Update on Russian hostage situation

[Jays]

It is no coincidence that 99% of all terrorist acts are perpetrated by arabs/muslims as shown once more in this horrid act of barbarism they have no value for life, there aim IS to rule the world kill as many Jews, Americans, Russians, Iraq's and since the bombing in Spain also Europeans. don't fool yourself this is just the beginning Europe will see lot more of this kind of acts as islam makes the next move toward ruling Europe, they have been planting the seeds here since the '70's.
I don't hate all muslims but fear that the majority of them support this acts in the name of islam, all arab/muslim leaders talk one why in English and in a totally different way in arabic in there mosques etc.

the problem is that there is no solutions, we cannot and will not eliminate Islam, but they will keep on trying to eliminate us all. the future looks bleak for humanity they are barbaric not only forwards the west but also among themselves the way they treat there women and children but like to portray themselves as poor victims...

there is no way back now, Europe is folded with Moslems and probably within 30 years or so they will rules us all here there is no future in Europe!

 

[jsw]

It is no coincidence that 99% of all terrorist acts are perpetrated by arabs/muslims as shown once more in this horrid act of barbarism they have no value for life, there aim IS to rule the world kill as many Jews, Americans, Russians, Iraq's and since the bombing in Spain also Europeans. don't fool yourself this is just the beginning Europe will see lot more of this kind of acts as islam makes the next move toward ruling Europe, they have been planting the seeds here since the '70's.
I don't hate all muslims but fear that the majority of them support this acts in the name of islam, all arab/muslim leaders talk one why in English and in a totally different way in arabic in there mosques etc.

the problem is that there is no solutions, we cannot and will not eliminate Islam, but they will keep on trying to eliminate us all. the future looks bleak for humanity they are barbaric not only forwards the west but also among themselves the way they treat there women and children but like to portray themselves as poor victims...

there is no way back now, Europe is folded with Moslems and probably within 30 years or so they will rules us all here there is no future in Europe!

Just don't forget that a while back, Europeans ravaged Muslim territories during the Crusades, killing many innocents for no reason. Most Muslims - like most people - are peaceful. The religion isn't particularly violent at all. Sects within it use religion as a mask to "justify" violence, but it isn't condoned by the religion.

 

[belair]

Just don't forget that a while back, Europeans ravaged Muslim territories during the Crusades, killing many innocents for no reason. Most Muslims - like most people - are peaceful. The religion isn't particularly violent at all. Sects within it use religion as a mask to "justify" violence, but it isn't condoned by the religion.

Agreed. Let's not turn this into an anti-muslim thread. These are marginal groups of very deranged people. All the western world is very active trying to get rid of these groups and I think the best way to stop them is to bring education and democracy to those countries.

Knowledge is still the best weapon against stupidity.

 

[wdlove]

Just don't forget that a while back, Europeans ravaged Muslim territories during the Crusades, killing many innocents for no reason. Most Muslims - like most people - are peaceful. The religion isn't particularly violent at all. Sects within it use religion as a mask to "justify" violence, but it isn't condoned by the religion.

It would be nice if it were true. Since 9/11 no Muslim Cleric has stood up publicly to denounce the terrorism against the US and other countries in any way. They can and do easily find a public forum if they feel slighted in any way.

In the end it is God that will judge them, the true God the creator.

 

[belair]

It would be nice if it were true. Since 9/11 no Muslim Cleric has stood up publicly to denounce the terrorism against the US and other countries in any way.

I don't know about the states but here in Europe these attacks were heavily condemned by muslim Cleric. On french televison the spiritual leader of the french muslims spoke out on national TV.
Even more so. You might have heard of the two french journalists that have been taken hostage in Irak. Their kidnappers demanded that the french revoked thir newly passed law forbidding the port of the muslim weil in public schools. The reaction of the french muslims, altough being opposed to that law, was very clear. They demanded immediate release of the captives and demonstrated in Paris the same day stating that this was a french legal problem and not a muslim pretext for killing people.


I am aware that a large part of muslims are moving towards a more radical approach to their religion. Let's just hope this movement slows down and that all religions will speak the languae of reason again.

 

[Dros]

It would be nice if it were true. Since 9/11 no Muslim Cleric has stood up publicly to denounce the terrorism against the US and other countries in any way. They can and do easily find a public forum if they feel slighted in any way.

In the end it is God that will judge them, the true God the creator.

Quick google searching pulled these out (below). You must realize that the media would rather report on any anti-US statements instead of bland denouncements of terrorism. Radical Islamic groups are out there and too widely tolerated, but your statement just isn't true.

