This would be a big blessing if it turned out to be true. I'm not going to attempt this until I have everything I need in place. So it might be a week or so before get there.
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Thought I'd change the Mac Mini processor
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This would be a big blessing if it turned out to be true. I'm not going to attempt this until I have everything I need in place. So it might be a week or so before get there.
OUt of context, that's the most befuddling thing I've read today. Ah, you crazy tech kids. Carry on...
I think you are misunderstanding what a Micro FCBGA is. It's a chip that has flat pads underneath.
For which you attach solder balls to like so:
http://www.pc-erfahrung.de/fileadmin/Daten/Bilder/Prozessoren/FCBGABottom.jpg
Using a BGA stencil similar to this:
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/219274...e_8_0_3_0_35_0_4_0_45_0_5_0_55_0_6_0_76mm.jpg
And then solder directly to the motherboard using one of these:
http://www.research-intl.com/products/chipflo.gif
The resulting surface between the chip and the motherboard looks like this:
http://www.caltexsci.com/images/Hirox/bga_sc3.jpg
Epoxy is used to hold the corners and sides of the chip to the board to help prevent boardflex on BGA chips that require some form of active heat dissipation. Otherwise the force of heatsink pushing on the chip can cause the solder contacts to develop micro fissures and break. Heres a good read describing the process: http://www.priorartdatabase.com/IPCOM/000146375/
The removal of this chip is one thing. You can probably get it off with a $25 heatgun from a hardware store *possibly* without killing the chip or the board. Actually attaching a processor is a whole other story. It requires years of experience, education, and above all tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment to do it right (see the picture of the oven I attached above).
A word of advice, don't destroy your 2.26 board. It just isn't possible to replace the processor on these things.
For which you attach solder balls to like so:
http://www.pc-erfahrung.de/fileadmin/Daten/Bilder/Prozessoren/FCBGABottom.jpg
Using a BGA stencil similar to this:
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/219274...e_8_0_3_0_35_0_4_0_45_0_5_0_55_0_6_0_76mm.jpg
And then solder directly to the motherboard using one of these:
http://www.research-intl.com/products/chipflo.gif
The resulting surface between the chip and the motherboard looks like this:
http://www.caltexsci.com/images/Hirox/bga_sc3.jpg
Epoxy is used to hold the corners and sides of the chip to the board to help prevent boardflex on BGA chips that require some form of active heat dissipation. Otherwise the force of heatsink pushing on the chip can cause the solder contacts to develop micro fissures and break. Heres a good read describing the process: http://www.priorartdatabase.com/IPCOM/000146375/
The removal of this chip is one thing. You can probably get it off with a $25 heatgun from a hardware store *possibly* without killing the chip or the board. Actually attaching a processor is a whole other story. It requires years of experience, education, and above all tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment to do it right (see the picture of the oven I attached above).
A word of advice, don't destroy your 2.26 board. It just isn't possible to replace the processor on these things.
There's also the issue that Micro-FCBGA has 479 balls and Micro-FCPGA has 478 pins.
They are both subsets of socket P, but because of the different pin numbers the wiring may be different.
As jwhazel said, even if you were replacing it with another Micro-FCBGA processor putting it in place is far from easy.
They are both subsets of socket P, but because of the different pin numbers the wiring may be different.
As jwhazel said, even if you were replacing it with another Micro-FCBGA processor putting it in place is far from easy.
With all the members here, somebody has both the knowledge and money to pull this off. It's not as if they are trying to send somebody back to the moon.
Just checked a Socket P that apple used in Gen 2 Mini at the Mac repair store. It had 479 M wrote on it. also it wasn't soldered in. It also rested on an array. I didn't buy the part because they wanted $40 bucks for the dead board. If I had I would have checked to see if the socket just snapped onto the logic board. I think its doable but still need to confirm a few things first. I think the FCBGA is maybe just an easier socket type setup because it removes an extra part (the socket) and saves cost. Like I said it's not about the money, but it seems some people just refuse to hear me. I'll get the Socket P when I'm sure I can separate it from the old and reattach it to the new.From Intel
Micro-FCBGA
Micro-FCBGA (Flip Chip Ball Grid Array) package for surface mount boards consists of a die placed face-down on an organic substrate. An epoxy material surrounds the die, forming a smooth, relatively clear fillet. Instead of using pins, the packages use small balls, which acts as contacts for the processor. The advantage of using balls instead of pins is that there are no leads that bend. The package uses 479 balls, which are .78 mm in diameter. Different from Micro-PGA, the micro-FCPGA includes capacitors on the top side.
