Using iMac as a display for Windows PC

[MikeKulls]

You didn't know that the 5K used a custom TCON. This is not a big secret. It's relevant because this is the sort of stuff you want to mess about with. Your confidence in your knowledge is misplaced.



That would just give you something else to whinge about, 'Apple using non-standard connectors'.



If you can't see the difference between a Retina screen vs standard then you need your eyes tested. Are they critical? No. But neither are faster processors, GPUs, RAM or storage. Do you want to whinge about those too?

Your complaints about the design of the iMac is very much like moaning a Ferrari can't be taken off road. Your demands are not it's design goals. Do yourself a favour and just buy a new monitor.

But if you insist on continuing this path, please post a video link when you get all the stuff you say you can working.

Wow you think you got me because I don't know some obscure detail about 1 monitor. You are trying a bit too hard there Steve. I am more than happy to say there is plenty of stuff I don't know.

If Apple actually did something for their consumers instead of screwing their own customers then I would not be complaining. Dell use 2 display ports, problem solved. Apple could have easily done this, it's an old technique.

I can see the difference with a retina display, I just think it is a pretty useless feature. My Samsung phone has some stupid resolution too and I think it is a complete wank. They would have been much better lowering the res and extending the battery life or having a faster phone.

My complaints about the iMac's design are completely justified. It is an absolute terrible design specifically designed to make it difficult to service and to make none of the parts reusable. It is nothing like complaining a ferrari can't go off road. Quite frankly that is a very dumb comparison.

If I get it working I will post some pics.

 

[steve62388]

Two threads have been merged here, which might cause some confusion.

Wow you think you got me because I don't know some obscure detail about 1 monitor. You are trying a bit too hard there Steve. I am more than happy to say there is plenty of stuff I don't know.

The custom TCON is not important to the average user. But you don't consider yourself the average user, you want to rewire the display. The whole custom TCON thing was widely advertised at the release of the Retina iMac and websites banged on about it in their reviews:-

(Macrumors forums override time links, fast forward to 66m)

https://web.archive.org/web/20141029041233/http://www.apple.com/imac-with-retina/design/

It continues to be advertised today:-

https://www.apple.com/uk/imac/design/

On the other thread (now this one) you thought the reason there was no Target Display was because 'Apple was being Apple', an attempt to rag on Apple when you didn't have a handle on the situation. Another poster had to point out to you that there is a valid technical reason why this is so.

If Apple actually did something for their consumers instead of screwing their own customers then I would not be complaining. Dell use 2 display ports, problem solved. Apple could have easily done this, it's an old technique.

Apple were first to market with 5K, Dell followed after. Previous dual panel monitors were a mess, for example having to reboot to change into resolutions below their maximum. Apple had good reason to go with their own solution. But that's not the point I need to make, it's that you didn't know this simple information. It's just a basic level of knowledge you should have if you intend to rewire your iMac's display.

I can see the difference with a retina display, I just think it is a pretty useless feature. My Samsung phone has some stupid resolution too and I think it is a complete wank. They would have been much better lowering the res and extending the battery life or having a faster phone.

My complaints about the iMac's design are completely justified. It is an absolute terrible design specifically designed to make it difficult to service and to make none of the parts reusable. It is nothing like complaining a ferrari can't go off road. Quite frankly that is a very dumb comparison.

It's an absolutely relevant comparison. You're whinging about the iMac not being something it's not designed to be. You are bringing absolutely nothing to the table that anybody hasn't heard before. It's just that some people like whinging ad infinitum about Apple products not being upgradeable.

If you knew nothing about computers and bought a 21.5" iMac thinking you could upgrade the RAM I would have some sympathy for you.

If you had no free will and couldn't buy anything except Apple products then I would have some sympathy for you.

You know Apple products are not easily upgradeable or serviceable and you still bought one. Then you whinge about it. That's where my sympathy ends.

If I get it working I will post some pics.

I can't assess anything from a picture, it will have to be a video. Don't forget to show the display, webcam, speakers, USB hub and CD drive working.

 

[mpe]

Dell use 2 display ports, problem solved. Apple could have easily done this, it's an old technique.

MST is inferior compared to SST. Obviously, Dell weren't building all-in-one solution and they had no choice. In the absence of proper standard Apple's solution is superior.

 

[MikeKulls]

Two threads have been merged here, which might cause some confusion.



The custom TCON is not important to the average user. But you don't consider yourself the average user, you want to rewire the display. The whole custom TCON thing was widely advertised at the release of the Retina iMac and websites banged on about it in their reviews:-

(Macrumors forums override time links, fast forward to 66m)

https://web.archive.org/web/20141029041233/http://www.apple.com/imac-with-retina/design/

It continues to be advertised today:-

https://www.apple.com/uk/imac/design/

On the other thread (now this one) you thought the reason there was no Target Display was because 'Apple was being Apple', an attempt to rag on Apple when you didn't have a handle on the situation. Another poster had to point out to you that there is a valid technical reason why this is so.



