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I recall reading that Apple got TB at least several months before the others, even a year according to some analysts. I would expect PC with TB in H2 2011, but I think most OEMs are already fine with USB 3.0 offerings. In the end, TB doesn't provide that much for an average end-user when compared with USB 3.0.
Actually it does, but the average consumer is too ignorant to know the difference. Just like USB2 vs. Firewire.

USB operates in PIO mode, and having been originally designed as a replacement for the serial port, parallel port, and PS/2 kbd/mouse ports, the protocol is horribly inefficient for bulk data transfer (i.e. hard drives). With USB2, you can barely reach 50% of the theoretical maximum speed, even on the fastest computers.

Firewire, SATA, and now Thunderbolt all operate in DMA mode. They bypass the host CPU for faster throughput and lower latency. They are also very efficient at bulk data transfer, having been designed for exactly that purpose. DMA mode also means the attached devices are driver-less, for greater compatibility and ease of use. Firewire, SATA, and Thunderbolt all can achieve 95%+ of their theoretical maximum speed.

Wait until the benchmarks start flowing, you will see that Thunderbolt outperforms USB 3 by a significant margin in real world transfer speeds. But sadly, just like USB2 vs Firewire, ignorant joe consumer doesn't understand the difference and doesn't care, so he chooses USB because it costs a few bucks less.
 
Even if a TB PCIe card was available tomorrow for the Mac Pro, would it matter?

The only peripherals on the horizon to connect to it appear to be overpriced RAID enclosures (which can't possibly use the bandwidth unless loaded with SSDs), and (guessing here) a refreshed Apple display (to eliminate a cable for MBP users).

For now, just get a cheap eSATA setup if you need more storage capacity than your internal 6 drive bays allow. :p
 
Despite the talk of Sandy Bridge... even TB on the logic board doesn't require Sandy Bridge. TB is it's own chipset, not part of SB.
It has to do with getting a graphics signal across the Thunderbolt interface. In terms of DATA ONLY (no video capability), the current chip is capable of that portion. But Intel's statements leaves me with the indication they're going to release a new chip for desktops (or PCIe cards) that will also allow for graphics data to be passed as well.

If you go back and look at the Tech Brief from Intel on the current Thunderbolt chip, you'll notice in the diagram a dGFX labeled block (pg. 3), which is processed DisplayPort data (i.e. not passed over PCIe, but the DP output is wired directly to the TB chip in order to pass it over the TB cable). This helps with the bandwidth issues for display data BTW (no need to run full PCIe bandwidth to a GPU).

In order for a PCIe card to pass graphics data (no possibility of direct wiring DP output to the TB chip), that data has to be passed over PCIe, which means it would need to be integrated on the Graphics card, or a bridge chip (DP to PCIe, which doesn't yet exist) needed to pass it over PCIe (not to be confused with say DP to DVI bridge, ...).
TB has even been demoed on Mac Pros. We're not talking about a huge leap. Same thing that happened with the MDD G4.
Data transfers, not graphics. That's all the current chip would be capable of (possible we could see such cards, but that's not the goal Intel intended with this particular part it seems). So they could choose not to allow this to happen (not sell this particular TB chip to vendors that intend to make a PCIe card out of it) in order to prevent confusion/anger over what TB is and isn't capable of actually doing, as users may not understand the limitations properly. Adoption is key to Intel and their partners, so this isn't entirely implausible.
Yeah, again, I disagree, as shown by Apple's reviving of the MDD G4 right before the G5's shipped. (Which, I'll also note, they put a bunch of work into, only to discontinue and then go back a revision.)
You're looking too far back. What they did back in the PPC days are gone (they no longer do their own design work, nor is the workstation market what's keeping them afloat). The consumer products have taken over by far (laptops + devices).

