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cateye

macrumors 6502a
Oct 18, 2011
752
3,046
All of this is simply my bias. I know many other people don't care or value these aesthetics. That's fine. I'm a scientist but I also turn my research into art.

The irony is, I'm a designer by profession. So I suppose the stereotype should be that I would veer toward forgiving Apple's excesses of design—the OP bought a Turbine Mac and enjoyed it for many years. That it was a failure for its intended audience is inconsequential, right?

I have a hard time accepting that. Design, to me, is all about audience. It is a gift to the audience you're creating for, like the literal efforts you put into making your presentations functional and enjoyable. Audience first, design second. Especially when we're talking about devices that have a functional purpose, versus just an object to be admired, I think failing to address the needs of your audience is design sin, like when Apple has careened into design as a means to an end. Not just reversing audience -> design, but audience disappears altogether.

You mention the Sunflower Mac, which is actually among my favorite products Apple ever produced. It made me smile, it was a delightful home computer. No one would mistake it for a professional's tool. It neither promised, no offered, the specific functional affordances that a professional audience might demand, but offered a whimsical form that made it easy, approachable and non-threatening, while still delivering the baseline of functional flexibility that its audience would need (even an optical drive!) Brilliant.

So who was the Turbine Mac's audience, then? It was pretty and clever, but not functional. As has been dissected over and over again, its "clever" design did not serve the needs of the hardware inside of it, nor did it give it a long enough runway to be iterated in the future to match the needs of evolving technology. It was positioned as a pretty, clever, appliance for work. It succeeded at two of those, and left the most important factor, audience, in the dust.
 
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okkibs

macrumors 65816
Sep 17, 2022
1,070
1,005
I think if they had called it the mac studio at the time and kept a tower mac pro it would have been a hit.
I'd say that was the Mac Mini at the time. The Studio's main hardware draws half of that of the trashcan Pro. I assume that if you doubled the Studio's power consumption it wouldn't do so well anymore. According to reviews the Ultra can even throttle under some high sustained loads.

The M2 Ultra Studio is in the range of about 100W for CPU and GPU combined whereas the Xeons in the Mac Pro drew over 100W alone and each of the dual GPUs could draw over 150W. The max power draw for full load was 430W with a 450W power supply, the Studio can draw 300W max with a 370W power supply, but that's with all the USB-C ports providing charging etc., so full load is more around 100-200W.

That's without accounting for the extra space needed to have swappable memory which the Studio's design doesn't account for (it needs to be easily reachable for the customer).

The fact most of the Mac Studio is just the overengineered cooling system is hilarious.
I think part of the reason might be that Apple doesn't have any more hardware to put in there. The M2 Ultra already needs that little space, and that's the best chip they got. What else would they use the space for? And don't say swappable hardware since that's the one thing Apple doesn't want and apparently can't do with the current design, at least not for GPU and memory.

The M2 Ultra still can't match current gen high-end hardware like the RTX 4000 series and the very latest AMD and Intel CPUs except for efficiency. Maybe one day the Studio will not be as empty, though I'd assume that extra hardware would go in the Mac Pro instead.
 

burgerrecords

macrumors regular
Jun 21, 2020
222
106
I think the thermal core was clever and love the idea of efficient cooling layout. However, since space for a desktop computer is not typically at such a high premium, really what is best is atx type format - it has very little compromise in terms of expandability and cooling. System in a package makes it all a pretty much a moot point for the medium term though.
 

walnuts

macrumors 6502a
Nov 8, 2007
598
357
Brooklyn, NY
I'm curious for the overall context of this (can't wait for the tell-all book). Considering all of these things:

  • Apple released the trash can to the chagrin of many users who liked expandability
  • Apple was/is doing really well in its mostly consumer-oriented iOS devices
  • Apple (roughly around this time) started dropping or diluting pro software (RIP Aperture and the whole Final Cut Pro X debacle)
    • Semi-related, that Apple's preference to announce new features in a big sudden show with no warning was always in conflict with true professionals who wanted lots of stability, notice and roadmaps to plan things like investments, etc. All pointing them to consumers more than pros as a market.
  • The question about whether the iPad was the future of computing
  • This eventual future we ended up in where Apple brought the Mac to Apple Silicon. This took a design choice that made sense in portable devices (putting memory and graphics on the same chip, bringing the benefit of faster internal communication at the expense of expandability) to the Mac. This was hugely successful for most of their users, except the people who like a cheese-grater design, which was always a small but vocal bunch.
  • Bringing us the current line-up- the Mac Pro or Studio, both of which are similar in their limited expandability in terms of RAM or graphics.
Which makes me think: was the trashcan meant to be the best Mac it could be, or was it an expression of where Apple wanted to go, and a subtle hint that if you wanted a truly pro-focused machine with things like beefy graphic cards you should shop elsewhere?

