Upgrading Mac Studio storage

[neomorpheus]

A couple of questions:

1- How do you test these units if the nands needs to be blanks/never used?

2- If i buy a Studio with one drive bay populated, can i simply add a second drive to the empty bay?

3- can you use these drives on mac minis or are they “locked (by apple)” to studios only?

Keep up the good work!

 

[Surenmunoo]

Don't forget, this also lets you take advantage of someone else's buyer's remorse! I got a sweet deal on a Studio M2 Max 64GB from the Apple refurb store... I like to think the original owner returned it after they realized 500GB would not go the distance on a machine with 64GB of RAM...

This upgrade lets me squeeze even more value out of a machine that I didn't have an opportunity to configure at order time... When I bought it I wrongly assumed I could just run it all off a big external SSD like in the Intel days... Turns out that if you need to use kernel extensions, they don't load when booting off external drives due to 'security reasons'...

Strange, I have the M2 Max and boot Sequoia 15.4 from an external TB enclosure with Samsung 990 Pro. Never had a days issue and have been booting off this since the M2 Max came out from Ventura.

 

[Chancha]

Strange, I have the M2 Max and boot Sequoia 15.4 from an external TB enclosure with Samsung 990 Pro. Never had a days issue and have been booting off this since the M2 Max came out from Ventura.

View attachment 2502765

I believe his case isn't just about booting macOS, he said it involves kernel extensions which means an extra layer that the boot sequence needs to go through, of which the modern macOS does not work if done on external.

 

[LavenderCaptain]

That's right - I can boot Sequoia off an external drive, but it falls apart when you install kernel extensions. They'll install, and even show up in the list in settings, but the OS will just keep insisting you need to reboot to complete the install and they won't ever work. The one that hurts me the most is for iSCSI, ATTO Xtend SAN. I think the Paragon NTFS drivers also show up here, along with some other device drivers, but it's been a while since I've last checked. Every so often (for quite a few years now) Mac OS complains that use of kernel extensions is deprecated and should not be used but I just roll my eyes and ignore it because it's not something I can realistically influence.

Fun fact? Same problem happens if you virtualize to a VM using something like VirtualBuddy, but apparently you can do some crazy hex editing on the boot loader to make it work.

 

[mutetourettes]

awesome work folks!!!

I have a few Qs:

If a person had a 2TB machine, could they add just a second single 2tb "01" card to make 4TB? would the original card need reprogramming? how? with the sets that you guys sell is there a lot of difference between the 00 and 01 cards? does an 00 card that is part of a 4tb pair differ from an 00 card that is a standalone 2tb?

Can a person get a few sets of cards for their machine (maybe even different sized sets) and (once they're set up with the right cryptography) swap from one set to another at will?

Can I use someone else's old card in my machine? will it be rejected? does it need any preparation or will it just format and go?

 

[LavenderCaptain]

It came to Canada, I installed them, they work, and they're awesome! Took a whole bunch of pics to show folks the steps.

A few notes from my installation (M2 Max 64GB):

• The included tools and manual were AWESOME!!!
• Installation was very easy overall, if you can install an M.2 SSD you can do this! It takes about 30 minutes if you take your time.
• Apple used loctite or something similar on the screws on the bottom (under the black plastic ring, which is hard plastic and not rubber like I thought it was. I couldn't get under it from the inside of the ring, but I could from the outside. Get the spudger under it like depicted, then go around the circle. It comes off easily, leaving the sticky tape behind)- they were difficult (but not impossible) to get out with the small supplied screwdriver
• The original drive has a heat spreader sticker type thing that you have to carefully remove before you can take the old drive out... It's a bit tricky to do this as it has a strong attachment to the old drive and the socket, but just take your time and it'll come. Ironically, Apple actually puts fake plastic spacers under the sticker where flash chips would go on boards that weren't fully populated. There's also a little foam pad under the drive attached to the logic board. I don't think any of these things make any material contribution to heat spreading.
• The inner frame on my machine covers the 01 drive slightly, so it wasn't possible to take the 00 and 01 stickers off once it was put back in. If you want to take them off, remove them after you screw the drives down but before you put the inner frame back in
• Now I get why WiFi performance on this machine isn't the best - the signal can't go through the aluminum chassis, just the plastic edge trim on the bottom. There are 3 internal antennas (the brass looking things you see around the outer edge when the bottom is off), and they press against the grey plastic trim of the bottom plate to radiate the signals outwards