The 2010 Mac Pro wasn't really released that late (still about a year), and that only because that release was connected to new Xeons. Mac Pro releases don't have to be at all connected to Intel's schedule. Traditionally, they never have been, it just so happened that Intel was also on a yearly schedule.
Apple is following Intel's releases just as other workstation vendors. Not enough changes in-between to justify a board re-design to add in a part. Independent board makers (i.e. ASUS, Gigabyte, ...) have greater freedom, as they're not developing entire machines (no need to verify every single part works, from the CPU down to say an ODD).
Desktop variant is already out... The controller chip works on any type of machine. Sadly, the PCIe question still hasn't been answered.
For DATA ONLY, Yes, it would work. But that's not what the TB is about. So Intel may prevent the current chip for being used to make PCIe cards capable of DATA ONLY transfers. Now if you step back and think about the recent information they've released, it seems to support this (they just didn't outright state they would refuse component sales to vendors intending to sell a DATA Only compliant PCIe card). Supply could also be part of it (likely IMO; just look at initial CPU releases), as it is new...
 
It has to do with getting a graphics signal across the Thunderbolt interface.

Which does not require Sandy Bridge...

If you go back and look at the Tech Brief from Intel on the current Thunderbolt chip, you'll notice in the diagram a dGFX labeled block (pg. 3), which is processed DisplayPort data (i.e. not passed over PCIe, but the DP output is wired directly to the TB chip in order to pass it over the TB cable). This helps with the bandwidth issues for display data BTW (no need to run full PCIe bandwidth to a GPU).

Yep, seen the diagram.

In order for a PCIe card to pass graphics data (no possibility of direct wiring DP output to the TB chip), that data has to be passed over PCIe, which means it would need to be integrated on the Graphics card, or a bridge chip (DP to PCIe, which doesn't yet exist) needed to pass it over PCIe (not to be confused with say DP to DVI bridge, ...).

It's also possible for Apple to add integrated graphics to the existing Mac Pro to provide output on the internal TB port. However, whether having video output is an actual requirement is still something that was up in the air, and I'm not sure we've gotten an answer on that yet.

You're looking too far back. What they did back in the PPC days are gone (they no longer do their own design work, nor is the workstation market what's keeping them afloat). The consumer products have taken over by far (laptops + devices).

Even looking at Apple's current history... Apple likes to do yearly releases, this plays right into their yearly release schedule... And it lines up with a few other things I've heard.

For DATA ONLY, Yes, it would work. But that's not what the TB is about. So Intel may prevent the current chip for being used to make PCIe cards capable of DATA ONLY transfers.

Intel has so far made TB out to be an open standard, which means they wouldn't be able to prevent anything... We'll see if that holds true.

Now if you step back and think about the recent information they've released, it seems to support this (they just didn't outright state they would refuse component sales to vendors intending to sell a DATA Only compliant PCIe card). Supply could also be part of it (likely IMO; just look at initial CPU releases), as it is new...

I think Intel is saying a lot of conflicting things (such as that they wouldn't rule out a laptop TB card, which makes no sense if a desktop card is impossible.)
 
But sadly, just like USB2 vs Firewire, ignorant joe consumer doesn't understand the difference and doesn't care, so he chooses USB because it costs a few bucks less.

It's not about understanding, it's about noticing the difference. Why would I pay more for something that I won't notice? USB 3.0, even at 50% speed, can provide 2.5Gb/s which is 312.5MB/s. That is more than twice as much as a single mechanical HD can currently provide. It does not matter what TB or USB 3.0 can provide in the real world when they are not the bottlenecks, the drives are.

At least when it comes to USB 2.0 vs FW800, it's not few bucks. I've been looking for a new external and the cheapest 1TB FW800 external I could find here was 120€. 100€ gets me a 2TB USB external. I didn't have to think twice what would I get. And with this case, there would even be a significant difference in terms of performance. With TB and USB 3.0, there would not be as long as we are talking about a single mechanical HD (even two in RAID 0 wouldn't give a reason to choose TB over USB 3.0 in terms of performance).

goMac said:
Even looking at Apple's current history... Apple likes to do yearly releases, this plays right into their yearly release schedule... And it lines up with a few other things I've heard.

Previous update took 16 months. Q4 2011 fits well within that.
 
It's not about understanding, it's about noticing the difference. Why would I pay more for something that I won't notice? USB 3.0, even at 50% speed, can provide 2.5Gb/s which is 312.5MB/s. That is more than twice as much as a single mechanical HD can currently provide. It does not matter what TB or USB 3.0 can provide in the real world when they are not the bottlenecks, the drives are.

