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MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

filmak said:
I think that they are clearly not targeting desktops with the new MP version.
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Well, I’d love to have something with wheels on my desk, so I can fk with it to break the monotony of the day.
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barmann said:
In 2012 an entry level, classic Mac Pro with comparable specs ( for the time ) and usability was about $2500 .
Now it's $6000 , and you lose built in storage capacity and a bunch of ports .
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They removed internal SATA expansion, but the idea is you expand storage with PCIe SSD. That’s why the 8 slots aren’t ridiculous overkill, IMO.
 
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Look, its simple, Apple feel they can overprice because they can. It’s not right, but what are you gonna do? Only time will show them the error of their ways.

Maybe next year they will say, ok, we know a lot of customers want expandability but within budget. A new Mac Pro could be re-engineered next year with said Core i9 components as a more palatable entry level model. It could be priced within the 2,000 to 3,000 sweet spot.

It would be a win-win for Apple. They surely know a lot of their users are OCD and it would push them to buy accessories such as XDR, keyboard, mouse. I still don’t think that XDR display is gonna fly off the shelves though.
 
goMac said:
Again, there’s no path to make a cheaper version. They can’t cut a single CPU in half. Even if they shred their margins there is no way they get close to $3000. The lowest competing price anyone has posted so far is $4500, and that’s taking a decent hit in build quality.

On the older boxes they could offer a cheaper option by cutting the CPU count in half and selling a single CPU option. They don’t have that flexibility any more.
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On the older boxes they managed to sell a dual CPU design , using just one CPU , at a lower price . Good times ... ;)

As for CPUs - what is Apple paying for Xeons ?
I doubt they shop at newegg, the new MP is Xeon only, and presumably will sell pretty well .
Plus Mac Pros keeping to use Intel has some bargaining power .

So whatever prices you see or imagine for Xeon CPUs, Apple isn't paying even close to that .

Same goes for built quality - if you only have one product in a segment, one design, and you don't change it frequently, you can easily afford to spend a bit more on R&D and tooling and still come out ahead .
 
Mr. Dee said:
Look, its simple, Apple feel they can overprice because they can. It’s not right, but what are you gonna do? Only time will show them the error of their ways.
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The best anyone has been able to put together from a competitor is a little more than $1000 under their price. And it's hard to even then say Apple is overpriced. The case is much higher quality than HP's and probably more expensive. They have more PCIe slots.

While Apple is probably still squeezing a bit more profit from the Mac Pro, there is no way it could be $3000 like people are suggesting. Not unless Apple basically starts burning money on every one.

Mr. Dee said:
Maybe next year they will say, ok, we know a lot of customers want expandability but within budget. A new Mac Pro could be re-engineered next year with said Core i9 components as a more palatable entry level model. It could be priced within the 2,000 to 3,000 sweet spot.
Click to expand...

The i9 isn't compatible with a Xeon design, and has much fewer PCIe lanes. If there were going to do an i9 tower (which seems unlikely), it wouldn't be related to the Mac Pro.

Mr. Dee said:
It would be a win-win for Apple. They surely know a lot of their users are OCD and it would push them to buy accessories such as XDR, keyboard, mouse. I still don’t think that XDR display is gonna fly off the shelves though.
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It seems like some of their users have OCD about not being able to buy a Mac Pro when there are many other alternatives if you just need a single slot.

And I doubt if someone is buying a $2000 box they're going to turn around and buy a $5000 display. Plus the XDR already works with the rest of Apple's product lineup.
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barmann said:
As for CPUs - what is Apple paying for Xeons ?
I doubt they shop at newegg, the new MP is Xeon only, and presumably will sell pretty well .
Plus Mac Pros keeping to use Intel has some bargaining power .

So whatever prices you see or imagine for Xeon CPUs, Apple isn't paying even close to that .

Same goes for built quality - if you only have one product in a segment, one design, and you don't change it frequently, you can easily afford to spend a bit more on R&D and tooling and still come out ahead .
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Apple's competitors aren't even getting anywhere close to a $3000 price. I don't know where this magical thinking is that Apple can get close to $3000 when HP or Dell can't.

Even the custom builds don't hit the $3000-or-under mark. And that's using lower quality components.
 
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They are simply targetting the money, nothing else. Anyone with a great need of a new MP, with the cash available, will pay a couple of thousands more to get it. When this kind of client ends, they will just offer a) a better mini or a 6,1 similar one or b) lower the price of the 7,1 entry model.
 
filmak said:
They are simply targetting the money, nothing else. Anyone with a great need of a new MP, with the cash available, will pay a couple of thousands more to get it. When this kind of client ends, they will just offer a) a better mini or a 6,1 similar one or b) lower the price of the 7,1 entry model.
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they will never make a 6,1 again. That was a design choice that cost a lot of money to make and was a one off because it was too expensive to redo designing for every new iteration of cpus and chipsets.

If they maintain updates on these systems you will see off lease macpros in 3-5 years. This is where people will find reduced pricing. You will then see off lease macpros every year as some companies will update to the new revisions.
 
filterdecay said:
they will never make a 6,1 again. That was a design choice that cost a lot of money to make and was a one off because it was too expensive to redo designing for every new iteration of cpus and chipsets.

