I agree completely, I was just trying to have an honest discussion, which seems to be getting really hard lately with die hards on both sides throwing nothing but rhetoric and empty specs around here.
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The Windows Tablet: Microsoft still doesn't get it.
- Thread starter *LTD*
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I agree completely, I was just trying to have an honest discussion, which seems to be getting really hard lately with die hards on both sides throwing nothing but rhetoric and empty specs around here.
That's so true, it's really hard in this place, and in the ipad forum it seems almost impossible. But to be fair I feel it lies more on the people that started frequenting these threads to bash and bait apple fans without bringing any half decent arguments to the table.
So one can get a bit defensive. I feel defensive here too, it's hard not too, with all that trash talking going on... I was just reading a guy with a a mac rumors demi god tag to his nick claiming the ipad won't run 50% of the sites on the web...I mean for crying out loud...
And all of a sudden flash has become the cutting edge technology that no one can do without and bad apple is keeping everyone from using...
I don't see any idea or anything right about this tablet. This is 2010 and this tablet (with Win 7) is behaving like a machine from the 80s.
I wonder when Microsoft is going to give up on windows as an OS and start developing something else from the ground up.
There isn't one.
Windows is really not that suited to be on a tablet. It is designed with a mouse and keyboard in mind, it is designed with a bigger screen in mind. It is designed with more powerful hardware in mind.
While there are some tacked on tablet features, that doesn't make it the preferred way to use it. If you really want a windows portable, get a decent laptop (not netbook).
If you want a tablet, you need (IMO) a more lightweight OS designed for smaller screens. At this point that looks like iPad or Android.
But the Archos 9 has a niche. It is perfect for the victims of checkbox marketing convinced they need a feature list, regardless of how badly implemented.
ROFL.
CGI+vapour.
Do you honestly think MS are capable of this when they can't even get their Mobile strategy right, not to mention barely push out a half-decent version of Windows in 6 years?? They aren't even done with WinMo 7, which, if they're lucky, will place them to somewhere near to where Apple was last year, if that.
But you can ask MS (or rather, Gizmodo?) if they'll sell you the video. Then you can have one, too.
If MS has no problem with its flagship product running on any and every POS hardware out there with zero regard for the User Experience, do you really think they'd release something like whatever that was in the video? Remember, this is Ballmer running the show.
Its a concept video from a design firm. IF MS were ever to create that, with the same UI and it was as smooth as the video makes it look, I'd buy one immediately. THAT concept is the companion device I've been dreaming about for years.
But again, its not real, not even vaporware, its from a design firm.
Edit: This is what really goes on in R&D labs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=049_U-0C9qU&feature=related
Actually Microsoft has a Tablet PC specific group that they recently shut down, oddly enough.
They also had the origami project that I think is still going on to make a great UMPC experience
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/umpc/default.mspx
I have a lot of tablets and a few UMPC's. The biggest conclusion I have come to is that Windows (which now includes tablet features if the hardware exists) is just not meant for UMPC's or tablets. It is simply too bloated.
I absolutely love my samsung q1 UMPC hardware wise. Software wise, it sucks. Interfacing with a Windows on a small screen doesn't work. The tablet part of Windows is poorly written and is an utter battery hog. Thus I have this nice piece of kit hardware that only has about 60-90 minutes of battery life with WiFi turned off. Thus at the end of the day, this $1800 rig really doesn't help with productivity since I am always tethered to an outlet right next to my Macbook pro.
Pen input actually works well if all you use in MS OneNote. Other than this, the regular OS is really kludgy in how it deals with pen input. The TIP that pops up it slow, buggy and send the CPU into 100% usage during use even on capable hardware.
The sad thing is that I purchased my first convertible tablet around 2002 and the tablet experience has been stagnant since then (with the exception of MS OneNote, the only bright spot).
This is why nobody even knows that MS even has tablets (since 2002-ish for that matter!). They simply sucked, and with the exception of a few dedicated markets, have never gained traction because the software experience is pretty crappy.
I have the Archos 9. It is exactly as the article described it, out of the box. What I was able to do with it though, is something you won't be able to do with the iPad. This is a plus.
I added more storage space, swapping out the 60gb hard drive for a 128gb SSD. I updated the OS to a slightly better version with more thorough tablet support. I tweaked the display to show a higher 1024 x 768 resolution. I also had it enlarge the icons, widen the slider bars, and enable swipes. I also turned on Speech control and handwriting input.
I now have countered every complaint the Article mentioned, and pushed Win7 to be even more input-friendly than it is even on my desktop PC.
BTW, the Archos 9 came with a WP, Spreadsheet, and presentation app.
I'm typing this with a bluetooth keyboard.