My Time Machine is on an iSCSI drive that isn't accessible without drivers (and Apple doesn't seem to let you easily copy backup sets anymore), so I tried to get all fancy and use dd in recovery mode to make a bitwise copy of my machine onto an external drive before the replacement... I was able to successfully reapply it, but it wasn't possible to make it bootable because after you wipe the DFU content (including any temporary admin accounts you might have created), there are no admin users left on the machine to change the Startup Disk parameter. In the end, I had to do another DFU (which only takes ~15 minutes rather than the 5 hours Recovery Mode was quoting to reset the machine), make a temporary admin account, install Atto XTendSAN, and then do a Migration Assistant against the network Time Machine drive. It took about 20 hours, but it worked!

So all in all - highly recommended!!! Do it!!! You won't be sorry!!!

 

[Surenmunoo]

It came to Canada, I installed them, they work, and they're awesome! Took a whole bunch of pics to show folks the steps.

A few notes from my installation (M2 Max 64GB):

• The included tools and manual were AWESOME!!!
• Installation was very easy overall, if you can install an M.2 SSD you can do this! It takes about 30 minutes if you take your time.
• Apple used loctite or something similar on the screws on the bottom (under the black plastic ring, which is hard plastic and not rubber like I thought it was. I couldn't get under it from the inside of the ring, but I could from the outside. Get the spudger under it like depicted, then go around the circle. It comes off easily, leaving the sticky tape behind)- they were difficult (but not impossible) to get out with the small supplied screwdriver
• The original drive has a heat spreader sticker type thing that you have to carefully remove before you can take the old drive out... It's a bit tricky to do this as it has a strong attachment to the old drive and the socket, but just take your time and it'll come. Ironically, Apple actually puts fake plastic spacers under the sticker where flash chips would go on boards that weren't fully populated. There's also a little foam pad under the drive attached to the logic board. I don't think any of these things make any material contribution to heat spreading.
• The inner frame on my machine covers the 01 drive slightly, so it wasn't possible to take the 00 and 01 stickers off once it was put back in. If you want to take them off, remove them after you screw the drives down but before you put the inner frame back in
• Now I get why WiFi performance on this machine isn't the best - the signal can't go through the aluminum chassis, just the plastic edge trim on the bottom. There are 3 internal antennas (the brass looking things you see around the outer edge when the bottom is off), and they press against the grey plastic trim of the bottom plate to radiate the signals outwards

My Time Machine is on an iSCSI drive that isn't accessible without drivers (and Apple doesn't seem to let you easily copy backup sets anymore), so I tried to get all fancy and use dd in recovery mode to make a bitwise copy of my machine onto an external drive before the replacement... I was able to successfully reapply it, but it wasn't possible to make it bootable because after you wipe the DFU content (including any temporary admin accounts you might have created), there are no admin users left on the machine to change the Startup Disk parameter. In the end, I had to do another DFU (which only takes ~15 minutes rather than the 5 hours Recovery Mode was quoting to reset the machine), make a temporary admin account, install Atto XTendSAN, and then do a Migration Assistant against the network Time Machine drive. It took about 20 hours, but it worked!

So all in all - highly recommended!!! Do it!!! You won't be sorry!!!

You have a link for the purchase of the drives?

 

[LavenderCaptain]

You have a link for the purchase of the drives?

I got it from https://shop.polysoft.fr/en/

 

[Absrnd]

Important notes :

replacement or upgrade NAND cards for the Mac Studio are not available anywhere at the present.
Apple does not sell them nor intend to.

One could interpolate what occured with the iMac Pro (2017) and the Mac Pro (2019) and imagine that if Apple ships one day a new Apple Silicon Mac Pro, NAND modules similar to those of the Mac Studio would become available on the market.
This is possible but highly hypothetical.

