Underage Drinking

[killerrobot]

Well I know everyone is kicked out after a certain hour but in good places underaged are kicked out at 2 or 3 so that if the police comes they don't have to pay a fee for letting them in.

All bars have to close at 3 now - regardless of the age of the clientele. I'm not sure how discotecas can get around that law and I think if you're categorized as a restaurant and serve food, you can stay open later.

Well I have been living in Madrid almost all my life and I'm surrounded by a lot of madrileños so I think I know perfectly the minimum age to buy and drink alcohol If for you that isn't a valid data I'll try to find something so that you are aware of that law and you inform your acquaintances

http://www.msc.es/gabinetePrensa/notaPrensa/desarrolloNotaPrensa.jsp?id=674 There you can find the anteproyecto that is needed before the law is aproved.

I believe you that it is 18. Never said I didn't. They obviously haven't done a big enough job at advertising it though. I'm glad you're so up on things that you can tell me when the law actually took vigor. First it was 2002. Then you said 2004. This anteproyecto was dated Sep. 2006 -which means it still needed to be voted on and passed as a law most likely in 2007 sometime? I'm just looking for a date as to when it officially became law which I can't seem to find anywhere.

And well you must know too If you live in Madrid,because alcohol can't be sold from 10 p.m(chinos appart)

Yeah I always hated that law - but all it means is you have to plan ahead a little to have a botellona or just go to thousands of different places where the chinos walk around selling beers. If you haven't been to Plaza dos de Mayo anywhere in Chueca or anywhere near Plaza Santa Ana or even walked down Gran Vía after midnight and not been offered a beer or alcohol lately, then I guess the law really has worked at stopping underage people from buying alcohol.

 

[Macintosh001]

All bars have to close at 3 now - regardless of the age of the clientele. I'm not sure how discotecas can get around that law and I think if you're categorized as a restaurant and serve food, you can stay open later.



I believe you that it is 18. Never said I didn't. They obviously haven't done a big enough job at advertising it though. I'm glad you're so up on things that you can tell me when the law actually took vigor. First it was 2002. Then you said 2004. This anteproyecto was dated Sep. 2006 -which means it still needed to be voted on and passed as a law most likely in 2007 sometime? I'm just looking for a date as to when it officially became law which I can't seem to find anywhere.




Yeah I always hated that law - but all it means is you have to plan ahead a little to have a botellona or just go to thousands of different places where the chinos walk around selling beers. If you haven't been to Plaza dos de Mayo anywhere in Chueca or anywhere near Plaza Santa Ana or even walked down Gran Vía after midnight and not been offered a beer or alcohol lately, then I guess the law really has worked at stopping underage people from buying alcohol.

I'm sorry I'm going to write in Spanish but maybe this way I leave things clearer..Hope you understand it.

Bueno eso de que los bares cierren a las 3 es relativo,como siempre eso puede ser lo oficial pero se de primera mano que eso no es cierto.
Yo creía que no me creías cuando decía que a los 18 es cuando te permiten comprar bebidas alcohólicas,porque seguías insistiendo en que era a los 16 pero bueno.Yo siempre he dado por hecho que era a los 18 años cuando podías comprar bebidas alcohólicas,porque para mi siempre ha sido así ,tampoco hace falta una gran publicidad,si eres mayor de edad te da igual y si eres menor te enteras porque te importa.
Y bueno la ley antibotellón ,tampoco es que halla frenado mucho esto de los botellones más bien ha hecho que halla que esconderse de la policía y eso comprar con antelación las bebidas.
Bueno la ley es la ley pero no todo el mundo la cumple y por eso se siguen vendiendo bebidas a partir de ciertas horas y a menores de edad.La verdad es que la ley antibotellón no permite a ciertos establecimientos como supermercados vender a partir de ciertas horas alcohol para que no sea consumido en la calle pero a los bares y discotecas si que les está permitido ya que la bebida será consumida EL el establecimiento y no en la calle.En fin tampoco necesitas andar por chueca para darte cuenta de que se vende alcohol por la noche(aunque si es un bar es legal)yo no he necesitado ir a chueca(la parte homosexual de Madrid)para darme cuenta de eso.

