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You guys tend to be a bit too fussy and take a joke too seriously. :D
cool.. you guys tend to not be interested in how something is built.. in and of itself..
me? i design/build stuff every day.. it's interesting to me.. so i talk about that kind of stuff.

not sure why this leap always has to happen:

Telling me that the nMP is user upgradeable collides JUST A BIT :p

... because i never said anything about upgrading in that post.. i don't even care about upgradeable computers.. it's not a selling point to me.

if that's something that's very important to you then cool.. i'm not knocking that at all..
but it'd be sweet if you could somehow realize that maybe we're talking about and/or concerned with two different things instead of pretending like we're talking about the same thing and arguing over it.
 
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Only that there were reasons the cheese grater could no longer be sold due to safety requirements, something about being able to stick fingers into the back and have a "dangerous" computer fan severe a finger...

See from MacworldUK http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/...ro-europe-1-march-macworld-exclusive-3423807/
It was just about a protective layer, a grid on top of the fan. Which became a requirement in EU for all computer makers. And because Apple was about to end MP 5.1 production, they just took the machine off the market instead of altering it.
 
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It's worth reading, especially when they discuss the "lack" or "modest" update the 5,1 was, and the worry about Apple retireing the Mac Pro Line, and Tim Cook puts his two cents in. Hindsight is always 20/20, the old adage states... knowing what we know now, a week after the show dropped it is still worrisome to me, it's almost as if from 2012 (when they began working on the 2013 MP) they have really been chasing their tails or at best butterflies... here we are 4-5 years later which is an eon in tech terms. Apple really has to pull something serious out of the bag or it really has lost its way.

Sorry for the ending rant, just seems we are right where we were a few years ago.
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It was just about a protective layer, a grid on top of the fan. Which became a requirement in EU for all computer makers. And because Apple was about to end MP 5.1 production, they just took the machine off the market.
And some power shielding that they were worried about. It's insane that they didn't just use a fan with a guard like you said, instead just pull out. Insane.
 
Apple is working on standalone display that has 8K resolution. Typically for Apple they allow only 60Hz of refresh rate in their own displays.

None of current generation GPUs have HDMI 2.1 which is required for external connection to drive that refresh rate at that resolution. Thunderbolt 3 is not capable of driving 8K@60Hz, at all, over single cable.

So if anything next gen. Mac Pro will have - it has to be next generation connection.

This is the part that is questionable, in the context of Apple ecosystem. And before you will think that MP 7.1 will be Cheese Grater again, bare this point in mind. 8K Display from Apple. It has to connect not only to Mac Pro, but also to Macbook. Its design philosophy at Apple.
 
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Apple is working on standalone display that has 8K resolution. Typically for Apple they allow only 60Hz of refresh rate in their own displays.

None of current generation GPUs have HDMI 2.1 which is required for external connection to drive that refresh rate at that resolution. Thunderbolt 3 is not capable of driving 8K@60Hz, at all, over single cable.

So if anything next gen. Mac Pro will have - it has to be next generation connection.

This is the part that is questionable, in the context of Apple ecosystem. And before you will think that MP 7.1 will be Cheese Grater again, bare this point in mind. 8K Display from Apple. It has to connect not only to Mac Pro, but also to Macbook. Its design philosophy at Apple.
I'd prefer regular Display port connector, because of the locking mechanism. Now that's Pro. HDMI is good for cheap home theatres. I suppose it is possible to run DP 1.4 with regular DP connector.
 
It has to connect not only to Mac Pro, but also to Macbook. Its design philosophy at Apple.
Does it? Does a spec for thunderbolt 4/next gen I/O even exist (honest question). I wouldn't be surprised if the "Pro" display is limited to the Mac Pro, but it's still anyone's guess.
 
However, there is no use of iFixit ranking if you can't find the replacement parts. ;)

There were newer generation Xeons that were socket-compatible with the nMP (Haswell E5-2600 series) so you could upgrade if you wanted (OWC also offered a turn-key upgrade service). But yes, there were no GPU upgrades available (due to both the design of the cards and the thermal issues).


Take the time to do something great!? Therein lies the problem: unconstrained design; overthinking; form over function and certainly performance. Too much time to market means obsolete out of the gate. Repeating the mistake is not the way to fix this. They should rush an interim solution to market rather than take their time.

