Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Flint Ironstag

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Bloomberg article.

As for new Mac Pro hardware, there were two additional models developed by Apple that never saw the light of day: J170 and J190. The former was a new Intel Corp. Mac Pro (yes, even when Apple was making its own silicon) to address certain uses. The latter was an M3 Ultra version that was supposed to launch alongside the M3 Ultra Mac Studio in early 2025. As for the future, I don’t anticipate Apple bringing back the Mac Pro anytime soon — if ever. New Mac Studios with M5 Ultra chips, meanwhile, are coming as early as this fall.

"to address certain uses..." Let your imaginations run wild. What do you think the specs of this Mac Pro would've been? Any chance for Nvidia support? šŸ˜‚
 
Zero chance for NVidia support; that ship sailed long ago, and tensions have not eased. There was never going to be a circumstance wherein Apple signed NVidia drivers, and I'll wager that their deal with AMD included an exclusivity contract for better pricing.

I remember that Apple had promised (for a given value of 'promise' for Apple, ie, 'bugger-all') that there would be "one more generation of Mac Pro with Intel) after the 2019. I remember thinking it plausible because of the MPX power delivery in the 2019, which I thought was brilliant - no extra cables to provide additional power; just plug and play. I was really hoping there would be a change in the standard of PCIe power delivery because of that connecter, and it seemed like such a cool idea to only survive a single iteration.

Alas, Apple screwed us all with the insult that was the Apple Silicon Mac Pro and its eight PCIe slots for...storage. And less than 1/10th maximum RAM capacity. ...which was also shared with the on-die GPU. Eugh. Talk about ending things with a whimper and not a bang.

I know that Intel chips had/have serious power consumption problems, to say nothing of all the baked-in architectural flaws that got exposed during that time frame, but I would have really loved one final Intel machine capable of expansion. I bought my 2019 Mac Pro off of another user here, and it's been the workhorse of my house ever since. Windows, macOS, Linux (of varying flavors)...it can do it all. And it does it well. And it still surpasses my M4 Max Macbook Pro, which is pretty much maxed the hell out, even if only just.

Apple, once again, does its power users dirty. But what do they care? They've got iPhones to carry the market and their bottom line.
 
I remember that Apple had promised (for a given value of 'promise' for Apple, ie, 'bugger-all') that there would be "one more generation of Mac Pro with Intel) after the 2019.
Tim Cook said, "in fact we got some intel based macs, in the pipeline"
WWDC 2020 Special Event Keynote — Apple;

two year transition.jpg


"Some Intel based macs" caused many to expect another Mac Pro. I believed that as well, a couple of years.

The iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2020) was released on 4 August 2020. It had the T2 chip.
And it had soldered SSD modules šŸ™

T2 macs.jpg
 
The biggest issue with the Apple silicon Mac Pro is lack of PCIe lanes, no PCie GPU support or upgradable RAM.

Apparently M5 Ultra with Mac Studio will have up to 1.5TB RAM so that takes care of that i guess....but still NVIDIA is king for GPUs.
 
The biggest issue with the Apple silicon Mac Pro is lack of PCIe lanes, no PCie GPU support or upgradable RAM.

Apparently M5 Ultra with Mac Studio will have up to 1.5TB RAM so that takes care of that i guess....but still NVIDIA is king for GPUs.
...Nevermind that the 1.5TB of RAM will be priced roughly equivalent to the GDP of Belgium...
 
  • Like
Reactions: retta283
"to address certain uses..." Let your imaginations run wild. What do you think the specs of this Mac Pro would've been?
Probably just a routine spec update. CPU upgraded to whatever the then-latest version of the Xeon-W was. Maybe PCIe Gen 4. Wheels 2.0 now $1000 for a pack of 3. Nothing to get excited about...

The "certain uses" were most likely users with specialist PCIe cards (see next comment).

Alas, Apple screwed us all with the insult that was the Apple Silicon Mac Pro and its eight PCIe slots for...storage.

It wasn't really a successor to the 2019 Mac Pro - calling it that was probably Apple's big mistake. It was really a "Mac Studio PCIe edition". I suspect it was aimed at users who still depended on specialist "legacy" PCIe cards - storage was only one option, but more likely candidates would be things like accelerators/audio interfaces for ProTools, video capture or specialist networking cards... The 2023 MP gave them another few years to move to Thunderbolt options. The PCIe capability may have been pathetic by 2019 MP standards, but it was better than (expensive) Thunderbolt PCIe enclosures.