Apple were first to market with 5K, Dell followed after. Previous dual panel monitors were a mess, for example having to reboot to change into resolutions below their maximum. Apple had good reason to go with their own solution. But that's not the point I need to make, it's that you didn't know this simple information. It's just a basic level of knowledge you should have if you intend to rewire your iMac's display.



It's an absolutely relevant comparison. You're whinging about the iMac not being something it's not designed to be. You are bringing absolutely nothing to the table that anybody hasn't heard before. It's just that some people like whinging ad infinitum about Apple products not being upgradeable.

If you knew nothing about computers and bought a 21.5" iMac thinking you could upgrade the RAM I would have some sympathy for you.

If you had no free will and couldn't buy anything except Apple products then I would have some sympathy for you.

You know Apple products are not easily upgradeable or serviceable and you still bought one. Then you whinge about it. That's where my sympathy ends.



I can't assess anything from a picture, it will have to be a video. Don't forget to show the display, webcam, speakers, USB hub and CD drive working.

Like I said before I haven't been in the apple forums for a while after I sold all my rubbish apple products. (that's another story). I had forgotten how hurt you guys get about any criticism of your precious products. That seems odd to me considering how much their is to criticise. I could go on for hours with all the faults with apple products. Every products has faults but apple products those faults are deliberately build in to maximise profit for apple and cause MASSIVE inconvenience for their customers. The thing I find really odd is people like you who even deny those faults exist. Reality is the iMac is very very poorly designed internally. The fact you need to remove the LCD to get to the HDD and CPU is just a joke of poor design and that is just the start. It's odd that on one hand you admit they are unservicable but then refuse to admit it is a poor design. These are 1 and the same thing, you can't have it both ways. Your statement that I am expecting the iMac to be something it is not is a typically stupid statement from you trying to twist the truth. I am expecting it to be servicable and for target display mode to actually be workable.
[doublepost=1469571335][/doublepost]

MST is inferior compared to SST. Obviously, Dell weren't building all-in-one solution and they had no choice. In the absence of proper standard Apple's solution is superior.

It's not relevant. They could have easily made target display mode work if they wanted to. But they didn't want to. It might actually make the screen reusable. That would be a benefit to customers and bad for apple.

 

[steve62388]

Like I said before I haven't been in the apple forums for a while after I sold all my rubbish apple products. (that's another story). I had forgotten how hurt you guys get about any criticism of your precious products. That seems odd to me considering how much their is to criticise. I could go on for hours with all the faults with apple products. Every products has faults but apple products those faults are deliberately build in to maximise profit for apple and cause MASSIVE inconvenience for their customers. The thing I find really odd is people like you who even deny those faults exist. Reality is the iMac is very very poorly designed internally. The fact you need to remove the LCD to get to the HDD and CPU is just a joke of poor design and that is just the start. It's odd that on one hand you admit they are unservicable but then refuse to admit it is a poor design. These are 1 and the same thing, you can't have it both ways. Your statement that I am expecting the iMac to be something it is not is a typically stupid statement from you trying to twist the truth. I am expecting it to be servicable and for target display mode to actually be workable.
[doublepost=1469571335][/doublepost]

It's not relevant. They could have easily made target display mode work if they wanted to. But they didn't want to. It might actually make the screen reusable. That would be a benefit to customers and bad for apple.

You tend to ignore postings pointing out the gaps in your knowledge.

Clearly you know nothing of what the term 'design' means. The iMac has been designed to fulfil a particular role and it does that admirably (you will note that I did not use the word 'perfectly'). How many people on the planet do you think want to waste their time with a soldering iron in the back of their iMac instead of doing the sensible thing and just buying a new monitor? It must be vanishingly small. At no point has Apple claimed the current units are upgradeable boxes of wonder to take you into the 22nd century. I don't care one jot that I can't upgrade the CPU or HD or whatever, and the massive majority of people who buy iMacs don't either. You do. If it winds you up so much why on earth would you buy one, did someone force you? Do you feel like you made a bad decision despite having all the relevant information at your finger tips? Blame yourself for that.

Apple's philosophy is similar across their whole product line, and it seems to be working quite well for them at the moment.

You clearly have a vendetta against Apple, and that's fine you're allowed that. But an Apple oriented website is a very odd place to bring it. It very much hints of masochism.

 

[MikeKulls]

You tend to ignore postings pointing out the gaps in your knowledge.