Here are some quotes, they are all from or about high level clerics:

"Saudi Arabia’s top cleric used the high point of the annual Muslim pilgrimage to denounce terrorists, calling them an affront to Islam."

"Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of the Al-Azhar mosque of Cairo - which is seen as the highest authority in Sunni Islam - said groups which carried out suicide bombings were the enemies of Islam.* Speaking at the conference in the Malaysian capital, Kuala Lumpur, Sheikh Tantawi said extremist Islamic groups had appropriated Islam and its notion of jihad, or holy struggle, for their own ends."

"Prominent Muslim scholar Dr. Youssef Al-Qaradawi has condemned Al-Qaeda for their fuel tanker suicide bombing of a centuries-old Jewish synagogue on the Tunisian island of Djerba in April 2002."

""Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts."
Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama, on September 15th, 2001 "

""The terrorists acts, from the perspective of Islamic law, constitute the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)."
September 27, 2001 - Fatwa, signed by:
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Countil, Qatar
Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt
Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt
Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria
Fahmi Houaydi, Islamic scholar, Syria
Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council"

""It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to praise those who kill innocent people."
Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan. Cited in the New York Times, September 28, 2001."

""What these people stand for is completely against all the principles that Arab Muslims believe in."
King Abdullah II, of Jordan; cited in the Middle East Times, September 28, 2001."

 

[wdlove]

Quick google searching pulled these out (below). You must realize that the media would rather report on any anti-US statements instead of bland denouncements of terrorism. Radical Islamic groups are out there and too widely tolerated, but your statement just isn't true.

The condemnation still seems to be missing from US Clerics. It is a very positive move forward that clerics in other countries are coming forward. When more tolerance prevails then we will have a safer world.

 

[Dros]

Washington -- Muslim American groups quickly denounced the terrorist attacks against the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington.

The leaders of nine Muslim American groups said in a joint letter to President Bush September 11, "American Muslims, who unequivocally condemned today terrorist attacks on our nation, call on you to alert fellow citizens to the fact that now is a time for all of us to stand together in the face of this heinous crime."

"We hope that the perpetrators of these crimes will be apprehended immediately and swiftly brought to justice. Muslims stand with all other Americans who, on this sad day, feel a sense of tremendous grief and loss," the Muslim American leaders added.

The letter was signed by the leaders of the American Muslim Alliance, the American Muslim Council, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, the Muslim American Society, the Islamic Society of North America, the Islamic Circle of North America, the Muslim Alliance in North America, and American Muslims for Jerusalem. These groups represent most of the seven million Muslims in the United States.

 

[Mark James]

The condemnation still seems to be missing from US Clerics. It is a very positive move forward that clerics in other countries are coming forward. When more tolerance prevails then we will have a safer world.

Are many US Christian clerics publicly condemning America's aggression in the Middle East?

 

[wdlove]

Washington -- Muslim American groups quickly denounced the terrorist attacks against the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington.

The leaders of nine Muslim American groups said in a joint letter to President Bush September 11, "American Muslims, who unequivocally condemned today terrorist attacks on our nation, call on you to alert fellow citizens to the fact that now is a time for all of us to stand together in the face of this heinous crime."

"We hope that the perpetrators of these crimes will be apprehended immediately and swiftly brought to justice. Muslims stand with all other Americans who, on this sad day, feel a sense of tremendous grief and loss," the Muslim American leaders added.

The letter was signed by the leaders of the American Muslim Alliance, the American Muslim Council, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, the Muslim American Society, the Islamic Society of North America, the Islamic Circle of North America, the Muslim Alliance in North America, and American Muslims for Jerusalem. These groups represent most of the seven million Muslims in the United States.

This if good news, it should just be more main stream. I wish that this information would be made known to the general public. To my knowledge the Boston Globe or local radio stations haven't'

If you don't mind, I will E.Mail these to someone to get their onion. Also they could verify the accuracy.

 

[Dros]

This if good news, it should just be more main stream. I wish that this information would be made known to the general public. To my knowledge the Boston Globe or local radio stations haven't'

If you don't mind, I will E.Mail these to someone to get their onion. Also they could verify the accuracy.

I would like to hear that opinion as well. One problem is it is hard for outsiders to know who really is important. With someone like the Pope, it is easy. With Islam, there are all sorts of different clerics saying things.

I don't think mainstream Moslem is entirely blameless, either. Extreme views are too tolerated. Schools teach children to be militants, but then denounce actual acts of terrorism, even though they lay the groundwork.