Well I hope "killerrobot" that you understand what I have written.Sorry for the rest of the users but since no one else is discussing this matter here I have supposed that there wasn't any problem If I wrote it in Spanish since "killerrobot supposely lives in Spain and consequently he must know some Spanish.

 

[killerrobot]

Well I hope "killerrobot" that you understand what I have written.Sorry for the rest of the users but since no one else is discussing this matter here I have supposed that there wasn't any problem If I wrote it in Spanish since "killerrobot supposely lives in Spain and consequently he must know some Spanish.

Well, since you supposedly don't want to answer the question, and attack the fact whether I live in Spain or not - I guess this conversation is over. I sent you a PM- I hope you understand it since its in Spanish and doesn't have much to do with the thread so we can be done hijacking it all.

 

[Macintosh001]

Well, since you supposedly don't want to answer the question, and attack the fact whether I live in Spain or not - I guess this conversation is over. I sent you a PM- I hope you understand it since its in Spanish and doesn't have much to do with the thread so we can be done hijacking it all.

Ok,I'm glad this is over.There is no need to know where the law was approved to obbey a law...That law is now it doesn't matter the past..

Appart from this,I think that the age in the states is too high but the high-age maybe is cnosequence of the view alcohol has for the society.

 

[njmac]

Once an idiot always an idiot, waiting until you're that age isn't going to change anything.

I don't agree. I think that teenagers can do really stupid things that they will grow out of. Yes, some people were always stupid and always will be but most will live and learn. My little brother didn't get to live and learn as he was killed by his 19 year old friend - who was drinking and driving.

 

[windowsblowsass]

at 18 a person is no longer a child, they pay taxes they can vote they can fight and die for our country but as far as the law is concerned they cant have a beer i think that is a bit over the top.

 

[EricNau]

at 18 a person is no longer a child, they pay taxes they can vote they can fight and die for our country but as far as the law is concerned they cant have a beer i think that is a bit over the top.

And at age 6 some children can ride unicycles. My point? Those factors are not related in any way in determining if someone is mature enough to drink alcohol.

 

[Fiveos22]

Ammunition


I've waivered back and forth about this thread for a while (mostly in my head) because I am a bit conflicted about what's being said. On one had we have a group of young adults debating legal drinking ages and freedoms, on another hand we have more mature folk thumping the evils of every drop of alcohol that may wet a dry mouth. On yet another hand we have kids celebrating getting pissed as though it was some merit badge. And then somewhere awash in the middle are the moderation folks.

I'll say that I have sided with everyone at varying points along the way, but I think that something is missing and that something is honest to goodness fact. I will make a poor physician some day if I don't at least say this:

Furthermore, it is a good review of this semester's material for tomorrow's exam.

We have heard the "drinking kills your brain cells" thing enough. That compounded with the "brain doesn't stop developing until 25" argument are getting a little tired and I'm suspicious of the conspicuous lack of facts behind them (the MADD site looks like a high schooler's rhetoric script). That said, EricNau has been fighting quite the fight and I'd like to give him some support.

Alcohol has to potential to be quite dangerous, even in small amounts.


Here are the facts I know:

Fact: Alcohol consumption is treated like a poison in your body, which you liver tries to detoxify. However, even the "detoxified" alcohol is toxic.
So? Your liver starts to accumulate fat while it is detoxifying alcohol. Just a few days of heavy drinking can display fat build-up under the microscope. Chronic heavy drinking causes heavy accumulation of fat on the liver which eventually chokes the blood supply of the liver, causing cirrhosis and liver disease.

1) The liver is an extremely important organ for disgestion and energy distribution, among it hundreds of other actions.
2) Cirrhosis causes the liver blood supply to backup, leading to a huge accumulation of water in the abdominal cavity. This backup can cause swelling of the blood vessels around the esophagus. If this continues long enough, those vessels can rupture leading to vomiting of blood which cannot be repaired.
3) Cirrhosis of the liver can also lead to other problems such as wide spread itching, skin discoloration, and even breast development in men.

Even worse, some people do not detoxify alcohol very quickly. This means that the alcohol is directly toxic until it leaves their body, much lower amounts of alcohol will make these people very ill.