At least when it comes to USB 2.0 vs FW800, it's not few bucks. I've been looking for a new external and the cheapest 1TB FW800 external I could find here was 120€. 100€ gets me a 2TB USB external. I didn't have to think twice what would I get. And with this case, there would even be a significant difference in terms of performance. With TB and USB 3.0, there would not be as long as we are talking about a single mechanical HD (even two in RAID 0 wouldn't give a reason to choose TB over USB 3.0).

I can think of several reasons:
• TB lets you connect to eSATA devices.
• TB lets you connect to USB3 devices
• TB provides a more reliable connection to RAID devices, which are very popular in pro fields (I knew someone who had two 8 bay RAIDs hooked up to his Macbook Pro, had to use a flakey eSATA card. I imagine he's dying to get his hands on TB hardware. He could probably even daisy chain both RAIDs on a single connection.)

Previous update took 16 months. Q4 2011 fits well within that.

I doubt we'll see a reliable supply of SB Xeons in Q4. I think we'll see a Mac Pro SB upgrade sometime between Jan-March 2012.

Apple likes to upgrade the Mac Pros sometime around the first half of the year, putting us on track for a minor upgrade around TB, followed by a SB upgrade early next year.

Spring/early summer would be a good time if Apple wants to push TB, with the first devices coming onto the market.
 
I can think of several reasons:
• TB lets you connect to eSATA devices.
• TB lets you connect to USB3 devices
• TB provides a more reliable connection to RAID devices, which are very popular in pro fields (I knew someone who had two 8 bay RAIDs hooked up to his Macbook Pro, had to use a flakey eSATA card. I imagine he's dying to get his hands on TB hardware. He could probably even daisy chain both RAIDs on a single connection.)

Think this from a grandma level, not from geek level. TB does not provide anything crucial for an average end-user compared to USB 3.0. Your vacation photo transfers and backups won't be any faster with TB device. You don't need RAIDs or eSATA compatibility, you just want something plug&play as cheap as possible. That is what I said in the beginning. For more advanced users, TB can provide lots of great things that USB 3.0 or any other interface cannot, no doubt about that.
 
Think this from a grandma level, not from geek level. TB does not provide anything crucial for an average end-user compared to USB 3.0. Your vacation photo transfers and backups won't be any faster with TB device. You don't need RAIDs or eSATA compatibility, you just want something plug&play as cheap as possible. That is what I said in the beginning. For more advanced users, TB can provide lots of great things that USB 3.0 or any other interface cannot, no doubt about that.

TB specifically isn't a grandma feature, it's a pro feature. I didn't think this was being disputed.

I doubt grandma would need USB3 either, but that's besides the point...
 
Which does not require Sandy Bridge...
It does though.

Graphic cards already in existance cannot pass a graphics signal to the TB chip. It either means the board has to be redesigned (integrated GPU on the main board), or graphics card vendors have to make some modifications at the very least (cheapest and easiest way to go, would be use a flexible PBC <just traces> with a DP chip to get it to the TB card). I didn't mention this however, as these do not yet exist (board would need a notch for a flexible PCB, such as what's used for Crossfire or SLI), and there's things to be ironed out between vendors (standard as to layout, dimensions, ...), as well an answer to basic question, "What's in it for GPU card vendors?" (they could be hesitant over unknown adoption).

If it takes off in the mobile market, they'd be much more willing to do so, as not having this could mean a loss in card sales. But if they choose not to take this route, the previously mentioned bridge chip would be needed or add the TB chip to the card. Ultimately, the method taken will be based on lowest cost (flexible PCB connector, bridge chip, or add a TB chip to the graphics card).

Regardless of the implementation however, current Graphics cards wouldn't be capable of providing a graphics signal to the current TB chip. Hence any PCIe card based on the existing TB chip, would only be capable of transferring PCIe data (not all that usefull in systems that have PCIe slots, as TB is only 4x lanes).

Faster storage is possible by using a PCIe slot (4x or larger), as it can exceed what's possible with TB running at 10Gb/s.
Yep, seen the diagram.
Then why ignore it?

