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dwig

macrumors 6502a
Jan 4, 2015
907
449
Key West FL
I have yet to see one place where I can see all the differences between USB-C and Thunderbolt and all the various cabling options in one place. You get bits a pieces from different sources. No wonder why a lot are confused including me at times.
The confusion is aggravated by people's constant incorrect usage of "USB-C" in this context.

All "USB-letter" terms only relate to the connector and NEVER to the data protocols supported except that some connector set an upper maximum in their range of protocols. Combine that with the fact that Thunderbolt never has had its own connector and merely piggy-backed on some other connector (mini-DisplayPort for TB1 & TB2 and USB-C for TB3 & TB4) and the confusion expands. The 3rd compounding factor is that the USB consortium has (foolishly?) chosen complex terms for their data protocols/speeds which humans naturally try to trim to shorter "nicknames", often incorrectly using the connector's name.
 

BeatCrazy

macrumors 603
Jul 20, 2011
5,106
4,461
Q:
The USB-C cable that was included in the Studio Display - what is that ? TB3 or TB4 ?
I assume it's the same cable that comes with the Pro Display XDR.

It's essentially TB4, although it was first introduced before the TB4 standard. I say "essentially" because it behaves like a TB4 cable, i.e. it supports up to 2M-3M without being an "active TB3" cable meaning it also works with standard USB Gen 1, which TB3 active cables do not.
 
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4sallypat

macrumors 601
Sep 16, 2016
4,031
3,781
So Calif
I assume it's the same cable that comes with the Pro Display XDR.

It's essentially TB4, although it was first introduced before the TB4 standard. I say "essentially" because it behaves like a TB4 cable, i.e. it supports up to 2M-3M without being an "active TB3" cable meaning it also works with standard USB Gen 1, which TB3 active cables do not.
Thanks for the info.

So if I want a longer cable between the Studio Display and the Mac Studio, is this the correct cable:
Screen Shot 2022-03-25 at 7.54.36 AM.png
 

ArkSingularity

macrumors 6502a
Mar 5, 2022
928
1,130
The confusion is aggravated by people's constant incorrect usage of "USB-C" in this context.

All "USB-letter" terms only relate to the connector and NEVER to the data protocols supported except that some connector set an upper maximum in their range of protocols. Combine that with the fact that Thunderbolt never has had its own connector and merely piggy-backed on some other connector (mini-DisplayPort for TB1 & TB2 and USB-C for TB3 & TB4) and the confusion expands. The 3rd compounding factor is that the USB consortium has (foolishly?) chosen complex terms for their data protocols/speeds which humans naturally try to trim to shorter "nicknames", often incorrectly using the connector's name.

Agreed. Retroactively rebranding USB 3.0 to USB 3.1 Gen 1 (and then doing it again with USB 3.2) made it difficult to make any sort of sense whatsoever of what speed you were actually going to get.

The whole USB-C connector itself is great, having one type of port for multiple protocols is great for backwards compatibility and for supporting future protocols without making a mess of new ports. But the cable situation (and the complex naming) is an absolute dumpster disaster that is making it even more complicated than the old way of doing things. In my opinion, unlabeled power-only cables shouldn't even exist. Every USB-C cable should be mandated to support, at minimum, "USB 3.2 Gen 2x2" (20gbps), or otherwise be labeled as a PD-only cable. And any cable that supports TB3/4 must do so at 40gbps (actively or passively) and be labeled as a TB cable.

Instead, we've got a plethora of unlabeled USB-C cables that only support 5gbps USB, some that don't even support data at all (or do so at USB 2.0 speeds), and others that claim to support Thunderbolt 3 but only do so at 20gbps (and worse, this isn't even technically incorrect since TB3 allows this for passive cables). And then there are even more that actually do support full speed thunderbolt 3/4 but aren't certified to do so, and thus don't have the lightning symbol on them. It's an absolute mess and it's almost impossible to actually know what you're going to get without looking at the manufacturer's spec sheet.
 
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m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
1,368
1,267
The confusion is aggravated by people's constant incorrect usage of "USB-C" in this context.

