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hewhore

macrumors member
Original poster
Jun 26, 2014
69
5
Germany
So eventually I formatted the ext' SSD as APFS, installed Sonoma on it without any issues, then booted back to the original start-up disk, I then attempted to create a new Photos library on the volume created for the new Sonoma install, but got an error message, so I created a new volume (on the external drive) in Disk Utility, and was then able to create the new Photos library on that one.
 

hewhore

macrumors member
Original poster
Jun 26, 2014
69
5
Germany
I'm still not certain why you want to put your OS on the external SSD.
As I mentioned in my original post, this was because there were several apps that I wanted to install, some of which are >50GB in size, which my 256GB internal SSD would not have space for. Having done more research in the last day or so, it seems that it is possible to run applications from an external drive (not doing a brand new install of the entire OS). I would be grateful if someone could confirm that.
 

Fishrrman

macrumors Penryn
Feb 20, 2009
29,294
13,406
OP wrote:
"As I mentioned in my original post, this was because there were several apps that I wanted to install, some of which are >50GB in size"

I just have to ask:
WHAT apps are greater than 50gb in size??
 

bzgnyc2

macrumors 6502
Dec 8, 2023
401
426
Not as much as fear mongers are pushing.

Of course Apple is not intending on selling computers all of which will last 30 years.

Amortization of desktops is 5 years for business. A home user could shoot for 10 years of use.

It's unlikely that 20 years of use will occur with current generation of computing devices.

This is, intended or not, roughly equivalent to a lifetime of an automobile is normal USA use. 10 years is about it for a commuting car. Somewhere between 150k and 200k miles is about it for an auto before it's just too much trouble to keep running.

No one is asking for computers that last 30 years. Even at today's reduced rate of technology improvements, today's computers will be at best docoration -- perhaps an amusement in 30 years.

However, 10 years is reasonable. My 2009 Mac Mini died after about 10 years and didn't feel slighted despite my lingering affinity for it. It was a workhorse and fine for day-to-day tasks right up until the end.

Even if businesses dump their desktops and laptops after 2-5 years, they shouldn't be disposable. They should be available for a 2nd life with someone else (the 1st and 2nd R of Reduce, Reuse, Recycle).

Modern cars generally last at least 10 years and there any many solid cars from the early naughts still on the road. Your better Honda and Toyota cars will do 300K well-maintained, which is 25 years @ 12K miles/year.

This is of course aside from the vintage and classics people have been keeping running for up to 100 years. Going back before the 60s and 50s you're probably getting into custom fabricated parts, though. More practical are many 80s and 90s cars sold on BringATrailer. It's not that all the parts are still available but many are and rarely are otherwise solid cars junked because one part wore out.

Point is, it should be reasonable to keep a premium computer like a Mac running well for 10 years. As year-over-year improvements are slowing, computers should be lasting longer not shorter. That includes OS support (I suggest 7 years of full support up to the hardware's capability and a final 2-3 years of legacy/security-only fixes) and replaceability of "consumables" and minor parts.
 

bzgnyc2

macrumors 6502
Dec 8, 2023
401
426
Keyboards wear out.

Mice wear out.

Batteries wear out.

SSD will likely outlast the above in any given laptop.


Batteries do wear out -- often in 3-5 years -- which is why they should be replaceable. Swappable isn't critical to me but replaceable is. Fortunately, that option only seems to have been taken away from peripheral devices.

Then I have an IBM PS/2 keyboard here that must be 30 years old and it's great. More recent and solid (except for the weakening battery) is my Logitech DiNovo Edge. Mice typically wear out faster but the great thing is they are replaceable. On the flip side, I've yet to see a quality trackpad (which I assume are the kind Apple makes) wear out before the rest of the laptop.

SSD will likely outlast batteries under most use patterns but my guess is that even a good SSD will die before the keyboard of most laptops under normal use patterns. And for people whose workloads are write-heavy, they could easily die before any other part in the laptop except the battery. And if the OS was better at keeping batteries between 20-80% most of the time, the batteries would probably make it the full 10 years.
 

bzgnyc2

macrumors 6502
Dec 8, 2023
401
426
As I mentioned in my original post, this was because there were several apps that I wanted to install, some of which are >50GB in size, which my 256GB internal SSD would not have space for. Having done more research in the last day or so, it seems that it is possible to run applications from an external drive (not doing a brand new install of the entire OS). I would be grateful if someone could confirm that.