ZOMG! This person just said it was impossible! Now you HAVE to do it!
Seriously, though, if you're able to determine a repeatable way to remove the old processor without a ton of fuss/muss/risk, there would be a ton of people interested in your method.
If you do attempt this, PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE document the process with lots and lots of pictures.
Good luck!
If it can't be done it can't be done.....I'm trying to determine that though and unless you can pull some better proof, I'm going to keep searching for an answer that satisfies me.
Is the clock multiplier located on the logic board or the processor? Also, can you change the multiplier or does the CPU do that automatically? Anyone?
I had a friend, as practically everyone in the Silicon Valley does, who can solder a storm using jeweler's loops or whatever they can come up with and work on motherboards that are considered far too tiny or intricate.
I think one group to ask would be the NT Engineers Association in the San Jose area. There are a lot of techie brains there. Also U.C. Santa Cruz has a Computer Engineering MS/PhD program that has a lot of fine minds who may be able to be of assistance.
Anyway OP, good luck with your experimenting. It may not be possible, but how would you know without extensive research? You may be the first to pull it off and if you do, like others said, let us know how you do it. Even if few of us have the skills or knowledge you do, it's fun to see people do stuff like your project.
Innovation sometimes comes from small projects like yours. Never stop being curious.
I think one group to ask would be the NT Engineers Association in the San Jose area. There are a lot of techie brains there. Also U.C. Santa Cruz has a Computer Engineering MS/PhD program that has a lot of fine minds who may be able to be of assistance.
Anyway OP, good luck with your experimenting. It may not be possible, but how would you know without extensive research? You may be the first to pull it off and if you do, like others said, let us know how you do it. Even if few of us have the skills or knowledge you do, it's fun to see people do stuff like your project.
Innovation sometimes comes from small projects like yours. Never stop being curious.
Keep reading...
If you had some experience with the BGA rework stations, you likely could do it. But on the chips using epoxy as a mechanical aid to protect the solder joints due to the high pressure heat sink installation. Things get trickier.
I'm not convinced completely that it is indeed soldered. I'll intend to find out though.
I like your moxie. I hope this works out for you and rewards your chutzpah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array
In a BGA, the pins are replaced by balls of solder stuck to the bottom of the package. The device is placed on a PCB that carries copper pads in a pattern that matches the solder balls. The assembly is then heated, either in a reflow oven or by an infrared heater, causing the solder balls to melt. Surface tension causes the molten solder to hold the package in alignment with the circuit board, at the correct separation distance, while the solder cools and solidifies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_FCBGA
The processor is affixed to the motherboard by soldering the balls to the motherboard. This allows for a much thinner CPU/interface profile than a pin grid array socket arrangement, but the micro-FCBGA chip is not removable from the motherboard.
Intel doesn't say that they aren't soldered, they just don't go into that detail.
You have 3 problems 1.) Intel doesn't make a micro-FCBGA quad core for direct surface mount 2.) Nobody (currently) makes micro-FCBGA to micro FCPGA converter socket. You can't "snap" the sockets onto the board 3.) You're going to (presumably) need to make modifications to the microcode in the EFI to accept a new processor. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I suspect it will hang at trying to build a device tree with an unidentified cpu.
I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade. I'm all for tinkering with electronics. I would be thrilled to be able to upgrade the mini's processor. I'm just trying to bring a sense of realism to this project. If you understand the scope of what's involved then full speed ahead
In a BGA, the pins are replaced by balls of solder stuck to the bottom of the package. The device is placed on a PCB that carries copper pads in a pattern that matches the solder balls. The assembly is then heated, either in a reflow oven or by an infrared heater, causing the solder balls to melt. Surface tension causes the molten solder to hold the package in alignment with the circuit board, at the correct separation distance, while the solder cools and solidifies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_FCBGA
The processor is affixed to the motherboard by soldering the balls to the motherboard. This allows for a much thinner CPU/interface profile than a pin grid array socket arrangement, but the micro-FCBGA chip is not removable from the motherboard.