If they maintain updates on these systems you will see off lease macpros in 3-5 years. This is where people will find reduced pricing. You will then see off lease macpros every year as some companies will update to the new revisions.
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Not exactly a 6,1, but something filling the gap like a better mini.

Anyway, never say "never" because this was also the case for the cube who later became a tube (6,1).:)
 
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filmak said:
Not exactly a 6,1, but something filling the gap like a better mini.

Anyway, never say "never" because this was also the case for the cube who later became a tube (6,1).:)
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the cube was steve jobs mistake. He learned the lesson then tim apple repeated it.
 
goMac said:
The best anyone has been able to put together from a competitor is a little more than $1000 under their price. And it's hard to even then say Apple is overpriced. The case is much higher quality than HP's and probably more expensive. They have more PCIe slots.

While Apple is probably still squeezing a bit more profit from the Mac Pro, there is no way it could be $3000 like people are suggesting. Not unless Apple basically starts burning money on every one.



The i9 isn't compatible with a Xeon design, and has much fewer PCIe lanes. If there were going to do an i9 tower (which seems unlikely), it wouldn't be related to the Mac Pro.



It seems like some of their users have OCD about not being able to buy a Mac Pro when there are many other alternatives if you just need a single slot.

And I doubt if someone is buying a $2000 box they're going to turn around and buy a $5000 display. Plus the XDR already works with the rest of Apple's product lineup.
[doublepost=1560792853][/doublepost]

Apple's competitors aren't even getting anywhere close to a $3000 price. I don't know where this magical thinking is that Apple can get close to $3000 when HP or Dell can't.

Even the custom builds don't hit the $3000-or-under mark. And that's using lower quality components.
Click to expand...
Please don’t read my replies using tunnel vision. I said, they could use the same tower form factor for an expandable, relatively affordable, Core i9 entry level SKU. The case might not be expensive, but Apple themselves proved they could easily gut the case and replace it with Intel components for the Intel developer kits back in 2005.

Your conclusion is I should not have a problem with price. It’s sad that you rather sit back and let Apple just do as they please. Anyway, I’ll let the market speak for itself. But even the key influencers in the Apple community, I am not talking about cheerleaders like Gruber are saying the company is out of touch with this one.

Many here are claiming the Mac Pro is for high graphics and video production, yet look at what Apple is using as an example of the XDR:

A $6,000 display for writing code. You don’t even need this for Photoshop.

B741B30D-9C07-4DEA-9401-1DDC868AC7C3.jpeg
 
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Mr. Dee said:
...Many here are claiming the Mac Pro is for high graphics and video production, yet look at what Apple is using as an example of the XDR:

A $6,000 display for writing code. You don’t even need this for Photoshop.

View attachment 843470
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And it has restrictions, P3 is not as good for photos as adobe RGB or ProPhoto, it is an Apple product so there will be inadequate settings and no buttons, no multiple inputs, no calibration device (like the EIZOs) built-in etc. I'm very curious about the result and maintenance of the factory calibration of this display too, waiting for the reviews...
 
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Mr. Dee said:
Please don’t read my replies using tunnel vision. I said, they could use the same tower form factor for an expandable, relatively affordable, Core i9 entry level SKU. The case might not be expensive, but Apple themselves proved they could easily gut the case and replace it with Intel components for the Intel developer kits back in 2005.
Click to expand...

I don't think the same tower form factor would make sense. There would be way too much empty space, and that tower seems very expensive to produce. The resulting machine would not at all be price competitive.

The Intel developer kit was not a real product. That's why they reused the G5 case.

Mr. Dee said:
Your conclusion is I should not have a problem with price. It’s sad that you rather sit back and let Apple just do as they please. Anyway, I’ll let the market speak for itself. But even the key influencers in the Apple community, I am not talking about cheerleaders like Gruber are saying the company is out of touch with this one.
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Like I've been saying, it's not just Apple. Both Dell and HP both sit in the same league. They're not all the exact same price, but everyone is within +/- $1000 of each other.

You're blaming Apple for where the industry sits. What you're actually saying is "I don't want a workstation." And if you don't want a workstation, you're in the wrong forum. The Mac Pro has always been a workstation first since it launched.

There is no i7/i9 tower. There never has been. The product you are talking about has never existed throughout Apple's use of Intel CPUs.

Mr. Dee said:
Many here are claiming the Mac Pro is for high graphics and video production, yet look at what Apple is using as an example of the XDR:

A $6,000 display for writing code. You don’t even need this for Photoshop.
Click to expand...

Maybe the problem is with the ad. Because the specs of the display make it completely unsuitable for anything other than high end graphics and video production.

Apple still sells the Ultrafine. It's not like this is the only display they sell.
 
Mr. Dee said:
Look, its simple, Apple feel they can overprice because they can. It’s not right, but what are you gonna do? Only time will show them the error of their ways.

Maybe next year they will say, ok, we know a lot of customers want expandability but within budget. A new Mac Pro could be re-engineered next year with said Core i9 components as a more palatable entry level model. It could be priced within the 2,000 to 3,000 sweet spot.