Now if you meant the current chip is fine for DATA ONLY transfers (no MDP signals), then it would have been prudent to qualify your statement with that small bit of information. ;)

It's also possible for Apple to add integrated graphics to the existing Mac Pro to provide output on the internal TB port. However, whether having video output is an actual requirement is still something that was up in the air, and I'm not sure we've gotten an answer on that yet.
Integrated graphics would defeat the purpose of a workstation (but integrated graphics is fine for mobile and low-end desktops).

GPU data isn't a requirement of making PCIe work over TB (electrical or optical once the cables are available), but Intel's intended TB to have both, which existing systems and graphics cards cannot provide (no way to connect a DP output signal to the TB chip's DP input signal). This is why it's aimed at the laptop market right now (not only possible to do NOW, but simplifies things like docking stations or allows for fast/large storage pools that haven't been available previously <faster than eSATA, assuming the model had an ExpressSlot>).
Even looking at Apple's current history... Apple likes to do yearly releases, this plays right into their yearly release schedule... And it lines up with a few other things I've heard.
They can do faster releases with consumer products (Intel based), as their update cycles are a bit faster. But they're still at Intel's mercy wherever they use Intel CPU's and chipsets. For their devices (iPod, iPhone, iPad), they have control over the entire process (design their own ARM based chips via the PA Semi acquisition), so have a greater capability of making sure they can meet their intended upgrade cycles (ARM has some influence here, but their products aren't as complex as Intel's, so can get revisions out faster).

The enterprise market OTOH, isn't as quick. Apple follows Intel's cycles here, and intermediate updates are too expensive (anything that requires a PCB redesign), as there's fewer systems to divide the costs over.

Intel has so far made TB out to be an open standard, which means they wouldn't be able to prevent anything... We'll see if that holds true.
They make and sell the parts, and could limit who they sell them to (based on intended use of said parts, not a "we don't like you" basis). I suspect there's compliance language in any sales contract that would prevent some uses.

I think Intel is saying a lot of conflicting things (such as that they wouldn't rule out a laptop TB card, which makes no sense if a desktop card is impossible.)
It would depend on the specifics, such as a few additional pins added to the ExpressSlot to transfer the MDP data (possible, nor difficult in the grand scheme of things; just update the ExpressSlot connectors needed and add a few extra traces). No additional semiconductors needed.

Assuming such conditions were needed, it would again only apply to new systems (card may/may not fit existing ExpressSlots for DATA ONLY operation - it would depend on how the slot connectors are redesigned).
 
TB specifically isn't a grandma feature, it's a pro feature. I didn't think this was being disputed.

I doubt grandma would need USB3 either, but that's besides the point...

I was simply backing up my statement that TB does not provide anything for an average end-user. Read the earlier posts so you get the idea why I posted what I posted ;)
 
It does not matter what TB or USB 3.0 can provide in the real world when they are not the bottlenecks, the drives are.
Correct.

To be able to utilize the additional bandwidth, the disks have to be configured in a RAID (either software or hardware based, such as the LaCie and Promise based TB devices that were recently announced respectively; LaCie = daisy chained and requires a software stripe to get the max throughput possible from the disks, while Promise has a built-in hardware RAID controller in the box).

But you can still get faster disk throughputs by using a PCI card (more than 8x lanes with a sufficient number of disks; whether it be DAS or SAN). NAS could exceed TB as well via port bonding (pair of 10G Ethernet ports for example), but cost wise, is nearing a SAN.
I can think of several reasons:
• TB lets you connect to eSATA devices.
• TB lets you connect to USB3 devices
• TB provides a more reliable connection to RAID devices, which are very popular in pro fields (I knew someone who had two 8 bay RAIDs hooked up to his Macbook Pro, had to use a flakey eSATA card. I imagine he's dying to get his hands on TB hardware. He could probably even daisy chain both RAIDs on a single connection.)
Yes, TB allows a user to connect to mutliple interfaces when the correct bridge chips are present in the end device or hub (TB to SATA, TB to USB, ...).

As per pro however, most don't use laptops as their primary system due to the need for PCIe slots for bandwidth requirements. This is changing of course, and it will be pushed by TB. But overall, we're not there yet.

Also, in terms of reliability, I don't see it. It comes down to the hardware selected (i.e. drivers may be horrible, and causes drop-outs, but it will vary from vendor to vendor, just as it has for years).