Intel doesn't say that they aren't soldered, they just don't go into that detail.
The cpu's and even the sockets are soldered into place using precision laser guided instruments and computer controlled temperature profiles. This is absolutely positively not something that can be soldered by hand. Lets assume real quick that you can find someone who will give you access to one of these: http://cgi.ebay.com/BTU-Paragon-150...5|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1309|301:1|293:1|294:50
You have 3 problems 1.) Intel doesn't make a micro-FCBGA quad core for direct surface mount 2.) Nobody (currently) makes micro-FCBGA to micro FCPGA converter socket. You can't "snap" the sockets onto the board 3.) You're going to (presumably) need to make modifications to the microcode in the EFI to accept a new processor. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I suspect it will hang at trying to build a device tree with an unidentified cpu.
I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade. I'm all for tinkering with electronics. I would be thrilled to be able to upgrade the mini's processor. I'm just trying to bring a sense of realism to this project. If you understand the scope of what's involved then full speed ahead
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array
In a BGA, the pins are replaced by balls of solder stuck to the bottom of the package. The device is placed on a PCB that carries copper pads in a pattern that matches the solder balls. The assembly is then heated, either in a reflow oven or by an infrared heater, causing the solder balls to melt. Surface tension causes the molten solder to hold the package in alignment with the circuit board, at the correct separation distance, while the solder cools and solidifies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_FCBGA
The processor is affixed to the motherboard by soldering the balls to the motherboard. This allows for a much thinner CPU/interface profile than a pin grid array socket arrangement, but the micro-FCBGA chip is not removable from the motherboard.
Intel doesn't say that they aren't soldered, they just don't go into that detail.
The cpu's and even the sockets are soldered into place using precision laser guided instruments and computer controlled temperature profiles. This is absolutely positively not something that can be soldered by hand. Lets assume real quick that you can find someone who will give you access to one of these: http://cgi.ebay.com/BTU-Paragon-150...5|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1309|301:1|293:1|294:50
You have 3 problems 1.) Intel doesn't make a micro-FCBGA quad core for direct surface mount 2.) Nobody (currently) makes micro-FCBGA to micro FCPGA converter socket. You can't "snap" the sockets onto the board 3.) You're going to (presumably) need to make modifications to the microcode in the EFI to accept a new processor. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I suspect it will hang at trying to build a device tree with an unidentified cpu.
I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade. I'm all for tinkering with electronics. I would be thrilled to be able to upgrade the mini's processor. I'm just trying to bring a sense of realism to this project. If you understand the scope of what's involved then full speed ahead
Well, I follow some of the links cited on Wiki and they didn't led to the info exactly as described, it was the wiki author's interpretation. Granted it probably is soldered but I wish you would spare me the pompous attitude. A bunch of PHDs just cost the tax payers 100s of billions of dollars and likely millions of jobs. I could do without the "You need a PHD to do this stuff". Did you know Thomas Edison did have much formal education?
"You're going to (presumably) need to make modifications to the microcode in the EFI to accept a new processor." This is one of the questions I had earlier.
Look now that I've seen an older board in person + this info about solder, I'm inclined to say it's not possible. Pretty ****** thing for Apple to not put at least a 2.4GHz with 6MB L2 as the top end Mini.
You're confusing the die with the chip package. The die is the tiny fingernail sized cpu chip that is surrounded by epoxy inside the larger CPU package, wires lead from it through the CPU package to the pins or pads on the bottom.
The paragraph you cited is not talking about how the CPU package is held to the motherboard, it's talking about how the die is epoxied into the CPU package.
The paragraph you cited is not talking about how the CPU package is held to the motherboard, it's talking about how the die is epoxied into the CPU package.
The corners ...