This is Apple we're talking about - and not just Tim Cook's Apple, but Steve Job's, as well. Even the 5,1 Mac Pro was something far more elegant than any PC workstation of similar vintage. The last thing Apple is going to do is release a "bland black box" with a nest of cables and cacophony of cooling fans inside like a Dell or HP - especially at a price point a fair bit higher.
 
Does it? Does a spec for thunderbolt 4/next gen I/O even exist (honest question). I wouldn't be surprised if the "Pro" display is limited to the Mac Pro, but it's still anyone's guess.
It will be ridiculous if iMac will have 8K display, yet the display itself will be reserved only to Mac Pro. Think about it.
I'd prefer regular Display port connector, because of the locking mechanism. Now that's Pro. HDMI is good for cheap home theatres. I suppose it is possible to run DP 1.4 with regular DP connector.
I am not saying that the monitor in question will be HDMI, or DP. I am talking only about what is required to drive 8K@60Hz.

The connector will be USB-C. What it will use as a connection - that is different question. And yes, the GPUs have to have enough horsepower to drive it, and they will have to have proper connection, to the display.

So I think this rules out "modularity" most people here thinking are about, in case of Mac Pro.

Unless next gen. GPUs will ditch DP and HDMI in favor of USB-C.
 
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The 5K iMac uses a special proprietary connection, unless it's been updated. Right now the 8k imac for all intents is vapor. The Dell 8K uses dual display ports (meshing together right?). Which was what some were pointing to the issue with updating the Thunderbolt Display to 5k and not having the proper bandwidth.

The 8k imac was first rumored to be coming in late 15 early 16 according to an Apple insider report (http://appleinsider.com/articles/15...ac-8k-later-this-year-display-partner-lg-says), which has come and gone. We'll see what the summer and fall bring but I don't think (by apple's own admission) that we'll see the "Pro" display this year let alone in an imac form factor.

I don't know, I'll admit I am disenchanted (though hopeful, but don't want to be taken on another 4-5 year ride of not knowing if they are serious about the Pro line). I am trying to keep expectations reasonable, I think we'd be more apt to see a 5k display (LG panel in an Apple enclosure).
 
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OK, I didn't know that's what you were referring to. Are we over-zealous here in Europe? Well, maybe.

Any doubts still if the 8K display will be USB-C? For sure it will. Will it be TB3? Or TB3.1/4? Maybe Intel updates TB3 specs to include DP1.4, but even DP1.4 only gets there with compression.
Maybe dual DP1.4 streams.
Odd times now.
 
Apple is working on standalone display that has 8K resolution. Typically for Apple they allow only 60Hz of refresh rate in their own displays.

The Dell 8K is 60Hz, as well. So are all the 5K monitors.


The 5K iMac uses a special proprietary connection, unless it's been updated.

That is correct - the 5K iMac has a custom timing controller to allow 60Hz.


The Dell 8K uses dual display ports (meshing together right?).

Also correct. The Dell uses MST via dual DisplayPort 1.3 ports (so each port handles half the display - just as their 5K screen does via DP 1.2). And Thunderbolt 3 only supports DisplayPort 1.2, so you will not be able to drive the Dell 8K display (at 8K) with a Mac's TB3 ports.

So if Apple is indeed working on a standalone 8K display, it's probably only going to work with the new Mac Pro which will use two dedicated Display Port 1.3 or 1.4 ports to drive it (rather than using the TB3 ports to carry the video).

And if there is going to be an 8K iMac Pro, then it to would use a custom controller chip to drive the internal display and would need a dedicated DP subsystem to drive an external monitor.
 
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Would really like to see your opinions on the rumour of mMP "sharing parts with their own server". Any suggestions about what it would look like? Or would it just be a pipe dream?
 
Apple is working on standalone display that has 8K resolution. Typically for Apple they allow only 60Hz of refresh rate in their own displays.

It is highly unlikely Apple is working on a standalone 8k display. 8K requires two DP v1.4 cables to work. Do you really think Apple is working on a monitor that requires two cables as a solution? Does that sound like anything Apple has done.

For solutions that require two (or more) DisplayPort cables there are always 3rd party solutions. Just like Apple leaned on 3rd party 4K at 4K launch. Just like Apple leaned on 3rd party 5K for first year or so. Those are actually doable on Thunderbolt. In fact, TB makes 5K doable with one cable. 8K does not.

If 8K follows the same track record as 4K and 5K the initial models will be high priced and then the prices will relatively crater over the next 18 months. There is little to no rational reason for Apple to rush into that market. Apple likes setting a price point and sticking to it. A market where you know in advance there will be rapid communization is one to avoid. At least until the dust settles.