My best guess is that Apple wasn't of one mind about it- some thought Apple would drop the Mac for iOS (maybe those folks didn't want to invest in a pro at all?), others thought Apple Silicon would force them to drop video card and memory expansion someday, some thought that the trashcan truly addressed the way the market was going and were wrong (2 gpus were better than one beefy one),and others loved the Mac and wanted to make an exciting machine they could in spite of the challenges coming. But I'd love to know the real story.

In the end, I think the trashcan and all the decisions around it seemed crazy and wrong for certain users for a long time along the way, but make more sense seeing where Apple is today. Another question- maybe Apple Silicon was delayed- how different would this story have been if the Mac Studio with Apple Silicon dropped in 2016/7? I think that would have made for a more cohesive story and direction.
 
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iPadified

macrumors 68020
Apr 25, 2017
2,014
2,257
For every generation the performance increase is larger that people’s compute needs. What needed a Unix box (minicomputer) could be done on a PC (microcomputer), later what required and desktop PC could be done in a laptop, what required a fully loaded tower could be done in an AIO or a PC in a small footprint. Today a phone has sufficiently compute power for likely 95% of the people. The need for an expandable tower decreases for every generation and fewer and fewer customers to split the bill of development. At some point it is not sustainable.

I wonder how the 6,1 would have been perceived with two NVIDIA cards instead for e.g 3D rendering, frequent upgrades of CPU and GPU and a few heatsinks here and there to help the over heating problem, the name Mac Studio and sold parallel with a traditional Mac Pro. All of this was entirely possible at the time.
 

jclardy

macrumors 601
Oct 6, 2008
4,232
4,569
Studio is praised because it has crazy performance, a ton of external connectivity and a "reasonable" price for the specs. It isn't user upgradable at all, but that is because the memory and cpu/gpu are integrated. The SSD could have been upgradable, but with 6 TB4 ports and 10Gbps ethernet it is pretty moot as you can easily expand the storage externally.

The trashcan is the same idea, but way far ahead of its time. It is over-engineered with the specific purpose of removing upgradability. If Apple had made the GPU slots interchangeable with a selection of cards (And even no cards for the audio guys not to spend $$$ on dual GPUs they weren't going to use.) RAM was upgradable as was storage, which was a plus. But going from full upgradability, to basically zero, while being forced to use a dual GPU setup was just too much for it to overcome. The mass of Thunderbolt 2 ports would eventually become a great idea, but back in 2013 almost no equipment used Thunderbolt. And then...Apple just sat on it for years, and year after year the CPUs/GPUs became more and more outdated, while Apple just sat on the same price.

I owned a base model a few years ago and it was a great machine, I loved the design of it, other than the lack of upgradability.
 

arkieboy72472

macrumors regular
May 4, 2017
128
29
I am a diehard trash can fan. Now that you can get them for under 500, they are the perfect casual desktop for someone who doesn't too too much and like a sweet looking machine. I would say that people who were fans of the cube are likely fans of the 6,1. I have mine loaded up and I enjoy it. I never really push it, but the few times I do, its ok. However, it's a failure for its target audience at the time. The 5,1 is still better, but I just like the 6,1. It is what it is, and it has its limits and its shortcomings. If you can look past that, you can enjoy it.
 

impulse462

macrumors 68020
Jun 3, 2009
2,097
2,878
The trashcan Pro could absolutely work today if the cooling was fixed. Back in 2013 the hardware was less efficient, the Mac Studio only works now because of the more efficient technology. In 2013 a Mac Studio would have failed as well, with the extra space that the GPU and RAM slots would have taken up.

The Mac Studio to me is the trashcan's spiritual successor. And since the Studio's design works reliably and no longer overheats it's much better received.
THey are all spirtual successors to the original NeXT cube. ASi made the mac studio possible.

I'm glad OP liked the trashcan, I thought it looked cool no doubt. However a professional workstation, how a computer looks is literally the last thing on anyones mind. It was a failure all around, a cool looking one no less.
 

Longplays

Suspended
May 30, 2023
1,308
1,158
I understand that the lack of connectivity was frustrating for some pro users who needed PCI, GPU, etc, but why was there so much hate around this model?
I think the 2013 was very courageous of Apple to do.

It proved that a pro desktop without PCIe slots had demand. This spawned the iMac Pro & Mac Studio.

It reduced the price of a pro desktop for the majority of users who have zero interest with PCIe slots so long as the SoC & I/O were "good enough".

By the time the user upgrades in 4-6 years or decade from now the CPU, GPU, RAM, SSD, I/O and logicboard would be obsolete and even incompatible with the faster/newer standard.
 