All "USB-letter" terms only relate to the connector and NEVER to the data protocols supported except that some connector set an upper maximum in their range of protocols. Combine that with the fact that Thunderbolt never has had its own connector and merely piggy-backed on some other connector (mini-DisplayPort for TB1 & TB2 and USB-C for TB3 & TB4) and the confusion expands. The 3rd compounding factor is that the USB consortium has (foolishly?) chosen complex terms for their data protocols/speeds which humans naturally try to trim to shorter "nicknames", often incorrectly using the connector's name.
They've done more than that. They've changed existing terminology in unintuitive ways that led to a bewildering set of terminology.

I really don't understand what they had against the simple: USB 1, USB 2, and USB 3 labeling. While it didn't convey speed it did convey that three was faster than two which was in turn faster than one. Even adding .1 or .2 was OK. Now the same specification is referred to as USB 3.1 Gen 1 and USB 3.2 Gen 1 × 1, and USB 3.2 is referred to as USB 3.2 Gen 1 × 2 and Gen 2 × 2 multi-link modes, and USB is referred to as USB4 Gen 2 × 2 and Gen 3 × 2. Ridiculous.
 
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dizmonk

macrumors 65816
Nov 26, 2010
1,080
678
This is a helpful thread. So here's my question... With an external 4k monitor which has Displayport 1.2 and obviously HDMI... what's the best cable to attach to the Mac Studio (Max - not the Ultra) which will present the best and most stable picture/connection?
 

enricoclaudio

macrumors 6502a
Jun 5, 2017
869
1,344
This is a helpful thread. So here's my question... With an external 4k monitor which has Displayport 1.2 and obviously HDMI... what's the best cable to attach to the Mac Studio (Max - not the Ultra) which will present the best and most stable picture/connection?
What 4K monitor model? I have a pair of LG 32UN880-B and I use USB-C as its powers the USB ports in the monitors so I can attach the Logitech 4K Pro webcam to any of the monitor USB ports. You can't do that with DisplayPort or HDMI.
 

appletvbob

macrumors regular
Feb 9, 2009
111
72
I googled "Thunderbolt 4 devices" and "Thunderbolt 4 accessories." You can buy hubs, docks, and cables... but what else? 4K and 5K monitors I suppose are the number one use case? Add me to the confused camp of future Mac Studio Max owners who will likely never tap into its full potential. My only USB-C peripherals are Samsung T7 drives, a Steinberg UR22C audio interface, and an Apple Thunderbolt Display via the TB3-TB2 adapter. Yes, I am Mr. Overkill... too impatient to wait for the next M-whatever Mac Mini, but hopefully confident I'll easily get 5-7 years out of this beast.
 

enricoclaudio

macrumors 6502a
Jun 5, 2017
869
1,344
I googled "Thunderbolt 4 devices" and "Thunderbolt 4 accessories." You can buy hubs, docks, and cables... but what else? 4K and 5K monitors I suppose are the number one use case? Add me to the confused camp of future Mac Studio Max owners who will likely never tap into its full potential. My only USB-C peripherals are Samsung T7 drives, a Steinberg UR22C audio interface, and an Apple Thunderbolt Display via the TB3-TB2 adapter. Yes, I am Mr. Overkill... too impatient to wait for the next M-whatever Mac Mini, but hopefully confident I'll easily get 5-7 years out of this beas

SSDs and Thunderbolt Bays as well.
 

killawat

macrumors 68000
Sep 11, 2014
1,961
3,609
Instead, we've got a plethora of unlabeled USB-C cables that only support 5gbps USB, some that don't even support data at all (or do so at USB 2.0 speeds), and others that claim to support Thunderbolt 3 but only do so at 20gbps (and worse, this isn't even technically incorrect since TB3 allows this for passive cables). And then there are even more that actually do support full speed thunderbolt 3/4 but aren't certified to do so, and thus don't have the lightning symbol on them. It's an absolute mess and it's almost impossible to actually know what you're going to get without looking at the manufacturer's spec sheet.
Agree 1000%. Remember when usb-c gained adoption on 2015-2016 Macs. actual usb-c cables that were included with the 2015 Macbook were recalled. First party OEM apple cables. Manufactuers including cables that cause over voltage. junk cables included with early USB-C docks and enclosures. Thank the tech gods Benson Leung was watching over consumers with vetted cables, and rouge cables cooked his hardware in the process! You shouldn't need a $20,000 cable tester to use USB-C safely and with good performance. Then people say "ok, ok, I'll make it easy on myself and only use Thunderbolt cables" but then they run into the issues you describe and can't figure out what's wrong. My $$$$ Thunderbolt 3 cable is certified at 40 Gbps and yet my mechanical drive is not getting more than 5 MB/s. Its NUTS out there.
 