The Archos is propped up on it's built-in kickstand.
I'll be printing out this thread to my WiFi Canon Printer.
Yes, not every Archos 9 buyer will go to the trouble I did. They all could though. You won't be able to choose a better OS, upgrade the RAM, or tweak the UI on your iPad, even if you want to.
My point? Any Windows Tablet can be changed to work best for the person using it. Most will run Google's OS or Linux, or even Android if you want them to. Some will run OS-X. You get choices with the 9. You don't have to make them though.
Did I mention it plays Flash, even Youtube HD, fine?
I'll cut and paste this post to a notepad file, and save it on the USB thumb drive I have attached.
When finished, I'll connect my bluetooth headphones to listen to my music collection streaming from my network storage drive through winmediaplayer on the 9.
Later I might have a video skype call with my brother in West Virgina, assuming his power has come back on (big snowstorms there). Yes, the Archos 9 has a webcam.
Lastly, I'm using my Archos 9 right now. Please respond from your iPad when you've got one.
4D
I added more storage space, swapping out the 60gb hard drive for a 128gb SSD. I updated the OS to a slightly better version with more thorough tablet support. I tweaked the display to show a higher 1024 x 768 resolution. I also had it enlarge the icons, widen the slider bars, and enable swipes. I also turned on Speech control and handwriting input.
I now have countered every complaint the Article mentioned, and pushed Win7 to be even more input-friendly than it is even on my desktop PC.
BTW, the Archos 9 came with a WP, Spreadsheet, and presentation app.
I'm typing this with a bluetooth keyboard.
The Archos is propped up on it's built-in kickstand.
I'll be printing out this thread to my WiFi Canon Printer.
Yes, not every Archos 9 buyer will go to the trouble I did. They all could though. You won't be able to choose a better OS, upgrade the RAM, or tweak the UI on your iPad, even if you want to.
My point? Any Windows Tablet can be changed to work best for the person using it. Most will run Google's OS or Linux, or even Android if you want them to. Some will run OS-X. You get choices with the 9. You don't have to make them though.
Did I mention it plays Flash, even Youtube HD, fine?
I'll cut and paste this post to a notepad file, and save it on the USB thumb drive I have attached.
When finished, I'll connect my bluetooth headphones to listen to my music collection streaming from my network storage drive through winmediaplayer on the 9.
Later I might have a video skype call with my brother in West Virgina, assuming his power has come back on (big snowstorms there). Yes, the Archos 9 has a webcam.
Lastly, I'm using my Archos 9 right now. Please respond from your iPad when you've got one.
4D
Congrats, you (like I) are a tech geek. Now, will you acknowledge we are a small percentage of consumers, and an even smaller percentage of apple consumers?
I think the point is, simply how we are using the term "windows tablet" vs a "Microsoft tablet" as in one actually built by MS. Semantics is not missing the point, simply using different terminology.
To your last statement...
umm.. that's pretty open ended and not sure of the point?
If were just using the "future" as a time frame? Let's get creative!
Apple will build the best holodeck on the planet in the future, running a brand new human/machine interface no one has ever seen?!? so... /sarcasm
Easy to make blanket statements about the future based on no actual hardware or facts. Their is nothing out there to suggest or support that type of statement. We have to go with what's real, what's out now and what's at least in a working prototype. (HP) We are comparing Archos 9 to what we have seen in prototypes and at CES. HP tablet, Dell's 5" tablet, Asus, Leveno etc..
Finally to cap it all off, no one knows how successful the tablet market is or will be. It's tried to go mainstream for over a decade or two? and still hasn't caught on.
Your post supports every example of why a full OS on a tablet has never gone mainstream. Modify, replace, modify etc.. and finally it works how it should have out of the box!
Swapping the HDD for what it should have shipped with to make it fast enough to be usable... 550 + whatever you have to pay (guessing 300+?) for a new SSD. The buying public, like the 10's of millions of iPod touch owners, will never go to this length to get these types of tablets working well.
So how much did the upgrades cost? It sounds surprisingly like this link:
http://rittchard.wordpress.com/2010/01/15/archos-9-pctablet-first-impressions/
I spent around 5 hours last night working on my Tablet. I use the word working because it really did feel like work. I must have rebooted over 20 times over the course of the evening.
That it is crap out of the box and you spend large amounts of money and time making it semi usable isn't an advantage for most people. Still not sure why you set a 1024x600 display to 1024x768. Wishful thinking?
So now you have spent a lot of time and money and you still have machine that has an OS that is poorly suited for tablet operations. 99% of applications aren't made for touch input.
As far as youtube HD working well. I am not buying it. Changing SSD won't do it.