I doubt we'll see a reliable supply of SB Xeons in Q4. I think we'll see a Mac Pro SB upgrade sometime between Jan-March 2012.
Likely, as they need time to get the initial systems manufactured (have to wait for the parts to reach the assy plant with all the other components, begin manufacture, final verfication/evaluation testing of units off the line, build up a stock pile <first shipment quantity> and then deliver them to their destination. This takes some time, typically a Quarter.
TB specifically isn't a grandma feature, it's a pro feature. I didn't think this was being disputed.

I doubt grandma would need USB3 either, but that's besides the point...
Grandma may not need it, but it is aimed at consumers in it's current state, not professionals. That's why it's been released with laptops first, rather than workstations or servers.

Now this doesn't mean professionals can't utilize it on a laptop (could better utilize it in terms of bandwidth than a non professional), but they're not the primary target right now (they need to get it's adoption started, and the consumer market is where that will happen - far more users that will pony up the cash).
I was simply backing up my statement that TB does not provide anything for an average end-user. Read the earlier posts so you get the idea why I posted what I posted ;)
In terms of those that will utilize the bandwidth to it's potential, probably not (save perhaps a docking station that uses a larger monitor). But in terms of usability, they could gain use of peripherals that weren't possible before or combinations that weren't. It's more of an ease of use technology right now than anything else (as goMac mentions, with the right device/hub, you can bridge TB to SATA, USB 3.0/2.0, FW, ... types of devices <hubs usefull for existing devices in particular>). This would be particularly useful for those that will have TB equipped laptops without an ExpressSlot (could result in a decline of ExpressSlot equipped systems).
 
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To add to speculation of the possibility of TB on GPUs, AMD is reportedly not all that taken with TB for displays, as it only supports an older lower res version of Displayport.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/..._Does_Not_Believe_in_Intel_s_Thunderbolt.html

If AMD does not plan on making TB compatible GPUs, this might force data only TB.

(If AMD is correct, which they seem to be, the lack of compatibility for DP 1.2 may also kill TB as the next display standard, especially as cutting 1.2 support would be a step back for the Mac Pros.)
 
To add to speculation of the possibility of TB on GPUs, AMD is reportedly not all that taken with TB for displays, as it only supports an older lower res version of Displayport.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/..._Does_Not_Believe_in_Intel_s_Thunderbolt.html

If AMD does not plan on making TB compatible GPUs, this might force data only TB.

(If AMD is correct, which they seem to be, the lack of compatibility for DP 1.2 may also kill TB as the next display standard, especially as cutting 1.2 support would be a step back for the Mac Pros.)

That's a dumb article... TB doesn't depend on GPU's to be compatible... if the GPU can output display port, it's compatible. And besides, AMD is actually the first to provide display connectivity over TB with their GPU's in the new MBP's.

However, I agree, that hell might freeze over before we see AMD GPU's with Intel TB chips on them. But that won't stop companies from integrating display port from AMD GPU's into TB like Apple has done.
 
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That's a dumb article... TB doesn't depend on GPU's to be compatible... if the GPU can output display port, it's compatible. And besides, AMD is actually the first to provide display connectivity over TB with their GPU's in the new MBP's.

Kind of... You can't output DP 1.2 over a TB connection. And a TB port can't output DP 1.2, not enough bandwidth free.

However, I agree, that hell might freeze over before we see AMD GPU's with Intel TB chips on them. But that won't stop companies from integrating display port from AMD GPU's into TB like Apple has done.

Yeah, but the Macbook Pros are different in since everything is on one board. Apple can reroute the DP output of the Radeon on the board to the TB port...

Meantime, you can't do that on a Mac Pro with an external card. As mentioned, there isn't really a protocol for taking MDP output from an external card and rerouting it over another internal port.

TB for PCIe GPUs looks pretty dead in the water.
 
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Kind of... You can't output DP 1.2 over a TB connection. And a TB port can't output DP 1.2, not enough bandwidth free.



Yeah, but the Macbook Pros are different in since everything is on one board. Apple can rereoute the DP output of the Radeon on the board to the TB port...