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Longplays

Suspended
May 30, 2023
1,308
1,158
The trashcan Pro could absolutely work today if the cooling was fixed. Back in 2013 the hardware was less efficient, the Mac Studio only works now because of the more efficient technology. In 2013 a Mac Studio would have failed as well, with the extra space that the GPU and RAM slots would have taken up.

The Mac Studio to me is the trashcan's spiritual successor. And since the Studio's design works reliably and no longer overheats it's much better received.
Back in 2013 chips were 22nm or larger tech node and that Mac Pro did not apply material science on the HSF.

8 years later the SoC is 5nm and used very large copper HSF. Copper is more expensive and heavier than aluminum but it comply with silent PC & silent room requirements. That's a niche that many companies will gladly pay for.
 
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chrfr

macrumors G5
Jul 11, 2009
13,704
7,270
It proved that a pro desktop without PCIe slots had demand.
I think it proved that there was a demand for a workstation-style Mac. The trash can drove a lot of professional users away from macOS, likely permanently.
 

Longplays

Suspended
May 30, 2023
1,308
1,158
I think it proved that there was a demand for a workstation-style Mac. The trash can drove a lot of professional users away from macOS, likely permanently.
No doubt a minority left because of no PCIe slots.

The better option for Apple would have been to have Mac Pro and Mac Studio in 2013.

Continue with the case of the 2006-2012 Mac Pro then a taller Mac Studio as tall as the 2013 Mac Pro.
 

redheeler

macrumors G3
Oct 17, 2014
8,607
9,232
Colorado, USA
To understand why the 6,1 was hated you have to look at everything offered by the discontinued 5,1 it replaced. It didn’t have feature-parity with the 5,1 at all.

The hate wouldn’t have been there if it was sold alongside a refreshed 5,1. People would’ve loved the form factor just as with the Power Mac G4 Cube more than a decade earlier. It would be remembered much more fondly today just as the Cube is - but also likely wouldn’t have sold well priced as much as a full expandable tower Mac, again just like the Cube.

The fact that Apple kept it on the shelves long past its “sell by” date didn’t help its long-term likability either.
 
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JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
638
399
It reduced the price of a pro desktop for the majority of users who have zero interest with PCIe slots so long as the SoC & I/O were "good enough".
The way I remember it, the Trashcan made the Mac Pro more expensive, because it required dual GPUs. Tower cases with PCIe slots are cheap, while weird custom cases are expensive to develop.
 

Longplays

Suspended
May 30, 2023
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The way I remember it, the Trashcan made the Mac Pro more expensive, because it required dual GPUs. Tower cases with PCIe slots are cheap, while weird custom cases are expensive to develop.
The tower was used from 2003-2012. So the custom design has already been paid for.

By 2013 demand for Macs with PCIe slots dwindled as laptops became "good enough".
 
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JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
638
399
The tower was used from 2003-2012. So the custom design has already been paid for.

By 2013 demand for Macs with PCIe slots dwindled as laptops became "good enough".
The price of a high-quality tower case is $100 to $200, depending on the size and model. There are multiple manufacturers, and most models are lower-volume products than the Mac Pro. Fans are also cheap. While power supplies and motherboards are more expensive, the price comes from the functional parts rather than the physical design.

A tower case is almost always the cheapest option. The only reason for non-negligible R&D costs in case design is if you want to do something weird instead of making the default choice.
 

0339327

Cancelled
Jun 14, 2007
634
1,936
I've been an Apple user for over 30 years and have owned many different Macs during that time.

For me, the 2013 Mac Pro was the perfect desktop. It was my primary music production computer in my studio. It sat on my desk looking stunning right next to my monitor, it was almost completely silent, it had all the power I needed, it had all the Thunderbolt ports and connectivity I needed, and for the 7 years that I owned it, I never had a single issue with it. I purchased it with only 256GB SSD (and paired it with an extra Thunderbolt drive), and 12GB of ram with the intention of upgrading but never needed to.

When the M1 MBP came out, I traded it in for a 16" which is the best laptop I've owned, but I do miss my trashcan!

Of course, if I was buying a desktop today, the Mac Studio would be the equivalent and it looks like an amazing machine.

I understand that the lack of connectivity was frustrating for some pro users who needed PCI, GPU, etc, but why was there so much hate around this model?

I owed this machine for 7 years as well. Here are my complaints:

1. Heat dissipation was terrible. The fan got so much dust in the enclosure that after cleaning the entire unit…again and again, I finally stuck the entire computer inside air filter that could be easily cleaned.

2. No expansion. The computer was nice and small but I had so many external hard drives just for everyday use that my entire work area got hot from all the fans.

3. Thunderbolt bussing. There was only three and there were constant bugs with running three displays. I mean, e-mail Tim Cook and spend months with Apple engineers trying to resolve them bugs. It was bad.