Clearly you know nothing of what the term 'design' means. The iMac has been designed to fulfil a particular role and it does that admirably (you will note that I did not use the word 'perfectly'). How many people on the planet do you think want to waste their time with a soldering iron in the back of their iMac instead of doing the sensible thing and just buying a new monitor? It must be vanishingly small. At no point has Apple claimed the current units are upgradeable boxes of wonder to take you into the 22nd century. I don't care one jot that I can't upgrade the CPU or HD or whatever, and the massive majority of people who buy iMacs don't either. You do. If it winds you up so much why on earth would you buy one, did someone force you? Do you feel like you made a bad decision despite having all the relevant information at your finger tips? Blame yourself for that.

Apple's philosophy is similar across their whole product line, and it seems to be working quite well for them at the moment.

You clearly have a vendetta against Apple, and that's fine you're allowed that. But an Apple oriented website is a very odd place to bring it. It very much hints of masochism.

I ignored your point about gaps in my knowledge because it was a plain stupid point. All people have gaps in their knowledge. Bringing this up continuously just shows you are struggling to find something more valid to raise. I thought by silently ignoring that I could save you some face and let you silently drop it but no you had to continue on that theme.

I'm no design expert but I know when I see something good and bad. And there is no question the iMac is a horrid design. As I said removing the bare LCD screen to change the HDD simply IS bad design. There is no escaping that. They could have easily made it so the back comes off or just had a cover for the HDD like a laptop does. As for the soldering iron, I am well aware this is a fringe case and I am not saying apple should have supported that sort of mod. You are twisting what I have been saying yet again. I repeat, I was not expecting them to allow me to make those sort of mods, I know that is a hack. What I was expecting was for the iMac to be easy to service/upgrade and for target display mode to be workable. These are not unreasonable expectations. I was just pulling apart my Toshiba work laptop yesterday and man that is an awesome design. Undo a bunch of screws and the whole bottom cover comes off the laptop. Everything is there to easily remove, the HDD, CD, motherboard, CPU, wifi card, ram. I pulled out the CD drive and inserted a HDD cradle I got off ebay for $12. Now my laptop has an SSD and a mechanical drive. These kinds of servicability things ARE useful and I think reasonable to expect in computers. Apple don't like you doing that because it might stop you from buying a new iMac.

I find it interesting that you don't care you can't upgrade the HDD. Are you on drugs? This is an amazingly useful thing to do. Some of the things you apple die hards say just makes me shake my head. Upgrading the HDD is something you should expect to be able to do. On what planet can not being able to do this be a good thing? The first thing everyone here at work does is upgrade their HDD in their laptop.

I actually laughed out loud when I read your statement "working quite well for them at the moment". That is MY point. It is working quite well for apple, but not their customers.

 

[steve62388]

I ignored your point about gaps in my knowledge because it was a plain stupid point. All people have gaps in their knowledge. Bringing this up continuously just shows you are struggling to find something more valid to raise. I thought by silently ignoring that I could save you some face and let you silently drop it but no you had to continue on that theme.

Your knowledge gap on Apple products is considerable. You are the one that decided to proclaim not having target display mode on the 5K was 'Apple being Apple' without actually having any understanding of the technical implications. It reminds me of the the quote, 'It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt'.

I'm no design expert

Clearly.

And there is no question the iMac is a horrid design.

You think it's a horrid design because you like to poke around in the back with a soldering iron. You're just about on your own with that one. Millions and millions of other customers have no interest in this oddball behaviour and are very happy leaving their iMac well alone. That's the vast majority of customers and that makes the iMac a good design for their use. Most people that don't like the design are normally smart enough not to buy one.

These kinds of servicability things ARE useful and I think reasonable to expect in computers.

You might be some sort of tech geek that enjoys doing this sort of thing but it's just not what the vast majority of people do.

But I assume you knew all this and yet still bought one. So I wonder if Apple are foolish for designing a build you don't like or you are for buying one? I know who won out of that transaction.

I find it interesting that you don't care you can't upgrade the HDD. Are you on drugs? This is an amazingly useful thing to do. Some of the things you apple die hards say just makes me shake my head. Upgrading the HDD is something you should expect to be able to do. On what planet can not being able to do this be a good thing? The first thing everyone here at work does is upgrade their HDD in their laptop.

You have old fashioned thinking and times have moved on. External drives, NAS or cloud storage is the direction of travel. You are under the mistaken impression that most people are capable of opening up a computer to upgrade it, they are not.

The next version of OS X will automatically upload unused files to the cloud to free up local space on your computer. That puts paid to any further claims you may have.

I actually laughed out loud when I read your statement "working quite well for them at the moment". That is MY point. It is working quite well for apple, but not their customers.

So we have established you know little about Apple products and what 'design' means. Now we can add the economics of business to the list.

Apple is a business just like any other. Because they are a public listed company they are legally obliged to maximise profit for their shareholders (obviously not at the expense of breaking other laws). Businesses are interested in their customers wellbeing only so far as it allows them to sell more products, there are a couple of exceptions to this but not many. It just so happens that Apple's philosophies do chime with a massive amount of people and that has enabled them to become one of the most profitable companies in the world. You think these two things are not connected, whereas it's plainly obvious they are which is why Apple has grown to massive proportions. If people didn't like the product, they wouldn't buy it (unless they're stupid).