Meantime, you can't do that on a Mac Pro with an external card. As mentioned, there isn't really a protocol for taking MDP output from an external card and rerouting it over another internal port.

TB for PCIe GPUs looks pretty dead in the water.

From what I've read, DP 1.2 is not precluded from transmitting over TB... the data rate of DP 1.2 is not fixed at 17Gbps (which is admittedly required to drive dual 2560x1600 displays), nor even the maximum of 21.6 Gbps. It can run at lower data rates (e.g. when driving a single display).

Besides, won't future multi-channel TB interfaces easily support data rates far in excess of 20Gbps... especially over optical?

It's worth noting that DP 1.2 is really similar to TB in that it enables other data to be muxed into the stream such as USB, ethernet, etc. although it remains to be seen if that's easier to do directly over TB or via DP over TB. :)

While it might be ghetto, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to mux the output from the display port output on a discreet GPU card into a TB PCIe card with a simple loop cable.
 
Even if a TB PCIe card was available tomorrow for the Mac Pro, would it matter?

Not going against anything here. But (if) there was and they had hard drives with light peak or should I say ThB ports. Would it not be cheaper and faster than setting up SSD's, with an SSD card? I think it could be cheaper. It would matter to me, perhaps to many people. I probably would have brought one on launch day :).

But this is all very interesting, even if did not have the display port capabilities, I would think the ThB's in out speed would be greatly welcome.

Have a nice day.
 
Not going against anything here. But (if) there was and they had hard drives with light peak or should I say ThB ports. Would it not be cheaper and faster than setting up SSD's, with an SSD card? I think it could be cheaper. It would matter to me, perhaps to many people. I probably would have brought one on launch day :).

But this is all very interesting, even if did not have the display port capabilities, I would think the ThB's in out speed would be greatly welcome.

Have a nice day.

I might be wrong, but I think TB drive enclosures would only be of interest to those who had already filled all 6 internal bays with SSD's already. I would think, at least near-term, that if you need external mass storage, that eSATA would be a cheaper choice and just as fast (for mechanical drives). Hence, to complete the circle, the only Mac Pro users that might want TB would be those that already have their internal bays full of SSD's and need more. From what I know, that's not a lot of people here. :p :D

ps. how can you tell I'm killing time here? :)
 
From what I've read, DP 1.2 is not precluded from transmitting over TB... the data rate of DP 1.2 is not fixed at 17Gbps (which is admittedly required to drive dual 2560x1600 displays), nor even the maximum of 21.6 Gbps. It can run at lower data rates (e.g. when driving a single display).

The entire point of DP 1.2 is the higher data rate... So yes, you could transmit less, but then you'd be running as DP 1.1 and wouldn't be able to drive devices that required 1.2, hence the problem.

Besides, won't future multi-channel TB interfaces easily support data rates far in excess of 20Gbps... especially over optical?

Most likely, and when that time comes they'll likely support DP 1.2. But that could be a few years away...

While it might be ghetto, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to mux the output from the display port output on a discreet GPU card into a TB PCIe card with a simple loop cable.

You could do that, and I've suggested that as a solution for the Mac Pro. This is basically what Apple is doing internally on the Macbook Pro (except before the chipset instead of after). But the question remains on if you have to push the video output through the chipset, or mux it after the fact. If you have to push the video through the chipset, that's going to be a no-go for the Mac Pro.
 
I might be wrong, but I think TB drive enclosures would only be of interest to those who had already filled all 6 internal bays with SSD's already. I would think, at least near-term, that if you need external mass storage, that eSATA would be a cheaper choice and just as fast (for mechanical drives). Hence, to complete the circle, the only Mac Pro users that might want TB would be those that already have their internal bays full of SSD's and need more. From what I know, that's not a lot of people here. :p :D

I don't follow your reasoning.

I'd like TB enclosures ASAP, and I'd buy them in preference to anything else. I have a MacPro, and I'll be upgrading my MacBook pretty soon. I'll be using external enclosures with the MacBook (probably a MBP), and I'll want a fast standard which I can use across different computers, and which protects my investment.

USB2 and FW800 are slower than a modern low end HDD, USB3 won't be coming natively to the Mac, and eSATA isn't natively on the Mac (and can't be retrofitted to anything other than the 17inch MBP or MP). I'll be buying TB as soon as I can.