Depends on the application. It used to be that you could install Microsoft Office anywhere (it was draggable if I remember). Then a later version required running the installer which would always install it under Applications but let you select a non system drive (e.g. the Word app would appear under /Volumes/ExternalDrive/Applications and work fine). More recent versions only install to the system disk.

Zoom encourages one to run an installer and run that installer as an admin to install itself in /Applications but it is technically possible to install Zoom to an alternate location (that's how I do it but it's not for everyone since it requires use of the Terminal).

Firefox just requires dragging its Application icon out of the .dmg file to wherever you want it. This is the way most Mac applications used to work and something I liked about the Mac compared to the messy and bloated Windows installers.

So you'll just have to try it with your games. If they all require an installer and those installers don't let you select a non-system disk as a destination then likely not an option for you (at best it would require hacking their installations to install elsewhere). However, if they are the drag-to-install type or their installer lets you select a non-system disk as the destination then you should be good to work that way.
 

picpicmac

macrumors 65816
Aug 10, 2023
1,247
1,846
All of them replaceable and do not prevent the Mac to be used.
The Mac can be use after the broken part is replaced.

You're intent on claiming the Mac SSDs will fail too soon, but you have no data.

Everything fails, eventually.

Regardless of the reason you are on this crusade against soldered SSDs, I believe it unlikely you will find any sort of victory.
 

rin67630

macrumors 6502a
Apr 24, 2022
546
372
The Mac can be use after the broken part is replaced.
No. With a defective battery, keyboard, mouse the Mac still boots and can be used with external equivalents.
The Intel Macs could boot on external SSDs before the broken parts were replaced.

With a broken SSD the M-Macs are just a paperweight.

I don't need a "victory" I just never will buy such a device.
 
Last edited:

bzgnyc2

macrumors 6502
Dec 8, 2023
401
426
This is what I will do on my next Mac.

It is my opinion that it is best to have more than one version of the operating system from which one can boot.

I wish to keep my Macs for many years. As such they go through several OS iterations.

Even with the current architecture of having the internal SSD contain necessary information that once was held in the PRAM or some other memory, I will want to keep separate environments for each major OS change.

And external TB enclosures are fast enough to not notice the difference in speed.

Even NVMe over USB3.1 Gen 2 (10Gbps) is really fast enough for most uses. I purchased a specific NVMe rated for reliability and put it in a USB3.1 Gen2 adapter just to get the ball rolling while I looked for a well-rated but reasonably priced TB enclosure but never ended up buying one just because the USB3.1 Gen 2 bus is rarely the bottleneck anyway. I imagine for managing 4K video files and the like a few x faster with TB would help but I don't have those use cases.

In any case, yes I like having the option to try new a version of the OS without committing to it and/or switch back to an older OS to test something. Since I generally keep my data external, using an extra 40-60GB of the internal disk for a 2nd OS isn't really consuming anything I was going to use anyway. And since my data is completely separate from the OS, I can always reverse a minor update with a clean install of the OS without worrying about my personal files getting touched.

One caveat, as Apple's user applications have been bundled into the OS and its updates and Apple has been less inhibited to change file formats, you have to be careful about one-way upgrades of files related to those applications. That is, when you login to your primary account with a home directory shared between two OS versions, the user applications of the new OS may try to upgrade some of your files in a way that can't be reversed without going to backups or similar. I am referring to things like your Mail, iTunes/Apple Music, iPhotos/Photos, Notes, etc. If you're using IMAP/Gmail/etc then worst case scenario for Mail is rebuilding your mail folders after logging back into the old version of the OS. These don't happen every major version so I mention it just as something to be on the lookout for.
 
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rin67630

macrumors 6502a
Apr 24, 2022
546
372
Even NVMe over USB3.1 Gen 2 (10Gbps) is really fast enough for most uses. I purchased a specific NVMe rated for reliability and put it in a USB3.1 Gen2 adapter just to get the ball rolling while I looked for a well-rated but reasonably priced TB enclosure but never ended up buying one just because the USB3.1 Gen 2 bus is rarely the bottleneck anyway.
Just take care that the NVMe enclosure has enough heat disspation.
NVMe blades will get hot over intensive use and the case must be able to dissipate that heat.
If you have a metal enclosure and heatpads between the NVMe and the enclosure + the enclosure glued on the aluminium iMac holder, you are on the safe side.
 
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rin67630

macrumors 6502a
Apr 24, 2022
546
372
For a diehard hobbyist and Mac fanatic.

The normal person would just send the unit in for repair... or replace it.
That "normal person" would not want to save or finish his work before sending the unit for repair, eventually pass the relay to another unit to bridge the repair time?
All things you can now forget with Apple Silicon.
 
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