From the MacBook 2008 take apart on kodawarisan
Edit: Don't think that is what is referenced by Intel, since it showed up after Intel wrote that and all the XBox and GPU solder problems occurred.
The corners ...
From the MacBook 2008 take apart on kodawarisan
Edit: Don't think that is what is referenced by Intel, since it showed up after Intel wrote that and all the XBox and GPU solder problems occurred.
Yup, I was only referring to the use of that part of the paragraph as proof that the CPU wasn't soldered to the board when it was actually referencing the cpu die and not the package. Epoxy is used to supplement BGA chips as you mentioned earlier.
Wow, seriously? no one was being pompous and I see no reason to attack people who were in fact going out of their way to explain something which you clearly did not understand.
You should be thanking them, they just politely saved you close to a thousand dollars.
PS. I'm no expert or anything, but I think the majority of the people involved in the finance industry would have MBAs or maybe MFins, but hey if you want to just generically hate on people with a higher education I'm sure calling them all PHDs will work out fine.
You are definitely right.
But let's see what the OP can do once he/she attacks the issue.
I don't think that the OP's project will be easy. And it may not be possible without great expense.
I just know a couple of people from grad school that might be able to help him so I sent him the link from UCSC. There are some there who are grad students specifically studying processor architecture. What is great about them, vs nearby Stanford or Cal, is that UCSC is far more accessible, and the people there will bend over backwards to help an outsider. They don't have the world famous reputation of the other two schools in high tech/science, but they still have a lot of brainpower and talent.
And you don't have to be a PhD or grad student on this subject, but that can't hurt. However, there are plenty of college dropouts, especially in the Silicon Valley who have done very well and they are today's Edisons. One was deemed the "best" inventor of the 20th century by Time Magazine, among others, and he does pretty well in everything, except dancing.
He partnered with another then college dropout to form Apple.I think my otherwise unremarkable South Bay Area where I grew up was built on a combination of PhDs, college graduates, and high school graduates who all shared a common vision in making the impossible, or improbable happen. Not too long ago, these were orchards with a very small handful of high tech businesses and there was a great need to make something happen, and fast. The scope of what is here cannot be merely understood from movies or books. You have to actually live here or spend a lot of time here to see just how many people did amazing things in high tech and hear their naysayer stories from "rational" people. I have heard amazing things from PhD students as far as innovations concerning processors as well as from a guy who almost had a bachelor's in history, but learned his ability to modify computers and solder very small stuff in the US Army special forces group, SFOD-D, where they were asked to do the nearly impossible. The TV shows the A-Team and The Unit, are very loosely based on that group. There is talent in schools, industry, specialists the military, and elsewhere, which is far more than most of us will ever dare to imagine. Let's not get hasty and call the OP's project a wash before he/she has even started.
Just like Los Angeles has a lot of people in the movie industry, San Jose and the South Bay Area has a lot of people in high tech, including innovators who have changed the world. You cannot go a week without going to the grocery store, Macy's, or Starbucks without running into one of them. The local Valley geniuses have hangouts where they unwind where you can hear them talk about all of their latest developments like a certain bar in multimedia gulch or places like "K-house". BTW, sorry OP if I sound like a naysayer, too, but I will tell you those two places if you PM me. He he, the geeks I know would kill me if I told them where they like to hang out, and it's safe to let the rest of the world think they all hang out at Sci-fi conventions.
I don't think the OP has an easy task at hand, and if anything we are all making him more determined to succeed.
My guess is that he may NOT get the processor out and replace it, but learn many things he never knew about computers and get some new ideas on innovation.
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Wow! What a great thread (minus that brief spell of gnashing of some teeth). I've been tinkering with the idea of upgrading the CPU in my new generation Mini too. Sorry got nothing hi-tech to add since I had more questions than time to research for answers.
I do wish there'd be more threads like this. Thanks to the OP and others, no matter their conclusions.
EVP
Wow! What a great thread (minus that brief spell of gnashing of some teeth). I've been tinkering with the idea of upgrading the CPU in my new generation Mini too. Sorry got nothing hi-tech to add since I had more questions than time to research for answers.
I do wish there'd be more threads like this. Thanks to the OP and others, no matter their conclusions.
EVP