Just like some Christian and Catholic denominations are too tolerant of extreme groups preaching the killing of abortion doctors. It is an easy trap when you feel an issue is important.

 

[Counterfit]

Are many US Christian clerics publicly condemning America's aggression in the Middle East?

Yes. Are we hearing about it? Nope. Do I know why? Nope.

 

[Jays]

I don't know about the states but here in Europe these attacks were heavily condemned by muslim Cleric. On french televison the spiritual leader of the french muslims spoke out on national TV.

that is the problem like I wrote, the so called Muslim clerics, spokespersons for their community say on tv what the westerners want to hear but they would not dare to say the same things in Arabic on Arabic tv stations, e.g..?
Arafat, it has been documented many times how he answers similar questions in the same day and gives to opposite answers in Arabic and English. the mosques are being used as the main place to incite people against America, Israel Jews etc. and that my friend is a fact! it is stupid religion that is to blame, in that i also except that Christianity was/is not any deferent only more civilized about it.

 

[Jays]

Washington -- Muslim American groups quickly denounced the terrorist attacks against the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington.

The leaders of nine Muslim American groups said in a joint letter to President Bush September 11, "American Muslims, who unequivocally condemned today terrorist attacks on our nation, call on you to alert fellow citizens to the fact that now is a time for all of us to stand together in the face of this heinous crime."

"We hope that the perpetrators of these crimes will be apprehended immediately and swiftly brought to justice. Muslims stand with all other Americans who, on this sad day, feel a sense of tremendous grief and loss," the Muslim American leaders added.

Does the fact that they condemn the attacks show that they really mean what they say? or do they say that because they are scared what will happen to them, reprisals by Americans, same thing in France now.
"one hand is inciting while the other is condemning" a well known tactic of many Muslim leaders...

 

[Chappers]

It is no coincidence that 99% of all terrorist acts are perpetrated by arabs/muslims as shown once more in this horrid act of barbarism they have no value for life, there aim IS to rule the world kill as many Jews, Americans, Russians, Iraq's and since the bombing in Spain also Europeans. don't fool yourself this is just the beginning Europe will see lot more of this kind of acts as islam makes the next move toward ruling Europe, they have been planting the seeds here since the '70's.
I don't hate all muslims but fear that the majority of them support this acts in the name of islam, all arab/muslim leaders talk one why in English and in a totally different way in arabic in there mosques etc.

the problem is that there is no solutions, we cannot and will not eliminate Islam, but they will keep on trying to eliminate us all. the future looks bleak for humanity they are barbaric not only forwards the west but also among themselves the way they treat there women and children but like to portray themselves as poor victims...

there is no way back now, Europe is folded with Moslems and probably within 30 years or so they will rules us all here there is no future in Europe!

Sadly it is this type of ignorance that fuels the press these days. Where did you get this rubbish from?

 

[wordmunger]

It is no coincidence that 99% of all terrorist acts are perpetrated by arabs/muslims as shown once more in this horrid act of barbarism they have no value for life

Actually the correct figure is 97.2 percent, so some muslims apparently do value life.

Seriously--Jays' post is absolute and total nonsense. Don't make up "statistics" to "prove" your bigotry.

Yes, terrorism and terrorists are bad, but they are most certainly not limited to Muslims. Don't forget that prior to 9/11, the worst terrorist incident in American history was committed by a Christian. Arguably, Hitler was a terrorist--certainly not a Muslim, responsible for millions of deaths.

 

[wdlove]

Yes, if your are talking about World history Christians have certainly done there share of brutality.

This situation in Russia is just so sad. When the grief turns to anger, I just pray that it will be used in a positive manner. They will first need to determine the actual perpetrators of the heinous and barbaric act. How this is handled may be a defining moment in the presidency of Putin. If an outside act by muslims, then he may join us in the fight in worldwide terrorism. The only way to defeat these barbaric acts is for the world to work together, so that they have no place to live to plan.

 

[Dros]

Here's an article from CNN today. These were statements on television and columns written for the people of the Arab countries, not news releases for foreigners. To be fair, note that one group that blamed Israelis for the Russian attack.

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) -- Images of dead, wounded and traumatized Russian children being carried from the scene of a rebel school siege horrified Arabs, prompting forthright self-criticism and fresh concern about an international backlash against Islam and its followers.

Arab leaders, Muslim clerics and ordinary parents across the Middle East denounced the school siege that left more than 340 people dead, many of them children, as unjustifiable.