There's a list of Thunderbolt supported cards on Sonnet's website, which is indicative of the sort of cards people need(ed) to plug into Macs - mainly, I suspect, because they already had the cards and weren't ready to switch workflow:


Apple, once again, does its power users dirty. But what do they care?
Well, users have had since 2012 (when they started to neglect the classic Mac Pro and even discontinued it in the EU rasther than fit a fan guard to meet a new reg) to get that message. Actual pro users need to know that they'll still be able to buy something up-to-date but still backwards-compatible in year 3 of a 5 year project - not have some massive paradigm shift (like the Trashcan) forced on them.

Its pretty clear that they planned to replace the trashcan with the iMac Pro in 2017 and were stopped by some internal schism or a revolt by key partners/customers. Then they kinda went mad with the 2019 and priced out half of their Mac Pro customer base. All they needed to do in 2017 (or before that, as soon as they saw that the trashcan was a dead end) was pick up the phone to Foxconn and have a container-load of "official Hackintoshes" in nice premium-looking cases on the next ship from China - which would have kept the Mac Pro ticking over until Apple Silicon changed the story.

The really bizarre thing was that they bothered to develop things like the MPX slots and stupidly expensive 3D milled front panels/dust magnets when, by 2019, they must have known that Apple Silicon was in the pipeline.

The problem with the whole late Intel Mac era is that Apple were just making x86 PC clones with nice trackpads and a built in MacOS security dongle. Ultimately, the 2019 MP was just an implementation of Intel's new-generation Xeon W processors. If you needed anything like that level of power there was a vast choice of generic PC hardware that could be combined to make a system tailor made to your needs - unless you were locked in to a bit of Mac-only software. What was telling was that all of the benchmark claims on Apple's website were comparing with 6-year-old Trashcans or iMac Pros rather than any contemporary PC hardware.

Apple Silicon changed that and gave Apple something that would distinguish its tablets, laptops and SFF systems (which account for the vast majority of Apple's non-iPhone hardware sales) from the competition - and also solved many of the problems with the Trashcan concept. The price of that was that when it came to making modular PCIe tower workstations, Apple Silicon was as much use as a chocolate teapot.


The biggest issue with the Apple silicon Mac Pro is lack of PCIe lanes, no PCie GPU support or upgradable RAM.
...but the biggest advantages of Apple Silicon are its power-efficient integrated GPU/NPU/Media engine sharing unified, high-bandwidth LPDDR RAM mounted on the package for the shortest possible traces - and it's shedload of on-die USB4/TB interfaces. That's what gives MacBooks and Minis the edge over the competition, that's why people have been buying Minis and Studios for local LLM work where 64-128G of unified RAM beats having a ton of separate system RAM but liimited VRAM on the dGPU. Apple need pro software developers to optimise for Metal and Apple Silicon GPU/NPU so that the benefits trickle down to the MBP, Mini and Studio.

Let's say Apple gave people the "faster horses" they'd been asking for - an Apple Silicon Mac Pro with DDR5 RAM and support for the latest NVIDIA PCIe GPUs (even when the rest of the industry is swimming towards more Studio-like machines) then it's performance on things like LLM training and 3D would be... well, no better than the same NVIDIA GPUs in a Threadripper/Epyc box that cost half as much and could run legacy x86 code. Not to mention that the only way that Apple Silicon could deliver that RAM and PCIe bandwidth without Apple developing a whole new die was via something like the Extreme which meant quadding-up the iGPUs, NPUs and media engines that you weren't going to use. Meanwhile the legendary ARM power savings aren't really going to matter once you plug in a brace of NVIDIA space heaters.

The 2023 Mac Pro - outside the niche that want to keep their ProTools accelerators or Fibrechannel cards for another 3 years - was basically Apple coughing, looking at its watch and hoping they don't have to resort to offering to get people their coats.
 