It would be a win-win for Apple. They surely know a lot of their users are OCD and it would push them to buy accessories such as XDR, keyboard, mouse. I still don’t think that XDR display is gonna fly off the shelves though.
Click to expand...

I don't see people that are currently complaining over the cost of the 2019 Mac Pro suddenly purchasing a $5000-$6000 display to go with their $3,000 "bargain" Mac Pro. A keyboard and a mouse? Pretty sure those would already be in the box.

You're trying (badly) to make an argument for a market that Apple already has solutions in place and is happy with those solutions.
 
Zdigital2015 said:
I don't see people that are currently complaining over the cost of the 2019 Mac Pro suddenly purchasing a $5000-$6000 display to go with their $3,000 "bargain" Mac Pro. A keyboard and a mouse? Pretty sure those would already be in the box.

You're trying (badly) to make an argument for a market that Apple already has solutions in place and is happy with those solutions.
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The 2013 Mac Pro didn’t include a keyboard or mouse.
 
Mr. Dee said:
The 2013 Mac Pro didn’t include a keyboard or mouse.
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$250 for a keyboard and a mouse on a low volume product is not a win in Apple’s book or anyone else’s. It’s just not a market Apple is going to address. The writing has been on the wall since the introduction of the G5. Higher price point, more specialized less consumer or even prosumer oriented. Had Apple taken the time to upgrade the 6,1 MP over its six year lifespan, they would have crept the price up every year to get it closer to a base of $6K and this whole thread of conversations would be moot because the current base Mac Pro 6,1 would be sporting an Intel Xeon E5-1650 v4 or 1680 v4, a Vega GPU and DDR4 ECC DRAM and a faster SSD with lots of price creep instead of a v2, a D500 POS and DDR3 and PCI 2 SSD, but I digress.
 
CWallace said:
There will be third-party SATA drive bays that fit inside the 2019 Mac Pro. Promise announced two at WWDC: https://www.promise.com/us/Promotion/PegasusStorage
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The MPX module version pragmatically is "expansion via PCI-e slots". It soaks up at least one, if not two, slots. A x16 PCIe slot traded for 4 HDDs is making a trade off.

The J2i doesn't make any trade-off on PCI-e but does put the drives into the "Santa Ana" heated winds downstream of the CPU. ( that is an empty void because its not a good place for heat sensitive electronics or media. )

There are options to stuff HDDs into the new Mac Pro if you want to. But both involve making compromises. The main focus is on PCI-e SSDs don't have as many compromises and are in the focus points of the system.
 
CWallace said:
There will be third-party SATA drive bays that fit inside the 2019 Mac Pro. Promise announced two at WWDC: https://www.promise.com/us/Promotion/PegasusStorage
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Bring on the SATA III backplane that allows multiple 2.5” SSDs to be plugged in and powered via MPX with RELIABLE, configurable RAID 0, 1, 0+1, 5, 50, 60 or via a ZFS style storage pool. I wish I felt more comfortable with APFS. I don’t think it behaves like ZFS though. I would think anywhere from 9-12 2.5” SSDs would fit and have room for adequate cooling from the fans in the Mac Pro.
 
deconstruct60 said:
The J2i doesn't make any trade-off on PCI-e but does put the drives into the "Santa Ana" heated winds downstream of the CPU.
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Merely an issue of airflow. Putting CPUs at the front of the airflow is common.

My big (2 TiB, 72 Core, 4 socket) servers are arranged (front to back).

  • disk drives
  • fans
  • memory banks
  • quad CPU sockets
  • PCIe slots and optional additional disk drive cages
No problems with the QUADRO RTX GPUs at the "end" of the chain.
 
filmak said:
And it has restrictions, P3 is not as good for photos as adobe RGB or ProPhoto, it is an Apple product so there will be inadequate settings and no buttons, no multiple inputs, no calibration device (like the EIZOs) built-in etc. I'm very curious about the result and maintenance of the factory calibration of this display too, waiting for the reviews...
Click to expand...

and waiting for a replay of the "Apple Cinema Display pink screen" fiasco. The inability to calibrate properly is why I will never buy another Apple display (either attached to a computer or not).

Of course, it's possible they may provide some means for proper calibration, but because it's Apple, I suspect it will be non-standard and limited.

It doesn't matter to me in the end. I can't afford any of this crap.
 
I think the move to offer J2i/J4i as modules was very forward-looking. As SATA fades in relative usefulness, the chassis will be able to evolve. Pull the J4i out in 3-5 years and swap in whatever PCIe-attached storage you want.
 
Slash-2CPU said:
I think the move to offer J2i/J4i as modules was very forward-looking. As SATA fades in relative usefulness, the chassis will be able to evolve. Pull the J4i out in 3-5 years and swap in whatever PCIe-attached storage you want.
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I fully admit to being surprised that after pushing TB3 for expansion they chose a tower design that completely leverages PCIe for flexibility. Whether you want to stuff it full of drives or graphics or weird I/O cards, it's arguably the most flexible computer they've ever made. Of course it remains to be seen how this all shakes out in the real world.
 
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