Some warned such actions damage Islam's image more than all its enemies could hope. Even some supporters of Islamic militancy condemned it, though at least one insisted Muslims were not behind it.

The hostage-takers were reportedly demanding the independence of the mostly Muslim Russian republic of Chechnya -- a cause embraced by Arab Islamists.

"Holy warriors" from the Middle East long have supported Chechen fighters, and Russian officials said nine or 10 Arabs were among militants killed when commandos stormed the Beslan school in southern Russia on Friday.

Middle East security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said it was too early to know the nationalities of the Arabs among the dead militants.

However, a prominent Arab journalist wrote that Muslims must acknowledge the painful fact that Muslims are the main perpetrators of terrorism.

"Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture," Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television, wrote in his daily column published in the Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper. It ran under the headline, "The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are Muslims!"

Al-Rashed ran through a list of recent attacks by Islamic extremist groups -- in Russia, Iraq, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen -- many of which are influenced by the ideology of Osama bin Laden, the Saudi-born leader of the al Qaeda terror network.

"Most perpetrators of suicide operations in buses, schools and residential buildings around the world for the past 10 years have been Muslims," he wrote. Muslims will be unable to cleanse their image unless "we admit the scandalous facts," rather than offer condemnations or justifications.

"The picture is humiliating, painful and harsh for all of us."

Arab TV stations repeatedly aired footage of terrified young survivors being carried from the school siege scene, while pictures of dead and wounded children ran on front pages of Saturday's newspapers in the region.

Ahmed Bahgat, an Egyptian Islamist and columnist for Egypt's leading pro-government newspaper, Al-Ahram, wrote that the images "showed Muslims as monsters who are fed by the blood of children and the pain of their families."

"If all the enemies of Islam united together and decided to harm it ... they wouldn't have ruined and harmed its image as much as the sons of Islam have done by their stupidity, miscalculations, and misunderstanding of the nature of this age," Bahgat wrote.

Other Islamists were more cautious in their criticism.

Mohammed Mahdi Akef, leader of Egypt's largest Islamic group, the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood, said the siege did not fit the Islamic concept of "jihad," or holy war, but took care not to characterize it as terrorism.

"What happened ... is not jihad because our Islam obligates us to respect the souls of human beings," Akef said. "Real jihad should target occupiers of our lands only like the Palestinian and Iraqi resistance."

Ali Abdullah, a Bahraini religious scholar who follows the ultraconservative Salafi stream of Islam, condemned the school attack as "un-Islamic" but insisted Muslims weren't behind it.

"I have no doubt in my mind that this is the work of the Israelis who want to tarnish the image of Muslims and are working alongside Russians who have their own agenda against the Muslims in Chechnya," said Abdullah.

Some contributors to Islamic Web sites known for their extremist content praised the separatists and predicted the Islamic fighters from Egypt would avenge the killings of Muslims elsewhere.

Syria condemned the hostage-taking "in the harshest terms," describing it as "a terrorist, cowardly action," the state-run SANA news agency said.

"As a father, I can tell you that all the fathers and mothers in Jordan pray humbly to God to stand by their counterparts in Russia in their grief," Jordan's King Abdullah II, whose wife is expecting their fourth child, said on state-run television.

Mona Khalil, a 48-year-old secretary in Amman, said her heart ached at the sight of the frightened children and their weeping relatives.

"What on earth were the kidnappers thinking about when they took the children hostage?" she asked. "These criminals don't fear God? They have no mercy in their hearts? They don't have children?"

Mohammed Saleh Ebrahim, a 31-year-old Bahraini who was back-to-school shopping in the Gulf island nation with his two daughters, described the hostage-takers as "worse than animals."

"It's because of these people Muslims and Arabs are getting a bad name around the world," he said.

Russia's bloody hostage crisis horrified Arabs, prompting self-criticism and fresh concern about an international backlash against Islam.

 

[mvc]

The people who did this are an abomination. Regardless of what they may have suffered as a people and individually, this can only do harm to their cause and to the image of Islam everywhere.

I cannot conceive of how you go about shooting children in the back, or blowing them up en masse. Can these people still be considered human in any meaningful sense of the word, unless human now just means destroyer?

In the past, these sort of acts of massacre were repaid with total ethnic annihilation, or at least mass enslavement and a scorched earth approach. Whole peoples have disappeared off the face of the Earth for far lesser outrages in ancient times.

I hope this doesn't lead to greater carnage in retaliation.

Who would be a Chechen today?