I don't think TBv4 is coming any time soon (even with a 2018 time frame). This switch to Type-C seems to be causing too much drama. More certified DPv1.4 pass through would seem more likely ( v3.1 or v3.5).



None of current generation GPUs have HDMI 2.1 which is required for external connection to drive that refresh rate at that resolution.

DisplayPort v1.3 spec came out in 2014 and it wasn't until around 2016-7 that saw GPUs with it. v1.4 was rolled up into that so it looks good at 2016 -> 2016-7 but is mainly compression add-on, not a major baseline bandwidth increase.

Where the Major top end GPUs are in the design cycle will matter. 2018 seems a bit early ( designs for 2018 GPU should be in feature freeze phase). There are TV only GPUs that are likely extremely synched up with the HDMI cycle, but there are lots of other "adapt to change" inputs into the top end computer GPUs.


Thunderbolt 3 is not capable of driving 8K@60Hz, at all, over single cable.

So if anything next gen. Mac Pro will have - it has to be next generation connection.

Holding up the Mac Pro for top end GPU with HDMI 2.1 would be extremely dubious. It is already late. Way past late. Adding yet another delayed spec -> delayed implementation dependency would be silly. Sure the MP probably keep at least one HDMI socket in light of HDMI 2.1 but I doubt they go there on version 1 of the new system design.

There already is a 'work around' for 8K. It is MST DPv1.4 streams. Working with the ones that folks are going to buy over the next 18 months is an issue too.

Looking in the Mac ecosystem market there aren't any other Macs except for an updated Mac Pro that could drive the display. What rational sense does it make for Apple to build a display that only 1-2% of Macs can drive? None. They aren't going to sell that many at all.


The new, singular display (extremely likely docking station) that Apple will may do with likely work with the rest of the "used by Pros" market that Apple described. That is a market more dominated by MBP and iMac in terms of numbers than it is the Mac Pro. Throw the Mac Mini on top for a small increment if they manage to upgrade it too in the next 18 months. Those other 3 Mac Products would be the major driver for a "display" return on investment; not the Mac Pro.
 
DP 1.4 allows for 8K@60Hz with Display Stream Compression. HDMI 2.1 also allows for full 8K@60Hz.

The theory is that if Intel will update the Thunderbolt protocol and connection to DP1.3 over single stream, you can use two streams in single cable of Thunderbolt to power up 8K@60Hz.
Would really like to see your opinions on the rumour of mMP "sharing parts with their own server". Any suggestions about what it would look like? Or would it just be a pipe dream?
The more I think of it, the more UNLIKELY for me appears that the Mac Pro will be conventional tower, with replaceable parts.

That does not rule out modularity. Think of something in between Cheese Grater and Trash Can MP.
 
DP 1.4 allows for 8K@60Hz with Display Stream Compression. HDMI 2.1 also allows for full 8K@60Hz.

The theory is that if Intel will update the Thunderbolt protocol and connection to DP1.3 over single stream, you can use two streams in single cable of Thunderbolt to power up 8K@60Hz.
The more I think of it, the more UNLIKELY for me appears that the Mac Pro will be conventional tower, with replaceable parts.

That does not rule out modularity. Think of something in between Cheese Grater and Trash Can MP.
Pike himself also describes the mMP as "basically a PC with next gen EFI firmware". Not sure what this means.
 
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....
Also correct. The Dell uses MST via dual DisplayPort 1.3 ports (so each port handles half the display - just as their 5K screen does via DP 1.2). And Thunderbolt 3 only supports DisplayPort 1.2, so you will not be able to drive the Dell 8K display (at 8K) with a Mac's TB3 ports.

It is a bit murky on whether the DisplayPort pass through mode of the TBv3 controller can handle passing through DPv1.3 ( or v1.4 ) or not. Even if it doesn't there is likely a bump coming to TB that will add that in. ( There was a bump to TB controllers in the year before TBv2.0 that handled this pass through.

"... Redwood Ridge maintains feature compatibility, but you get official support for DisplayPort 1.2 (and 4K resolution) if you're using a DisplayPort monitor. This extension of DP 1.2 support does not apply to Thunderbolt displays or DP 1.2 displays connected to a Thunderbolt chain however. ... "
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7049/intel-thunderbolt-2-everything-you-need-to-know

Apple mainly skipped and/or downplayed this as it had no impact on the TB delivery of remote DP. That was all their TB Display docking station did so only really pointed out a limitation.