Fact: Alcohol interacts with many pharmacological agents that may affect your well being.
So? In addition to enhancing sedative effects with pain-killers, sedatives and allergy medications, alcohol can make patients who are on certain antibiotics violently ill. LINK


Fact: Alcohol intoxication can lead to vomiting and blackouts.
So? When you are that drunk your reflexes, including your gag reflex, are impaired. If you pass out then vomit (which is all to common after a real bender) you risk choking on your vomit and inhaling it into your lungs. If you do not die from that you will get bacterial growth in your lungs which may cause pneumonia or lung abscess.

Fact: Heavy drinking can lead to Thiamine deficiency (Vitamin B1). Thiamine deficiency causes a syndrome called Wernike-Korsakoff.
So? Wernike-Korsakoff syndrome can lead to permenant amnesia as well as coordination problems. The amnesia is both retrograde (forgetting the past) and anterograde (not being able to make new memories).

Fact: Long term heavy consumption of alcohol has direct cardio-toxic effecs in addition to its malnutrition effects.
What does this cause? This can lead to dilated cardiomyopathy, a condition where the four chambers of your heard become enlarged and flabby.
So? Dilated hearts are the most common cardiomyopathy, but they are often asymptomatic until they are so weakend that they can no longer push blood forward.


And these are just off the top of my head, I'm certain there are pages and pages more. I am not even going to mention the social effects of alcohol because they are blatantly obvious. What I would like to impress upon you is this: more is at stake with rules governing alcohol than just curbing freedoms. I just want people to know the facts.

 

[machonguy]

alcohol has significant risks from impairment, overdose, and brain damage, whereas smoking does not.

Secondly, the drinking age should remain at 21, because this age is backed by science and research. It's that simple.

LOL oh please and smoking is completely healthy with no significant risks. "Science and research" also tells us that tobacco is the leading cause of deaths in America. Let's raise the smoking age to 90! And science and research supports a 25-year-old drinking age, not 21, so you just shot your argument in the foot.

Laws aren't supposed to be the angel on your shoulder. They're for the protection of your country, they aren't supposed to decide what's stupid and what's smart.

My little brother didn't get to live and learn as he was killed by his 19 year old friend - who was drinking and driving.

that's the 19-year-old's fault for driving intoxicated, and your brother's fault for getting in the car with a drunk person in the driver's seat. that's nothing that a 21-year-old isn't capable of, and it's common sense to not get in that car, and no law is going to prevent those things from happening. it's just a stupid decision people will make, whether a law exists or not.

Alcohol has to potential to be quite dangerous, even in small amounts.

Chronic heavy drinking causes heavy accumulation of fat on the liver which eventually chokes the blood supply of the liver, causing cirrhosis and liver disease.

Fact: Heavy drinking can lead to Thiamine deficiency (Vitamin B1).

Fact: Long term heavy consumption of alcohol has direct cardio-toxic effecs in addition to its malnutrition effects.

No evidence for small amounts of alcohol to be "quite dangerous."

If you're going to argue health risks about alcohol, don't waste your time, unless you're going to mention the fact that smoking is much more dangerous, only the effects are more subtle. Yet, the smoking age is 18.

And at age 6 some children can ride unicycles. My point? Those factors are not related in any way in determining if someone is mature enough to drink alcohol.

The point is, 18-year-olds are legally held responsible for making decisions that require just as much, and sometimes more, maturity than drinking alcohol responsibly requires. Riding unicycles doesn't quite qualify as a being responsible as a mature adult.

Once an idiot always an idiot, waiting until you're that age isn't going to change anything.

Not necessarily true.

I know I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but getting drunk or "tipsy" isn't the only issue here. By drinking at such a young age you're causing permanent damage to your brain.

Almost any damage to the nervous system is permanent. The question is how extensive that damage is, and in the case of alcohol consumption that depends entirely upon how much is consumed. And seeing how even alcoholics can graduate with a college degree doesn't quite seem to prove that the damage is significant. Granted, there could be psychological damage, but with how common drinking is, and how relatively uncommon mental disorders are, it's most likely only tied to heavy consumption, and I'm pretty convinced that if someone is driven to abuse, being 18 or 21 won't change their decision. And if brain damage is such a terrible thing, then why isn't there a law prohibiting a certain blood-alcohol level at any time, whether you're 21+ or not? That argument only holds for prohibition, and not to be a broken record either, but prohibition of alcohol without prohibition of tobacco is pretty ignorant.