Here is Video of yet someone else testing youtube on the Archos 9:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C71g8cmZsAE
Abysmal on standard def youtube.
Paul Thurrot noted in the last Windows Weekly that even if Microsoft even managed to get this out the door, there was no way it would come close to looking like that.
My Archos 9 was $499, no shipping no tax. They are $549 now.
The 128gb SSD was $329. The 60gb HDD (70$) became a free upgrade for my Asus EEE. Net SSD upgrade cost = $259.
Win9 anytime upgrade = $80.
Asus 9 now with 128gb SSD cost me $838 ($899 at today's price). An ipad with 64gb SSD is $699. Another 64gb SSD for the iPad, if it could handle one, would cost an average of $215. Make that $914 for a 128gb iPad.
Semi Usable? Your words. Incorrect assumption.
1024 x 768? Because I could, and now anything that would fit on the ipad's screen will also fit on my Archos 9 screen, except of course in less space.
With the tweaks I made Win7 is no longer poorly suited for tablet operations. Those tweaks affect every Win7 program, allowing touch input where mouse clicks would have normally been required, increasing icon and slider bar sizes to make them more finger friendly.
Youtube performance is partly a function of your web connection speed. I have slow DSL, and even my desktop drops a few frames when watching HD youtube videos. I've learned to pause the video and let it cache up to get decent playback. Non-HD videos play the same (fine) on my 9 as they do on my desktop. If I download the video (using firefox and an add-on) and play them directly off the SSD no frames are dropped. I can (and do) play DVDs off my network server with no lost frames using VLC media player. My in-house WiFi is faster than my internet connection.
The big deal is that I've got a full desktop OS, optimized for touch input, running on a portable tablet. Because the OS has been optimized, EVERY app running on it can also be controlled with touch inputs. I have the choice of on-screen, USB, or bluetooth keyboards to use if I need one. It's not a blazingly fast device, but I don't expect or need it to be. It handles my media fine. It handles my email fine. It handles the web fine. It handles solitare and mahjong and Sudoku fine. There is a weather widget and a stock widget and an RSSfeed widget. I can read ebooks. I can prepare a presentation. I can print to any printer in my house. I can access share folders on any other PC in the house. I can multitask. Other than playing 3D shooters it lets me do anything my desktop PC can do, all but on a smaller screen using touch instead of the mouse.
I'm not knocking the iPad. It's just not designed to do what a Win7 Tablet can do. I'll likely buy one and use it much like I use my ipod Touch now, all but BIGGER.
good post dude. I figured it would just take a little OS tweaking to get it right. I'll do some more research on it and see if punk ass Fry's got a display model to play with. The archos will mos def be a better pair with my iphone IMO.
Not everyone will have an Asus EEE lying around to use the HD. You would have to ebay the HD, and you would be lucky to get half what you are claiming here and it would be a hassle. So I dissagree, you can't automatically discount old parts on your upgrade unless the supplier does it for you.
So real price today: $549 + $329 + $80 = $958
Uneeded and doesn't exist. iPad for me is a house surfing/reader. I am perfectly happy with 16G. A Kindle has what, 3G? So 16G reasonable and fast: $500.
Geez, serious iPad screen envy? Setting a 1024x600 screen to 1024x768, doesn't give you equal screen real estate, Now everything you look at is at a non native resolution introducing artifacts. Not only that but you have messed up the aspect ratio of everything, squeezing it. This is just plain nutty.
Except the Video I posted, clearly showed they were ahead on buffering and it was still choking. Probably doesn't have the CPU power to buffer and play at the same time.
Except that it isn't optimized for touch. It's as optimized as windows gets, which isn't optimized at all. It is still a tacked on afterthought. Merely substituting touch for mouse clicks in mouse designed applications is not touch optimized. Touch optimized is designed for touch applications.
You still have a mediocre touch experience, but you also have an extremely mediocre Windows PC experience still running on craptacular hardware (for windows) Slow Atom processor, slow integrated graphics, 1GB of memory.
If you actually need full windows capability you would be much better off just buying a decent laptop, for similar money you could have a kick ass laptop.
For $925 you could get an HP 4710s. 17" 1600x900 screen, 2.1GHz Core Duo, 3GB DDR, 320GB HD, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4330, and MUCH more... This is actually usable windows hardware.
Windows tablets have been failing for years because you essential are paying for a mediocre touch experience coupled with a mediocre windows experience. Most people recognize, you are better off using windows as intended on HW that actually has the performance to run it.
Sorry, not possible with a native 1024 x 600 display.
You can't even display HD 720 video natively.
Yes, I know what you did, but the way you say it is completely inaccurate. That is unless you replaced the display with an new one.