habits or re-learning, because, think of it: if they did, switching *back* because this or that HP or Gateway was cheaper might be just as easy.

with minor problems, you can hook up a friggin cesna to your generic PC setup.

Hmmm.. I.. wouldn't recommend that, but ok.. :D
 
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