 

[MikeKulls]

Your knowledge gap on Apple products is considerable. You are the one that decided to proclaim not having target display mode on the 5K was 'Apple being Apple' without actually having any understanding of the technical implications. It reminds me of the the quote, 'It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt'.



Clearly.



You think it's a horrid design because you like to poke around in the back with a soldering iron. You're just about on your own with that one. Millions and millions of other customers have no interest in this oddball behaviour and are very happy leaving their iMac well alone. That's the vast majority of customers and that makes the iMac a good design for their use. Most people that don't like the design are normally smart enough not to buy one.



You might be some sort of tech geek that enjoys doing this sort of thing but it's just not what the vast majority of people do.

But I assume you knew all this and yet still bought one. So I wonder if Apple are foolish for designing a build you don't like or you are for buying one? I know who won out of that transaction.



You have old fashioned thinking and times have moved on. External drives, NAS or cloud storage is the direction of travel. You are under the mistaken impression that most people are capable of opening up a computer to upgrade it, they are not.

The next version of OS X will automatically upload unused files to the cloud to free up local space on your computer. That puts paid to any further claims you may have.



So we have established you know little about Apple products and what 'design' means. Now we can add the economics of business to the list.

Apple is a business just like any other. Because they are a public listed company they are legally obliged to maximise profit for their shareholders (obviously not at the expense of breaking other laws). Businesses are interested in their customers wellbeing only so far as it allows them to sell more products, there are a couple of exceptions to this but not many. It just so happens that Apple's philosophies do chime with a massive amount of people and that has enabled them to become one of the most profitable companies in the world. You are under the mistaken impression these two things are not connected, whereas it's plainly obvious they are which is why Apple has grown to massive proportions. If people didn't like the product, they wouldn't buy it (unless they're stupid).

No, I think it is a horrid design because it is a horrid design. As I keep saying (and you keep failing to get), it's the serviceability I don't like. What about that do you not understand? Many many people extend the life of their products by upgrading the HDD, Ram, CPU. This can save you thousands (especially with apple's prices!!). Changing CPU is slightly more advanced but even my grandma could change ram and hdd on a real computer. I am really at a loss to understand how being unable to change these things easily is a good thing. It is simply not a good thing and only benefits your overlords. If you don't want to do it then you don't have to, but some of us would like to. It's not a difficult change.

As for cloud being your savior, what a joke. Where do you come up with this stuff? Yeah, I'm going to store terrabytes of data in the cloud where it is really slow to access. The funny thing is you think this proves your point. pffft

Where do I start with your stupid idea about businesses looking after themselves. Yes, lots of them do it but why on earth would someone say that is a good thing???? What drugs are you on?

 

[MikeKulls]

Hey Steve,you've admitted that apple are screwing their own customers for the perceived benefit of their shareholder. Are you ok with that just because, hey, it's business? Are you ok with all companies that take advantage of you or do you just take it from Apple? I didn't realise just how much you can get screwed by apple until we had this iMac issue. With my PC it was getting slow so I went to a PC shop and bought some new items for $500. The PC will last me at least 5 years like that, maybe with some more ram at some point. With the iMac we basically need to buy an entire new computer and macs start around $1700 but the specs are much much lower than my PC. Even at $2200 we still only get 8GB ram and 1TB drive with an i5 and NO SSD!!. My PC has 24GB ram with i5 and 1TB drive, ssd and with a 23" screen vs 21". Oh but the mac has a retina display

 

[MikeKulls]

And you can only put 16GB ram in it!!! Holy crap, is this 2016?? You need to spend $2700 to get one that will take 32GB. Damn!!! And it only comes with 8GB ram for that price!! This gets better and better. Maybe I am reading this wrong but even if you spend a wopping AU$3600 you still only get 8GB ram and an i5 processor!!!

 

[steve62388]

No, I think it is a horrid design because it is a horrid design. As I keep saying (and you keep failing to get), it's the serviceability I don't like. What about that do you not understand? Many many people extend the life of their products by upgrading the HDD, Ram, CPU. This can save you thousands (especially with apple's prices!!). Changing CPU is slightly more advanced but even my grandma could change ram and hdd on a real computer. I am really at a loss to understand how being unable to change these things easily is a good thing. It is simply not a good thing and only benefits your overlords. If you don't want to do it then you don't have to, but some of us would like to. It's not a difficult change.

You mention your grandma, you mention you. But you cannot bring yourself to say that the vast majority of people are capable of upgrading their own computer. That is because you know they can't. If these people want an upgrade they take it to a service agent. What you consider an 'easy' upgrade (although we have already established you over estimate your abilities) is obviously not what the vast majority of owners would think.