Nevertheless, NAND daughtercards on the Mac Studio use the exact same configurations as those in the M1 MacBook Pro 14" and 16".
And they also use the exact same BGA110 Nands chips used in the iPhone 11 to 13 and all the M1 and M2 Mac line, which are available on the grey market.
One can already upgrade NANDs on a T2 Intel Mac, or on a M1 or M2 Mac, involving soldering BGA chips.

So it would be possible to build a PCB, solder some BGA NANDs on it (for exemple 4x Kioxia KICM229 make a 2TB NAND daugter card), and program them with a JCID programmer.

but no third party company (like OWC) may ever sold this, because those NANDs are very specific to Apple (they are not regular NANDs, the IC integrate NAND with a custom ARM core linked via a PCIe link to specific lines in the M1 CPU).

And manufacturers like Kioxia or Hynix have exclusive contracts with Apple and are forbidden to sell their BGA 110 Nand production to third-party companies.

Please tell me, you have the M4 studio Max upgrade available

 

[gilles_polysoft]

Please tell me, you have the M4 studio Max upgrade available

You mean the one on the right ?

 

[neomorpheus]

No.

Only configurations shipping from Apple are possible.

Single NAND blade configurations are 512GB, 1TB and 2TB. Two NAND blade configurations are 4TB (2 x 2TB) and 8TB (2 x 4TB).

Hello avidrissman and whgmkeller,

To answer on the supported configurations : every Mac Studio supports every configuration from 512 GB to 8TB.

There is no "regular" M1 or M2 Mac Studio, there is only Max and Ultra M1 or M2 inside the MacStudio, and both those SOC have 8x PCIe channel dedicated each one to one NAND. So all MacStudio can support up to 8 TB.


Of course Apple has made so that M1 supports only some models of NANDs, M2 support other models of NANDs, etc.
I have start to build a table, still incomplete, that is available on this post done with @dosdude1 :

Apple Silicon Soldered SSD Upgrade Thread

In this thread, we intend to share all relevant details, resources, and processes involved with upgrading soldered storage on Apple Silicon Macs. Notes All M1 systems utilize BGA110 "S5E" NANDs Some M2 systems use BGA110, while some use BGA315 Table of supported NAND configurations SSD...

forums.macrumors.com

As a general rule :

• Supported NANDs chips are the same as iPhone and iPads NAND chips and only go up to 1TB each NAND
• every "regular" M1, M2, M3, or M4 SOC (even the one in the base 14" and 16" MacBook Pro) only support 2 PCIe 4.0 channels dedicated to Nands, so support only up to 2TB
• every "Pro", "Max" or "Ultra" M1, M2, M3 or, not here yet, M4 SOC, support 8x PCIe lanes, so theorically every "Pro", "Max" or "Ultra" Mac supports 8TB
• BUT a lot of MacBook Pros lacks the traces or chips for more than 4x NANDs.

In fact the "base" 512GB MacStudio M.2 has 1 card with only 2 nands, so it is even slower than the "base" 512 GB M1 which has 4x nands.

I swear that Apple has 2 secret depts that only work on 2 projects:

1- Make the systems as hard as possible to disassemble.

2- Make the systems as hard as possible to expand/upgrade or repair.

Question, if i get a drive for a M1 Max Studio, then decide (against my better judgement, given Apple hostility) to move to a M2 or maybe M4 Max Studio, would that drive be usable on those systems or its permanently tied to the original Mac, in this case, the M1?

 

[gilles_polysoft]

I swear that Apple has 2 secret depts that only work on 2 projects:

1- Make the systems as hard as possible to disassemble.

2- Make the systems as hard as possible to expand/upgrade or repair.

I can't disagree with you on those points.
I've spent hundreds of hours here on these forums helping people get NVMe SSDs working in Macs from 2013 to 2017. The adoption of in-house NVMe controllers (with the 12” MacBook), the apparition of T2 chip and glued iPhone NAND chips has been very disappointing to me.
I've seen incredible design flaws, and I wonder what kind of maniac designed the batteries glued on top of the trackpad, the ultra-complex motherboards, the butterfly keyboards, the LCD screens with EDP cables that tear and are impossible to replace without completely dismantling everything, including ungluing the LCD display panel which is a very difficult task, and clean everything, all that for 2x $5 flex cables...
Sure, the machines are beautiful and powerful, but we're no longer in an era where making computers repairable was a concern.
Long gone are the days when keynote demos consisted of completely disassembling and reassembling a Mac Portable without any tools...