A question for everyone here (which I haven't found an answer to yet). Anyone know if Intel is going to be allowing data-only TB interfaces? While it's nifty to have both data and graphics down the same wire, the main TB feature that attracts me is fast external storage. I already have my monitor hooked up using DVI - I don't need a second screen, and I really don't care if a TB interface has graphics or not.
 
I was just saying that if you want to add fast mass storage to your Mac Pro, you don't need TB to do that. Even in your case, internal storage on your MP shared over the network with your MBP is probably a decent, if not cheaper and more convenient solution in lieu of a TB enclosure swapped between the two. But I won't pretend to know your specific needs.

As for data only TB, Intel hasn't clarified, but I see it as inevitable... Once they broaden the sale of TB chips beyond Apple who reportedly has an exclusive through the rest of this year (if I read that right?).
 
I was just saying that if you want to add fast mass storage to your Mac Pro, you don't need TB to do that. Even in your case, internal storage on your MP shared over the network with your MBP is probably a decent, if not cheaper and more convenient solution in lieu of a TB enclosure swapped between the two. But I won't pretend to know your specific needs.

I'm hoping it kills USB3 and eSATA. If it's cheap enough, it certainly has the flexibility - and it's a much better engineered standard.

I'm looking for an external box with swappable caddy-less bays to be honest. I like to backup to bare drives, then store offsite.

As for data only TB, Intel hasn't clarified, but I see it as inevitable... Once they broaden the sale of TB chips beyond Apple who reportedly has an exclusive through the rest of this year (if I read that right?).

Intel were sending mixed messages out. I thought they were saying that it would take up to a year for other vendors to integrate TB. I'm not sure that there was an artificial exclusivity deal going on.
 
Intel were sending mixed messages out. I thought they were saying that it would take up to a year for other vendors to integrate TB. I'm not sure that there was an artificial exclusivity deal going on.

it looks like you're right, apparently there is no Apple exclusivity. I wonder why there was so much emphasis on Apple having nearly a year "head start". Surely it can't take that much effort to integrate one of these chips into a logic board design???
 
However, I agree, that hell might freeze over before we see AMD GPU's with Intel TB chips on them. But that won't stop companies from integrating display port from AMD GPU's into TB like Apple has done.

Probably not hell freezing over but perhaps not before PCI-e v3.0 deploys. Nvidia is being squeezed out of the PCI-e card market by Intel too (even more so than AMD since at least they can claw back some ground with AMD-Fusion offierings.). But yes, neither one of them is going to be too keen to put an Intel part into their reference designs so that Intel gets a piece of the action of every card.

The other issue is the GPUs sharing bandwidth with the TB data throughput. Using all the bandwidth they can is what keeps the cards out in front of the integrated graphics solutions. I don't see them being very happy to share (unless there is more bandwidth to go around ... like v3.0 )


I don't think "data only" sockets are going to come for two reasons:

1. Backward compatibility with display port. The Display port are going to chaff if TB tries to turn it into a port that "sometimes is data" and "sometimes is data and video". They all have the same logo (which has problems since it was already an international symbol ) but sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't when you plug your monitor in.

[ Apparently, the USB folks weren't too keen on TB hijacking the USB socket either. Having a "data only" version would be akin to a "Super Speed" only variant for USB 3.0. We you plug in and it isn't backward compatible even though the plug is compatible. That is bound to generate user confusion. Also a similar reason why FW over an Ethernet jack never really took off either. ]

I think the display port folks are happy to go along for the ride if this pushes display port to more system designs. If the "dispaly port" part is optional then that is can turn into a farce and they just got played.

2. It is a waste. If the TB controller already has a legacy Display Port controller in it (so can fall-back to DP when second-to-last controller on the chain) then you are paying for something not going to use. I'm sure the vendors will pass that along to the customers. Contrast that with eSATA which probalby isn't going to lay down without a fight. Externalizing SATA III singals (over 3 meters or less like TB) may work and you don't have to buy a controller with cruft you aren't going to use. It is likely a cheaper option. SAS and SATA short distance interconnect aren't going away. Especially as long as hamstrung with copper.
 
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