@theluggage ā€Its pretty clear that they planned to replace the trashcan with the iMac Pro in 2017 and were stopped by some internal schism or a revolt by key partners/customersā€¦ā€

That period in time has the ring of Phil Schiller preparing his next ā€˜Can’t innovate my ass’ moment, and having much more access to Tim C’s ear…

By early/mid 2017, when this happened, the nascent Apple Silicon dev team probably had sight more of future problems to solve, rather than obvious solutions that Tim C could ā€˜bet the firm on’, so Tim being Tim, and not the visionary Steve Jobs, he let the Mac Pro project continue to fruition…
So ā€œthey kinda went mad with the 2019 and priced out half of their Mac Pro customer base...ā€
 
Last edited:
Moderator Note:

Also see the discussion in the news thread:

 
  • Like
Reactions: owbp
P
...but the biggest advantages of Apple Silicon are its power-efficient integrated GPU/NPU/Media engine sharing unified, high-bandwidth LPDDR RAM mounted on the package for the shortest possible traces - and it's shedload of on-die USB4/TB interfaces. That's what gives MacBooks and Minis the edge over the competition, that's why people have been buying Minis and Studios for local LLM work where 64-128G of unified RAM beats having a ton of separate system RAM but liimited VRAM on the dGPU. Apple need pro software developers to optimise for Metal and Apple Silicon GPU/NPU so that the benefits trickle down to the MBP, Mini and Studio.

Let's say Apple gave people the "faster horses" they'd been asking for - an Apple Silicon Mac Pro with DDR5 RAM and support for the latest NVIDIA PCIe GPUs (even when the rest of the industry is swimming towards more Studio-like machines) then it's performance on things like LLM training and 3D would be... well, no better than the same NVIDIA GPUs in a Threadripper/Epyc box that cost half as much and could run legacy x86 code. Not to mention that the only way that Apple Silicon could deliver that RAM and PCIe bandwidth without Apple developing a whole new die was via something like the Extreme which meant quadding-up the iGPUs, NPUs and media engines that you weren't going to use. Meanwhile the legendary ARM power savings aren't really going to matter once you plug in a brace of NVIDIA space heaters.

The 2023 Mac Pro - outside the niche that want to keep their ProTools accelerators or Fibrechannel cards for another 3 years - was basically Apple coughing, looking at its watch and hoping they don't have to resort to offering to get people their coats.

Yes all correct, hence why it doesnt make sense for Apple to change some of their business model just to please 1% of the Mac Pro user base when similar experience can be had with a Mac Studio.

Also since Apple started competing in the AI/GPU space against NVIDIA, also doesn't make sense to support them long term.
 
It does not take a genius to figure out what the J170 would have been. Since the 2019 is the J160 and the 2022 is the J180, figure it happened in the middle. When? Rumors hit their maximum volume around wwdc 2021. So what would have made sense? Well, Intel announced a replacement Xeon series for the W-32xx series in April 2021 -- the Ice Lake W-33xx series, and they shipped in July. Would have bumped us up 4 to 10 cores, PCIe 4, and 8-channel DDR4-3200 DRAM, Max 4 TB. Those changes alone would have made it worth it. I'd have bought one on announcement.

AMD would have been happy too as the RX 7000 series was obviously in the pipeline. We'd have probably gotten support for that at least. Also, Apple could have bumped the 6900-based cards to the 6950 in the interim for a minor performance bump.

As to what stopped Apple? Well, it wasn't the completion of the transition from Intel -- that was still a year away. My guess is they couldn't get the PCIe 4 slots working, since they didn't really have them working properly on the M2 Mac Pros in 2022. And any delays to fix the issue(s) probably stopped them cold. When they missed WWDC 2021, it was probably doomed by the end of the summer. So it probably died 5 years ago when engineering delays meant the bean counters won the argument and it was cancelled.
 
Last edited:
Somebody shared this in another post, but there was an article with a rumor about this back during the transition: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/07/26/mac-pro-2022-intel-ice-lake-xeon-chips/

Maybe Gurman was actually right, at the time I didn't believe they'd even investigate it. Definitely kind of a shame that we never got it because it would've been a nice bump up. The only drag for me with the 2019 MP is that tyrannical control over boot drives that T2 imposes meaning if you don't have a paired Apple part you're hosed, unacceptable for a workstation computer. Hopefully someday somebody figures out a way around it because I can see these 2019s becoming more valuable once the current selloff period is over, and these parts becoming more scarce. If there had been another gen at least we would've had more modules around...
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.