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Ifti

macrumors 601
Dec 14, 2010
4,023
2,597
UK
The whole USB-C spec is complete mess, throw Thunderbolt into the picture and it makes it worse. Unless a USB-C cable is properly labelled you don't know what you are getting? Is it a charging cable? Is it a power delivery cable? Is it a USB-C 3.x or USB-C 4 cable?

Agree - Thats why I just use Thunderbolt 4 cables for everything. Most of my devices are TB3/4 anyways, but I still use TB cables for even the odd USB-C drive. Just avoids confusion!
 
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dizmonk

macrumors 65816
Nov 26, 2010
1,080
678
What 4K monitor model? I have a pair of LG 32UN880-B and I use USB-C as its powers the USB ports in the monitors so I can attach the Logitech 4K Pro webcam to any of the monitor USB ports. You can't do that with DisplayPort or HDMI.
I've got this one....

 

ArkSingularity

macrumors 6502a
Mar 5, 2022
928
1,130
USB-C seemed a bit weird with its pin diagrams too. I've been doing some research on this. USB 3.0 actually introduced another data pin into its pin layout, and maintained backwards compatibility by designing the new connector to have two rows of pins (one that would line up with 2.0 devices, and the other than has the extra pin for 3.0 devices). In a sense, USB 3.0 ports are actually two USB ports fused together, one for each protocol. And most USB 3.0 hubs will actually connect any USB 2.0 devices into the USB 2.0 bus, separately from USB 3.0 devices. You essentially get two busses for every port.

USB-C continues this trend, and adds another set of data pins for USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 devices (if I'm getting this name correctly). But USB-C oddly still has the same USB 2.0 pins in the port, likely to support passive USB-C to USB 2.0 adapters. Furthermore, because USB-C is flippable, extra pins are required in the port to detect which direction the device is plugged in with. USB 2.0, as a protocol, doesn't expect pins to ever be reversed, so there has to be a redundant set of data pins for USB-C to support USB 2.0 (allowing the data to be transferred the same way regardless of whether the cable is flipped). In other words, where USB 2.0 required only two data pins to support its protocol, USB-C requires 4.

Just by supporting the USB 2.0 through USB-C, four pins have basically been wasted for any other use (besides negotiating the power delivery and data protocol, which IIRC is still done via USB 2.0 for some reason). They pretty much designed USB-C to use USB 2.0 as the lowest common denominator, which is a little weird in a world where USB 2.0 is this old.

Granted, many USB 2.0 devices still exist. USB 2.0 is fine for keyboards, mice, and other such accessories that might be (very slightly) more expensive to manufacture on USB 3.0 (sorry, USB 3.2 Gen 2x1), but that's probably a fair tradeoff. USB 3.0 devices aren't exactly expensive to manufacture, and the concern really only lies in supporting existing devices. If USB-C had eliminated USB 2.0 pins from the connector, USB-C -> USB-A adapters would have to have some active circuitry to send signals on another bus (or re-use other pins for USB-2.0 data transfer) which might require hardware and driver changes. Would this have been a bit painful for a year or two? Probably, but it would have given USB-C a lot more headroom (more pins) to design much faster protocols without pushing clock rates so high that fiber optics and active circuitry are required for TB3/4 cables that are longer than 1.6 feet long.

There is a lot that USB-C has done right (and being able to share chargers across all devices is amazing), among much faster data transfer speeds and the ability to plug displays into the same ports that you charge with. But it still feels like it wasn't the most future proof way of doing things in light of the developments over the last 10 years. In 2012, USB 2.0 was more relevant. But now, when we're pushing data transfer speeds to 40gbps, it seems to be becoming a limiting factor to use this as the lowest common denominator. I imagine it's made Thunderbolt much more challenging to engineer for high speeds than alternatives (such as HDMI) for example, but alas, I'm not an engineer and can't say whether that's truly an accurate assessment.

Edit: It turns out that USB-C port can in fact accommodate the use of two of the USB 2.0 pins for data protocols other than USB 2.0 through alternative mode (albeit not through the official USB-standard itself). These pins are used for DisplayPort and for certain other standards, but not for the USB 3.x or 4.x standards. The bad news is that many hosts don't support alternate mode, but the good news is that this will likely improve in the future.
 