Question, if i get a drive for a M1 Max Studio, then decide (against my better judgement, given Apple hostility) to move to a M2 or maybe M4 Max Studio, would that drive be usable on those systems or its permanently tied to the original Mac, in this case, the M1?

You said it, Apple makes it impossible.

The M1, M2, M3, and M4 chip systems all use exactly the same types of NAND which are all "regular" TLC NAND from selected manufacturers (Hynix, Kioxia, Sandisk/WD, Samsung) packed in a BGA110 or 315 packages with an Apple custom ARM "S5e" processor that makes the interfaces between the Apple SOC and the NAND flash array using a 1 lane PCIe 4.0 link to the SOC.

Our drives (and Apple ones) are just "simple" PCB with voltage regulators and the circuitry for BGA110 (M1) or BGA315 (M2 - M3 - M4) pads array for the NANDs.

For the fun, we have test to make our M1 "Studio Drive" work with Mac Studio M2 by soldering on them some KIC5228 NANDs, which are the exact same as K5A8 NANDs (only package differs).
But it's useless because once we sold KIC5228 NANDs on a M1 drive, it doesn't work anymore on an M1 Mac Studio because this latest only supports KICM22x NANDs.

The problem is inside the M1/M2/M3/M4 SOC firmware : they each one only accepts some types of NANDs, and to my knowledge, supported NANDs change each generation (and even between some models).

I've tried to collect the supported NANDs here :
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-silicon-soldered-ssd-upgrade-thread.2417822/post-32897781

You can see there is no compatibility between each generation.

 

[Absrnd]

You mean the one on the right ?

View attachment 2508859

Is there a site where I can see any updates on the M4 max, instead of pestering you

 

[qriox]

After two monts wait, I did receive my 8TB Studio Drive last Friday past week. On Saturday afternoom, I did the installation by following the installation instructions with no single issue.

The drives were placed in the right position according to the temporary labels, on my M1 Mac Studio Max. I did some testing and everything was looking just fine. I went to sleep, the computer was working smoothly.

Sunday had a busy day, and had returned to my home on the afternoon. When I look to my computer, the light was blinking orange. Tried to start the computer but it was absolutely dead. I did put It on DFU mode and tried the "Revive Mac" and "Restore Mac Factory Settings". None of this options worked at all, computer was completely dead.

I did have to remove the studio drive, put back de original storage card and restored the Time Machine backup.

The computer is now working fine again, but with the 1TB original storage. My Studio drive failed completely after les than one day with the computer mostly sleeping.

Please i need support in order to make it work fine.

I reported the issue to polysoft, who didn't response anything.

It's suposed that have 5 years warranty, my Studio Drive lasted for 5 hours.

I'm really mad and sad.

I do not recomend to waste your money on this product.

Hope PolySoft give me some solution.

 

[gilles_polysoft]

I reported the issue to polysoft, who didn't response anything.

Hello,

Sorry for your problem.
I am late on handling emails, I'm answering to it right now and will arrange a replacement drive. You can also join me on the whatsapp/imessage number I gave to you by email.

 

[qriox]

Gilles, thanks for your response, hope you can help me to make it work as it's supposed to. I really want to become a PolySoft Studio Drive enthusiast!

Best regards

 

[zendoh9]

You mean the one on the right ?

View attachment 2508859

Hi!, Please, and the M3 studio Ultra upgrade? 😃

 

[Surenmunoo]

Do you not do PayPal payments? Also will the M2 Studio drives work in the M4 Studio if I decide to upgrade or will it be new drives needed

 

[gilles_polysoft]

Do you not do PayPal payments?

Hmm... PayPal... I've had a PayPal Pro account for 21 years. But in recent months, PayPal has done everything it can to make my business difficult:
- They blocked 100% of my funds for two months because I had “grown too fast.”
- Despite proof of delivery from UPS, they repeatedly refunded dishonest customers who had received their packages.

So I'm sorry, but I won't be accepting PayPal payments at least for a few weeks. I'm setting up Stripe payments for next week, and I still have the credit card payment module (as well as bank transfer).