Since early 2009 iMacs have included a minimum of 2Gb of RAM. These iMacs can still run the latest version of OS X, El Capitan. The stated system requirements of OS X are modest and have always been more realistic than Windows. A seven year support life for a computer is good, and not being able to run the latest OS does not immediately consign it to the scrap heap. This reduces the need for the upgrade cycle that you are stuck in. In most cases after seven years everything would be due for replacement inside a Windows based PC.

You might want to repeatedly open up and play with your iMac. If this is a major point for you (certainly you're very angry about it), why would you buy one? You went to buy a car, had all the necessary information supplied by the manufacturer, knew it wasn't one you wanted but bought it anyway, then later on you had buyer's regret. Would you really be angry at the manufacturer or would you be angry at yourself? It's more unhinged to be directing all this hate towards Apple based on your own decision. I had to use a car analogy because anytime anybody mentions Apple you can't see for red mist.

As for cloud being your savior, what a joke. Where do you come up with this stuff? Yeah, I'm going to store terrabytes of data in the cloud where it is really slow to access. The funny thing is you think this proves your point. pffft

iMacs come with disks up to 3TB in size. External disks are available. Who really has terabytes of personal data? An incredibly small subset of users.

1. People that own lots of porn.
2. People that work heavily with pictures or video. These professionals will often use external disks without much complaint. The iMacs Thunderbolt interface is more suited to these tasks than USB.
3. People that run media servers. In most cases it would be more appropriate to store this data on a NAS.

Where do I start with your stupid idea about businesses looking after themselves. Yes, lots of them do it but why on earth would someone say that is a good thing???? What drugs are you on?

Hey Steve,you've admitted that apple a screwing their own customers for the perceived benefit of their shareholder. Are you ok with that just because, hey, it's business? Are you ok with all companies that take advantage of you or do you just take it from Apple? I didn't realise just how much you can get screwed by apple until we had this iMac issue. With my PC it was getting slow so I went to a PC shop and bought some new items for $500. The PC will last me at least 5 years like that, maybe with some more ram at some point. With the iMac we basically need to buy an entire new PC and they start around $1700 but the specs are much much lower than my PC. Even at $2200 we still only get 8GB ram and 1TB drive with an i5. My PC has 24GB ram with i5 and 1TB drive with a 23" screen vs 21".

The list of stuff you have difficulty with is getting long. We have Apple products, what the word 'design' means, the economics of business and now we have to add reading comprehension.

I have explained that if Apple customers agreed with you they wouldn't buy the product, and Apple has a very large number of customers. The concept is not complicated and I have been as clear as possible. I'm afraid I can't help you further if you can't grasp this simple explanation of how businesses sell products. Only a fool would buy something they hated.

I am not going to disagree with you that Apple products cost more than others, but this is a new argument you are trying to introduce into the conversation so I won't be biting. Apple products are aimed at a certain sector of the market: people that value a range of different things over the cheapest option, they are capable and prepared to pay for it. This market has made Apple one of the most profitable computer companies in the world.

 

[MikeKulls]

You mention your grandma, you mention you. But you cannot bring yourself to say that the vast majority of people are capable of upgrading their own computer. That is because you know they can't. If these people want an upgrade they take it to a service agent. What you consider an 'easy' upgrade (although we have already established you over estimate your abilities) is obviously not what the vast majority of owners would think.

Since early 2009 iMacs have included a minimum of 2Gb of RAM. These iMacs can still run the latest version of OS X, El Capitan. The stated system requirements of OS X are modest and have always been more realistic than Windows. A seven year support life for a computer is good, and not being able to run the latest OS does not immediately consign it to the scrap heap. This reduces the need for the upgrade cycle that you are stuck in. In most cases after seven years everything would be due for replacement inside a Windows based PC.

You might want to repeatedly open up and play with your iMac. If this is a major point for you (certainly you're very angry about it), why would you buy one? You went to buy a car, had all the necessary information supplied by the manufacturer, knew it wasn't one you wanted but bought it anyway, then later on you had buyer's regret. Would you really be angry at the manufacturer or would you be angry at yourself? It's more unhinged to be directing all this hate towards Apple based on your own decision. I had to use a car analogy because anytime anybody mentions Apple you can't see for red mist.



iMacs come with disks up to 3TB in size. External disks are available. Who really has terabytes of personal data? An incredibly small subset of users.

1. People that own lots of porn.
2. People that work heavily with pictures or video. These professionals will often use external disks without much complaint. The iMacs Thunderbolt interface is more suited to these tasks than USB.
3. People that run media servers. In most cases it would be more appropriate to store this data on a NAS.



The list of stuff you have difficulty with is getting long. We have Apple products, what the word 'design' means, the economics of business and now we have to add reading comprehension.