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edanuff

macrumors 6502a
Oct 30, 2008
578
259
Thanks... Yeah I have one like that.. I was just curious if there was a better option.... Sounds like there's not really.
Well, you could use HDMI and free up one of your Thunderbolt ports for other uses. I've had issues in the past with HDMI ports on Macs not outputting in the right format and getting washed out colors because MacOS doesn't expose all the settings. I connect my PC via HDMI and I'm able to ensure that the PC is sending full range RGB in the control panel. I don't know if this is still an issue so it might be worth trying.
 

Maryarena

macrumors newbie
Jul 5, 2016
19
20
PR
USB-C is a physical connector type.

Thunderbolt is a protocol that can use the USB-C connector, and can support a variety of interfaces including video and transfer speeds up to 40Gbps.

USB 3.1 Gen 2 is the protocol supported over the front USB-C connectors on the Studio Max. It can support speeds up to 10Gbps.

^^ There is a very simplified comparison between the two, there are more nuances of course!
Is Thunderbolt backwards compatible? Can I plug a USB 3.1 Gen 2 (without adapter) or a regular USB 3 (with an adapter) in the back of my Studio Max? Thank you.
 

BeatCrazy

macrumors 603
Jul 20, 2011
5,106
4,461
Is Thunderbolt backwards compatible? Can I plug a USB 3.1 Gen 2 (without adapter) or a regular USB 3 (with an adapter) in the back of my Studio Max? Thank you.
Yes you can. Thunderbolt on a computer (i.e. Mac Studio) is backwards compatible. However, most Thunderbolt peripherals/devices won't interface with a computer with a standard USB-C port.
 
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dwig

macrumors 6502a
Jan 4, 2015
907
449
Key West FL
Is Thunderbolt backwards compatible? Can I plug a USB 3.1 Gen 2 (without adapter) or a regular USB 3 (with an adapter) in the back of my Studio Max? Thank you.
Yes and no.

The TB3/4 ports on a computer are backward compatible with USB, though the exact USB spec supported will vary between machines.

TB3/4 devices (hubs, docks, hard drives, SSDs, ...) are rarely backwards compatible though newer circuitry is beginning to make this feasible. Plugging a TB3/4 SSD into a USB-only port will not work unless the SSD has specific provisions.
 
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Maryarena

macrumors newbie
Jul 5, 2016
19
20
PR
Yes you can. Thunderbolt on a computer (i.e. Mac Studio) is backwards compatible. However, most Thunderbolt peripherals/devices won't interface with a computer with a standard USB-C port.
I'm understanding much better now. Sometimes my mind gets blocked when I read descriptions of the devices. Thank you very much!
 

Ledgem

macrumors 68020
Jan 18, 2008
2,042
936
Hawaii, USA
I googled "Thunderbolt 4 devices" and "Thunderbolt 4 accessories." You can buy hubs, docks, and cables... but what else? 4K and 5K monitors I suppose are the number one use case? Add me to the confused camp of future Mac Studio Max owners who will likely never tap into its full potential. My only USB-C peripherals are Samsung T7 drives, a Steinberg UR22C audio interface, and an Apple Thunderbolt Display via the TB3-TB2 adapter. Yes, I am Mr. Overkill... too impatient to wait for the next M-whatever Mac Mini, but hopefully confident I'll easily get 5-7 years out of this beast.
Something that had the potential to change things for us on the Mac side was external graphics cards (eGPUs). Apple started supporting this on the Intel side when they began to support Thunderbolt 3. Given that everything but the Mac Pro has soldered-on GPUs, being able to add on a modern GPU had the potential to extend the life of many systems, depending on your workflow. (Just as an example, I was comparing notes with someone who had the same iMac as I did, yet the same photo editing software had become laggy on his system whereas mine was still smooth; the difference was that I had sprung for the highest-end video card option, whereas he had one of the lower-tier options. If he could have purchased a modern GPU and connected it to his system, his performance would be restored - and easily surpass what my system was doing, too.)

There's a lot of data that gets shuffled with GPUs and Thunderbolt-connected GPUs still lose a few percentage points of performance compared with GPUs connected directly to the motherboard.

I started the post saying that it "had the potential" because with the M1 systems, Apple is no longer supporting external GPUs. Maybe (hopefully) it will be a feature that is added back in the future. If it does, that's one application that will likely max out one of your Thunderbolt ports a bit more regularly.
 
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