So if Apple is indeed working on a standalone 8K display, it's probably only going to work with the new Mac Pro which will use two dedicated Display Port 1.3 or 1.4 ports to drive it (rather than using the TB3 ports to carry the video).

That would be a million times better than waiting an even longer extended amount of time for some HDMI or DP update to trickle down to the GPUs. The Mac Pro is already spectacularly late. Holding the whole thing up to wait for some corner case 8K solution is a bonehead move. Especially, if going to get back to upgrading the Mac Pro on a more regular basis (and not hiding in a hole for 2-3 years at a time. ). 8K is likely to be primarily a hack for 2-3 years. Apple can catch the elegant single cable solution at the end of that.


And if there is going to be an 8K iMac Pro, then it to would use a custom controller chip to drive the internal display and would need a dedicated DP subsystem to drive an external monitor.

The GPUs in the iMac now somewhat groan under the 5K resolution. Where is all the extra horsepower coming from in the next year or so? The iMac isn't as badly in comatose state as the Mac Pro in terms of updates but it is on a bad trend line. Again, 8K is more likely a "push out" factor than one of getting the Macs back on a more reasonable upgrade schedule.

At the distance an iMac normally sits from a user is the bump from the pixel density of 5K + 27" going to be all that more "Retina" than that of 8K + 27" ? If keeping the same pixel density then will need a new screen size (and case). Is that really going to work in terms of lower volume on increased costs ?
 
The Apple's cards are going to have PCIe connections, just probably not a the standard socket. That is only really needed for just one socket.

If there is a second GPU socket that could be standard. For example, if it is just a "compute" GPU it doesn't necessarily have to do video out. ( or some proprietary back-channel link. The time Apple spent on hooking up Crossfire on the MP 2013 I thought was a waste of time from day 0. The graphics stack doesn't support so it is really only a Windows thing; which is silly for a Mac. ).

If it is a secondary GPU card with output to more legacy standard video out ports, then the video probably isn't heading for TB. Most folks picking non-Apple GPU cards (if an option) probably aren't picking Apple only TB display docking stations either. If the physical ports are on the card, it is just far less Rube Goldberg to just hook them up to the display. Folks looking for cheaper and interchangeable probably are going the that path.

Interesting idea, an internal PCIe slot just for compute. It gets around the DisplayPort requirement for thunderbolt. A problem would be which cards are supported and if they need non-apple provided drivers.

I think a better solution (from Apples perspective) would be to support GPUs over thunderbolt 3. Then you don't have potentially unwanted space inside the case and don't have to worry about power and cooling of arbitrary cards. The viability of this depends on how much compute tasks like FCP rendering are PCIe bandwidth constrained. It also doesn't solve the driver problem.
 
Pike himself also describes the mMP as "basically a PC with next gem EFI firmware". Not sure what this means.

Wishful thinking that Apple is going to adopt UEFI in its entirity so that Apple has exact same boot environment as Windows so that can buy general market Windows GPU cards for Macs. In other words, that Apple is going to bend over backwards to greatly enable the Hackintosh market. ..... Don't hold your breath.
 
Considering we have no actual proof that Apple is working on an 8K display, seems weird to be so preoccupied with the technical requirements.

It's worth reading, especially when they discuss the "lack" or "modest" update the 5,1 was, and the worry about Apple retireing the Mac Pro Line, and Tim Cook puts his two cents in. Hindsight is always 20/20, the old adage states... knowing what we know now, a week after the show dropped it is still worrisome to me, it's almost as if from 2012 (when they began working on the 2013 MP) they have really been chasing their tails or at best butterflies... here we are 4-5 years later which is an eon in tech terms. Apple really has to pull something serious out of the bag or it really has lost its way.

Sorry for the ending rant, just seems we are right where we were a few years ago.
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And some power shielding that they were worried about. It's insane that they didn't just use a fan with a guard like you said, instead just pull out. Insane.

People seem to forget that the kvetching about pro Macs started all the way back in late 2010, and even in 2011 there were reports Apple was considering scrapping the line because even back then it was clear iMacs were increasingly filling the niche and laptops in general were eating the desktop market (which had been happening since the mid-2000s.)
 