I have explained that if Apple customers agreed with you they wouldn't buy the product, and Apple has a very large number of customers. The concept is not complicated and I have been as clear as possible. I'm afraid I can't help you further if you can't grasp this simple explanation of how businesses sell products. Only a fool would buy something they hated.

I am not going to disagree with you that Apple products cost more than others, but this is a new argument you are trying to introduce into the conversation so I won't be biting. Apple products are aimed at a certain sector of the market: people that value a range of different things over the cheapest option, they are capable and prepared to pay for it. This market has made Apple one of the most profitable computer companies in the world.

More awesome replies Steve. You would be surprised how many people make changes to their computer. Even if they get their friends to do it. I know that might seem odd to someone like you with such limited computer knowledge but everyone is not like you. Many many mac users want to upgrade but can't. Most people I know who own macs have outdated macs that are very slow. They want to update but with the outrageous prices they are stuck with their lemons. A mac with 2GB of ram cannot reasonably run the latest OSX. I ask again if you are on drugs? Ours was slow as running on 8GB and has been for years. Even my mac mini was incredibly slow with 8GB ram 6 years ago. I did the right thing getting rid of that thing before it got unsaleable. I did discover the best thing about mac, it has good resale value. It was hardly usable but some idiot paid $400 for it!!!

As for being stupid for buying it, yes I was. But it hardly had a big sticker on it saying it takes hours to clean dust out of the CPU fan or that it was internally designed to stop you upgrading everything.

BTW, I love your little list you are compiling of the things I have trouble with. It really did make me laugh out loud. Keep going. You do appear to have trouble with reality.

The reason I bought up the price of apples (or the lack of specs for price) was to point out that upgrading IS something many apple owners would like to do. Due to the ridiculous prices many people will get specs that are quite low and an upgrade will be necessary. My mac mini needed a ram upgrade after only a few months. So did it's tiny HDD. Then the video got too slow after about a year and I sold it. 1 year!!!!

At the end of the day there is nothing positive you can say about not being able to upgrade the HDD easily. There is NO positive side to that. You can try to twist things and you have done an admiral job of trying to convince yourself this is a good thing but quite simply it is NOT good. There is no planet where that is a good thing. You have not been able to come up with one single reason why it is a good thing? Give me just one reason Stevie.
[doublepost=1469621987][/doublepost]BTW, you didn't answer my question about being ok with apple screwing you over. You all ok with that? How about when other companies screw you over? That's business right?

 

[steve62388]

More awesome replies Steve. You would be surprised how many people make changes to their computer. Even if they get their friends to do it. I know that might seem odd to someone like you with such limited computer knowledge but everyone is not like you. Many many mac users want to upgrade but can't. Most people I know who own macs have outdated macs that are very slow. They want to update but with the outrageous prices they are stuck with their lemons.

So are you saying the vast majority of people are capable of upgrading their own computer or not? I don't disagree that some can, but that's just some and for the majority they take their computer to a service agent or end up replacing the whole thing.

As the life cycle of computers becomes ever longer upgrades become less relevant.

Ours was slow as running on 8GB and has been for years. Even my mac mini was incredibly slow with 8GB ram 6 years ago.

There isn't going to be anybody here that believes that.

It was hardly usable but some idiot paid $400 for it!!!

This sort of language shows the intense hatred you have for Apple. It means you will not be able to think rationally when it comes to this topic.

As for being stupid for buying it, yes I was.

Well that's your fault then. Be angry at yourself, you have enough to go around.

My mac mini needed a ram upgrade after only a few months. So did it's tiny HDD. Then the video got too slow after about a year and I sold it. 1 year!!!!

No-one is going to believe that either, unless you bought the completely wrong product for your needs. That's your fault again. But you wouldn't make that mistake would you? You're supposed to be an 'expert'.

At the end of the day there is nothing positive you can say about not being able to upgrade the HDD easily.

It's just completely irrelevant for most people. Apple products are not designed for you, thank goodness we live in a world of choice. But don't be angry because other people have different priorities and then come to an Apple orientated website to pointlessly rage about making a decision you regret.

BTW, you didn't answer my question about being ok with apple screwing you over. You all ok with that? How about when other companies screw you over? That's business right?

Two times I have already explained as simply as possible and am not going to try again. You just don't understand how business works, I'm afraid I can't help you.

I'm going to leave you alone to allow you to calm down. Don't forget to post that video.

 

[bent christian]

Does anyone know if the 2015 1920x1080 21.5" model supports Target Display Mode? I can't find any info on this any where and don't have Thunderbolt cable to test.

 

[steve62388]

Does anyone know if the 2015 1920x1080 21.5" model supports Target Display Mode? I can't find any info on this any where and don't have Thunderbolt cable to test.

Here is the info you need:- https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204592

 

[bent christian]

Here is the info you need:- https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204592

Yes, I know what Apple has posted on the topic. I am asking for real-world experience.