4. SSD was proprietary. You simply couldn’t upgrade it. Eventually, OWC came out with a kit but it was very difficult to make sure all was perfect.

5. And the worst… No upgrades for 7 years! I remember the line “can’t innovate my a_s” and how after three years, that’s exactly what everyone was thinking…

A work computer is only as good as its ability to remain relevant with the latest tech. I wish they would’ve kept the G5/MacPro enclosure. That was amazing as it had 4 internal hard drive bays and you could hot swap them with the easy to open side panel.
 
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Mac47

macrumors regular
May 25, 2016
240
417
I owned one, the base model. It had a more premium feeling than any other Apple computer I’ve owned.

I was genuinely disappointed that the Mac Studio’s design is so very uninspired. It may be powerful, but I can never shake the feeling that it is just a suped-up Mac Mini, like a hot rod with a hood blister to advertise that its engine is bigger than stock. By contrast, the trashcan Mac Pro looked completely badass sitting on a desk, emanating menace from its glowing illuminated ports.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,339
2,974
Australia
To understand why the 6,1 was hated you have to look at everything offered by the discontinued 5,1 it replaced. It didn’t have feature-parity with the 5,1 at all.

The hate wouldn’t have been there if it was sold alongside a refreshed 5,1. People would’ve loved the form factor just as with the Power Mac G4 Cube more than a decade earlier. It would be remembered much more fondly today just as the Cube is - but also likely wouldn’t have sold well priced as much as a full expandable tower Mac, again just like the Cube.

The fact that Apple kept it on the shelves long past its “sell by” date didn’t help its long-term likability either.

But the G4 cube failed for the same reasons the 2013 failed - it was another thermal chimney design, by a company who lacks/lacked competence in designing cooling, so it cooked its internal components - optical drive and capacitive power buttons were frequent failures.

It had a price premium placed on small size, when no statistically significant portion of the market values small footprint when assessing the worth of a "professional" desktop computer. It did less, it offered less expansion, therefore, it should be radically less expensive than the expandable computer. That's what the market believes.

The G4 cube was also not helped by the fact it's signature decorative feature - the polycarbonate outer shell, which was supposed to transparently float the computer above the desk, was outside of Apple's manufacturing capabilities, and showed up cracks / crazing, or as they called them "mould lines", which were absolutely unacceptable in a feature that was supposed to be about translucency.
 
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impulse462

macrumors 68020
Jun 3, 2009
2,097
2,878
The tower was used from 2003-2012. So the custom design has already been paid for.

By 2013 demand for Macs with PCIe slots dwindled as laptops became "good enough".
You really need to cite this if youre going to post this on so many of these threads.

The people who thought the laptops were "good enough" in 2013 i somehow doubt used their workstations for many demanding/compute heavy tasks.
 
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MisterAndrew

macrumors 68030
Sep 15, 2015
2,895
2,390
Portland, Ore.
I like the 6,1 Mac Pro, but I’ve also been frustrated with its flaws. It is premium quality and beautiful. Apple could have designed it better inside and programmed the fan to prevent overheating. The thermal core and fan were sufficient, just not at the quiet low speed setting Apple kept it at.

The GPUs were more powerful than anything you could put into a 5,1 without modification (until much later into the run) and there were 2 of them!

It also has twice the memory bandwidth as the 5,1 and faster connectivity. It’s better than the 5,1 in every way besides the absence of PCIe slots. When it was working it was smoother and less glitchy than a 5,1.

The 7,1 fixes the flaws of both the 5,1 and 6,1. The 14,8 brings some flaws back.
 
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woolypants

macrumors 6502
Oct 24, 2018
356
526
For me, the 2013 Mac Pro was the perfect desktop.

I strongly suspect that the reality for many pros was that the trashcan was a very good machine for their needs.

The problem was that, on paper, it didn't look like the right machine. And pros buy based on paper decisions. They have to justify it to the buying team.

Exactly as you highlighted, people buy a Mac like that with the intention of expanding it in future to keep up with technology. The reality is that most people kinda don't.
 
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discofuel

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Feb 21, 2010
281
79
The people who thought the laptops were "good enough" in 2013 i somehow doubt used their workstations for many demanding/compute heavy tasks.
For my needs, it was only with the release of the M1 MacBook Pro that laptops became "good enough". My 16" MBP feels like a portable Mac Pro.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,339
2,974
Australia
Exactly as you highlighted, people buy a Mac like that with the intention of expanding it in future to keep up with technology. The reality is that most people kinda don't.

But the knowledge that they can is what gives them the psychological, and fiscal security to make that investment.

Figures about how few people actually upgrade their machines tend to ignore this.
 
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