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Wishful thinking that Apple is going to adopt UEFI in its entirity so that Apple has exact same boot environment as Windows so that can buy general market Windows GPU cards for Macs. In other words, that Apple is going to bend over backwards to greatly enable the Hackintosh market. ..... Don't hold your breath.
What's so bad about Apple's proprietary EFI anyway? Other than it makes parts-swapping a bitch.
 
So what parts will be shared between mMP and Apple's home brew server(a.k.a. nXserve)? Dual LGA 3467 sockets? Hot swappable cooling? Dual redundant PSU? Loadz of PCIe slots?
I laughed.
 
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Interesting idea, an internal PCIe slot just for compute. It gets around the DisplayPort requirement for thunderbolt. A problem would be which cards are supported and if they need non-apple provided drivers.

It is primary design for compute with an "display out" option. :) The Tesla M40 card still has an external facing edge but that whole edge is devoted to blowing air out ( no output sockets). Not sure how entangled macOS OpenCL stack is ( I imagine the Metal one is ) with initiating the graphics stack on a card, but conceptually enabling a "compute only" card should be simpler than a compute + graphics card. If it is not there is something 'off' with the functional decomposition/decoupling inside of macOS.

But yes the graphics out option opens the supported cards issues and whether that is going to be a healthy ecosystem or not.



I think a better solution (from Apples perspective) would be to support GPUs over thunderbolt 3. Then you don't have potentially unwanted space inside the case and don't have to worry about power and cooling of arbitrary cards. The viability of this depends on how much compute tasks like FCP rendering are PCIe bandwidth constrained. It also doesn't solve the driver problem.

That would help with keeping the system on the desktop in a less obtrusive form. But as you point out the graphics driver problem isn't solved. In fact, it gets more complex because now have to also support hot plugging. So it is even more software and opens up the random hacked windows card #42 that will be thrown at macOS.

There is a even deeper problem. One reason why the dual GPU solution found a limited audience is that the implementation that Apple did was a "copy and then work and then copy back" GPGPU solution. For real "general purpose" ( the GP in GPGPU) you need a flatter, more uniform memory access solution. Apple pragmatically stopped on OpenCL 1.2 which stops way short of that. If want to broaden the use cases then need more of an architecture where the local GPU RAM is used more as a cache ( or general access store) than the model where "copy , work , and perhaps copy again " dominates.

So the Thunderbolt model where bandwidth is low doesn't really broaden the scope of what they were covering. So if less software segments pick it up ...... are they really in a better off position? Gaming would trend up ( and a few other application segments ), but is that really what going after with Mac Pro????

The reason why some folks are trying to drag compute+graphics onto a super large single card is because of the latency/bandwidth constraints to either another card ad/or main memory. Thunderbolt just cranks that higher.


Thunderbolt opens more potential system that will buy a card. But I don't think really helps with the leading root cause of that single, monster card driver issue than ran into.
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From PikerAlpha's Xeon iMac blog post reply:


Yes, the servers for datacenters and the next Mac Pro may share some parts, but it remains to be seen if Apple is really willing to sell the same hardware to us.

Together with the news of apple cutting ties with Supermicro, this move would be intriguing.

Plus, without knowing the validity of his source, the mMP will be "much more like a PC".

Amazon , Google, Facebook , and Microsoft all have custom boards for their data center. How many of them sell them? Or create products with them to share parts? Zero. It is not necessary if you have a large scale data center operation to be a major cloud player. Not ordering from Supermicro can simply mean just going to order from same customer shop(s) that one of those other major players is ordering from with perhaps a slightly different modification/customization.

This is wishful thinking hooey. Apple isn't going to be trying to put data center server nodes boards onto people's desktops. It just isn't going to happen unless someone in Cupertino is smoking major drugs.


I suspect someone has tech porn lust for a solution with a LGA 3647 (Socket P) solution for a Mac Pro as opposed to the extremely more likely Socket R LGA 2066 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGA_2066 ) that the Skylake-W variant of Xeon E5 1xxxx v5 will use. Apple is likely going after modestly high core counts at faster base clock and higher Turbo deltas than after maximum core count target ( with a substantive trade-off for lower base and turbo. ). Servicing 100-1000's of independent users doing independents tasks over a long distance internet link is a substantively different workload than a single user , mostly single fccus tasks , from local data sources.

For the vast majority of "pro" users sitting at a single user workstation, Socket P doesn't make sense. For a small, small subset, sometimes, but in general no. The Mac Pro isn't going to be aiming at some sub 1% of the market.
 
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