The argument here seems to be that Apple discontinued TDM, because 4K and 5K screens can be driven under the current protocol - that it was not a market-driven/profit-driven decision. If the discontinuation of TDM is not market-driven, why would 1920x1080 models not support TDM?

 

[steve62388]

Yes, I know what Apple has posted on the topic. I am asking for real-world experience.

Oh, well you said you couldn't find any info anywhere. I don't have a 2015 21.5" so can't help with any 'real-world experience'.

 

[CWallace]

Dell got around that by running 2 display ports. This is something that Apple could have done if they wanted to.

Dell's monitor doesn't have a GPU or a TCON in it. Each DP input drives half of the monitor. I'm confident the TCON is why you can't input an external video source, but even if you could, that would require both of the TB ports on the iMac (as well as both TB ports on the Mac connecting with it) which means you could not use any other TB device. That might not be an issue with many, but for those of us who do have TB devices (like myself) it would be an unusable situation.

They could have also run it at a lower resolution for external connections.

Which would look terrible due to pixel interpolation.

They could have invented a faster connector.

DisplayPort 1.3 had not been released when the iMac 5K was launched. So Apple would have had to develop a proprietary connector that would only work with other Macs, which would have been counterproductive since Apple knew DP1.3 was coming. Such a connector would also not have allowed you to connect your PC to the display.

Intel is not going to support DP 1.3 in their next chipset, but they will support 2xDP1.2 over a single TB connector. So Target Display Mode should come back with the next iMac 5K and you might be able to connect a PC to it if that PC supports the new TB standard.

 

[MikeKulls]

So are you saying the vast majority of people are capable of upgrading their own computer or not? I don't disagree that some can, but that's just some and for the majority they take their computer to a service agent or end up replacing the whole thing.

As the life cycle of computers becomes ever longer upgrades become less relevant.



There isn't going to be anybody here that believes that.



This sort of language shows the intense hatred you have for Apple. It means you will not be able to think rationally when it comes to this topic.



Well that's your fault then. Be angry at yourself, you have enough to go around.



No-one is going to believe that either, unless you bought the completely wrong product for your needs. That's your fault again. But you wouldn't make that mistake would you? You're supposed to be an 'expert'.



It's just completely irrelevant for most people. Apple products are not designed for you, thank goodness we live in a world of choice. But don't be angry because other people have different priorities and then come to an Apple orientated website to pointlessly rage about making a decision you regret.



Two times I have already explained as simply as possible and am not going to try again. You just don't understand how business works, I'm afraid I can't help you.

I'm going to leave you alone to calm down. Don't forget to post that video.

So let me get this right.
You agree the mac is not serviceable, hence agree it is a horrible design
You agree Apple are screwing their customers
You think that is ok because hey it is big business.
You think Apple users are the lower end of users who don't know anything about PCs and don't have much needs when it comes to hardware.

It is interesting you say I hate macs. I most definitely hate some things about macs. I did initially like my mac mini for the few months that it functioned well. When I put 8GB in it it went well for a few months but the new update most definitely did hobble the graphics. I liked the simplicity of it, the size and the UI was pretty good. It was also linux like system which is very handy. Unfortunately the networking was horrible (this was well documented at the time) and I couldn't run 3 screens. The maker of the USB device I was using to run the third screen said Apple was actively trying to stop their device working on Macs. That's when I sold it. With the iMac I certainly like the simplicity and neatness of it and there isn't much on the market that looks as good as the iMac. I just hate some of the stupid unnecessary stuff they do. This stuff really inconveniences their own customers and is clearly done because they think it will maximise their profit. I don't know of another company that does that to the degree Apple do.

With regards the lifecycle of computers becoming longer ... that means upgrades are more relevant. If you have a computer for longer then you are more likely to need upgrades.

Like a lot of Apple products when I bought the mac mini it did function well. But with the next major update the graphics was definitely jumpy. Their was no major difference in the UI to explain why it got so jumpy and their was no sticker on it that said "Hey, we're going to hobble this thing in 6 months"

You have explained several times how you think business works. I'm not sure why you think I didn't read that or don't understand that?? I just disagree with it. Businesses don't survive by screwing over their own customers. This is why android has such a huge share of the market. Back when iPhones came out everyone at my worked was getting one. The WIFI point at work started crashing with all the iPhones. Out of all of those people all the tech savy people have moved to Android or Windows. All the less advanced users stuck with Apple. Point is screwing people over loses you customers. It wouldn't be difficult for Apple to make their iMac just that little bit more serviceable. Then they would appeal to more users.
[doublepost=1469656800][/doublepost]

Dell's monitor doesn't have a GPU or a TCON in it. Each DP input drives half of the monitor. I'm confident the TCON is why you can't input an external video source, but even if you could, that would require both of the TB ports on the iMac (as well as both TB ports on the Mac connecting with it) which means you could not use any other TB device. That might not be an issue with many, but for those of us who do have TB devices (like myself) it would be an unusable situation.