Also will the M2 Studio drives work in the M4 Studio if I decide to upgrade or will it be new drives needed

They won't work in the M4 Studio in an easy way (you would need to... change the NANDs !)
But we are thinking of trade-in solutions.

 

[gilles_polysoft]

Hi!, Please, and the M3 studio Ultra upgrade? 😃

Mass production is on its way ! (PCB are finished, components and NAND have been purchased and are being tested and soldered these next 2 weeks. I've already sent a kit for review to a tester.

 

[Surenmunoo]

Hmm... PayPal... I've had a PayPal Pro account for 21 years. But in recent months, PayPal has done everything it can to make my business difficult:
- They blocked 100% of my funds for two months because I had “grown too fast.”
- Despite proof of delivery from UPS, they repeatedly refunded dishonest customers who had received their packages.

So I'm sorry, but I won't be accepting PayPal payments at least for a few weeks. I'm setting up Stripe payments for next week, and I still have the credit card payment module (as well as bank transfer).



They won't work in the M4 Studio in an easy way (you would need to... change the NANDs !)
But we are thinking of trade-in solutions.

Thanks. Any news when the M4 would be available? If soon then I might as well upgrade as I am considering doing that.

 

[mikehalloran]

If a person had a 2TB machine, could they add just a second single 2tb "01" card to make 4TB?

This is not possible, even with the Apple supplied NAND. They are installed in pairs and each NAND must be installed in the proper slot — get it backward and it won’t work.

 

[zorinlynx]

You have to realize just how far Apple goes out of their way to keep you from upgrading storage.

They have to design and implement their proprietary NAND setup, spending tons of money on engineering talent to do so.

When they could have just as easily just put a regular NVMe slot or two on the motherboard and called it a day.

I love Apple's software and how solidly put together their hardware is, but I really wish they knock it off with this nonsense. They have this itch to do things differently than the rest of the industry. Even when they used regular NVMe they made certain to use a different connector with an incompatible pinout.

 

[gilles_polysoft]

If a person had a 2TB machine, could they add just a second single 2tb "01" card to make 4TB? would the original card need reprogramming? how? with the sets that you guys sell is there a lot of difference between the 00 and 01 cards? does an 00 card that is part of a 4tb pair differ from an 00 card that is a standalone 2tb?

There is two conditions :

• the two 2TB cards need to have the same NANDs manufacturer (both need to be Kioxia, or both Sandisk, or both Hynix)
• and yes, both cards need to be reprogrammed...

To date, reprogramming the boards is feasible but extremely costly and complicated: you have to unsolder the 4 chips on each board, reprogram them (in a LB H7 programmer or a JCID P15) and then resolder them.

However, it is technically possible one day to manufacture a device for reprogramming the cards without unsoldering the chips (we've been thinking about this for a while, it could be a module that fits onto LB H7 programmers or a JCID P15).
Then we're thinking about making a trade-in offer for 1TB and 2TB cards (not necessarily linked to the purchase of new kits). And we could resell these used cards at cost price to other customers. This would mean measuring their wear and tear (TBW), but these cards have such a long lifespan that I'd find it stupid to keep them in drawers (apart from the 512GB, which are slow and have no use).
We could go for $125 for the buy-back/sale of a 1TB and $250 for a 2TB.
This would be a win-win situation for everyone: those who resell their unused cards and those who want to buy them cheaply.

Can a person get a few sets of cards for their machine (maybe even different sized sets) and (once they're set up with the right cryptography) swap from one set to another at will?

Different size, no. But supported configuration, yes. Process involves DFU restoration each time...

Can I use someone else's old card in my machine? will it be rejected? does it need any preparation or will it just format and go?

Any card supported in a M1 Mac Studio will work in any M1 Mac Studio.

In fact this is what we do : when new cards come out of the factory, they pass electrical tests, then we test every new card (or new pair of card for a 4TB or 8TB kit) in a Mac Studio before shipping them to a customer which will have of course a different Mac Studio.

 

[Populus]

I was going to ask @gilles_polysoft if they plan to release NANDs for M4 or the upcoming M5 Mac mini, but… after seeing what happened to @qriox I’m not so sure. Reliability is as important as price…