Which would look terrible due to pixel interpolation.



DisplayPort 1.3 had not been released when the iMac 5K was launched. So Apple would have had to develop a proprietary connector that would only work with other Macs, which would have been counterproductive since Apple knew DP1.3 was coming. Such a connector would also not have allowed you to connect your PC to the display.

Intel is not going to support DP 1.3 in their next chipset, but they will support 2xDP1.2 over a single TB connector. So Target Display Mode should come back with the next iMac 5K and you might be able to connect a PC to it if that PC supports the new TB standard.

Pixel interpolation is actually pretty good on modern LCDs, especially if you have a 5k display. You could easily run at 2:1 ratio and it would still have a res of 2500 pixels across. More than enough and would look fine. I agree that inventing a new connector wouldn't have been a good idea but I was just throwing out ideas. My point is they could have got it working in some form if they wanted to. Whatever is inside they could have used 2 DPs to interface with their standard.

 

[mpe]

Whatever is inside they could have used 2 DPs to interface with their standard.

Ideally they should have used DP 1.3 and enable target display port (but no device on the market would be able to drive it). In absence of the standard the chosen solution (single stream used internally running outside DP 1.2 specs) is the second best even if the cost they had to pay is absence of the target functionality. Frankly, I don't think it is that important feature for most people.

 

[MikeKulls]

Ideally they should have used DP 1.3 and enable target display port (but no device on the market would be able to drive it). In absence of the standard the chosen solution (single stream used internally running outside DP 1.2 specs) is the second best even if the cost they had to pay is absence of the target functionality. Frankly, I don't think it is that important feature for most people.

It actually gets quite a few hits on google and personally I think it is something that a LOT of people would use if it worked well. If like me you've got an iMac and the internals are broken or just too slow (or both in my case) but you are happy with the screen then it makes perfect sense to use it as a screen. You could use it with a Mac Mini or a PC and you would still retain the good looks of the iMac. It would save a lot of LCDs going to the tip. Reality is a full HD screen is perfectly usable today and will be for a long time to come. I think a lot of things get to a certain point where the tech is good enough and improvements are nice but not essential. I think screens reached that point 8 or 10 years ago.

My initial thread that got deleted was asking about hacking the iMac to run as a screen (remove the mac motheroard etc). A lot of people said this was pointless but it's very difficult to get a PC screen with speakers, webcam, USB, microphone etc built in. None of them look as good as the iMac. The only one we found my wife said it was too ugly. People have actually been doing it with the G4, putting the intel NUC into them. So my idea isn't as crazy as some people here seem to think.

 

[MikeKulls]

Yes, I know what Apple has posted on the topic. I am asking for real-world experience.

The argument here seems to be that Apple discontinued TDM, because 4K and 5K screens can be driven under the current protocol - that it was not a market-driven/profit-driven decision. If the discontinuation of TDM is not market-driven, why would 1920x1080 models not support TDM?

Oh, I missed this post initially. From Apple's website it appears all newer iMacs don't support TDM. hmmmmmm I guess that pretty much disproves the argument it was discontinued for technical reasons.

 

[bent christian]

Oh, I missed this post initially. From Apple's website it appears all newer iMacs don't support TDM. hmmmmmm I guess that pretty much disproves the argument it was discontinued for technical reasons.

The Apple website product specs are not always accurate. They often list inaccurate max RAM specs on some of their products. For example, the current 27" is listed as being able to run 32GB. It can actually take 64GB. This is why I am asking about real world experience.

 

[CWallace]

My point is they could have got it working in some form if they wanted to. Whatever is inside they could have used 2 DPs to interface with their standard.

Yes, they could have just run the panel at 30Hz (like the Dell) and allow it to take an external source, but they instead went with 60Hz for a better viewing experience and the inability to take an external source. Speaking as an owner of the original 2014 and latest 2015 iMac 5K, I am glad they went with the 60Hz option because the whole point of a 5K display, IMO, is the viewing experience.

After all, there are 5K panels on the market (at 30Hz) that can be used with Macs that have 2xTB or 2xDP1.2 ports (like the MacBook Pro and Mac Pro) as well as PCs.

 

[bluespark]

The reason is that it is Apple. Being able to use the iMac as a monitor might allow you to reuse the display instead of purchasing a new iMac. It might even allow someone to switch to PC. Previous macs did allow this but it was far from workable.

I beg to differ regarding previous Macs. I use my mid-2010 27" iMac every day as a PC display via Target Disk Mode and its performance for this purpose is spot-on perfect. In fact, the loss of that ability in newer iMacs is the only reason I haven't upgraded. In the event future iMacs regain this ability, I will be at the store on the first day to purchase one.