MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

[danwells]

Much of the chassis/power supply/motherboard expense is shared with something like the Z8, and some of the rest is functional for keeping the thing quiet (many or most of the intended users are video (or audio) pros who care intensely about that). It's not thousands of dollars of Jony Ive statuary - it's a few hundred dollars spent on cosmetics plus thousands spent on making it massively expandable.

Remember that a $3000 Z8 performs like a $500 computer - it's a 1.6 gHz quad-core with 8 GB of RAM, a hard drive and a nonfunctional GPU. Some of the difference between $3000 and $6000 is spent on the functional base configuration, so a $6000 Mac Pro performs like a $2000-$3000 computer, and you will have to upgrade some, but not necessarily all of the pieces (there is no upgradeable piece from the $3000 Z8 that is likely to be part of a functional Z8) . Some more goes to the power supply (the Z8 can have a power supply like the Mac Pro, but it's an upgrade) and cooling, and to a fancier motherboard with more built-in I/O.

I haven't used a Z8, so I'm not sure how loud they are, but I strongly suspect that it roars like a jet engine - I've used a bunch of non-Apple workstations, and most of them are built for engineering and they're LOUD. Apple spent a bunch of money avoiding that because they were aiming at the video market.

I tried configuring a Puget Systems workstation (they have a reputation for being quiet, and they are beloved in the video world) as close to the base Mac Pro as I could get. I couldn't get it exact, because they are not offering the new Xeon-W chips yet (my nearly equivalent machine uses the older, smaller socket 8-core Xeon-W 2145 from the iMac Pro). With the slightly less capable Xeon, quad-channel RAM (and a 512 GB limit), no Thunderbolt and a lesser motherboard, the Puget box came to just over $4800. Paying $1200 for macOS, Thunderbolt, the big socket and newer architecture, the fancy cooling (the Puget is in a stock Fractal Design case, and it'll get noisier under heavy load, especially if you add GPUs) and all the expansion capability doesn't seem way out of line.

Some people will choose one, some people the other, but it's not "the Mac's twice the price"...

 

[OS6-OSX]

And really quite unnecessary except as 'art'.

OK! Since you said it was art we invited it to be displayed with the 6,1.
Tell apple to stop making objects of art because this small gallery is quickly running out of space. Also, will someone, anyone, tell 7,1 that this is a museum of modern art and to take off those #^$*% skates inside! @6K we know you are a spoiled little brat but this is unacceptable!

 

[Aldaris]

They haven't had multiple "headless Macs" since 1998 when Steve Jobs implemented the 4 quadrant product matrix. It's not happening...Apple recognizes that the ATX- and mATX segment is the market segment with the biggest downsides and smallest upside for product growth and differentiation. That market is defined by who can build the least worst POS the cheapest and turn a single digit profit margin on it.

Why can't people realize this is not the pool in which Apple is ever going to swim. Steve Jobs figured it out 20+ years ago, otherwise Apple would not exist today.

I used to agree with this but then Apple abandoned it on the portable front. There is this weird hybrid area between what used to be the iBook/PowerBook space with the MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro space, and certainly you could argue “no it’s the same just a 3x2 matrix with Mac mini, iMac, and Mac Pro” but I think (arguably) there’s still quite a gap in the desktop space.

 

[CWallace]

Steve gave us the MacBook Air and the Mac Mini so he started the product line expansion after originally doing a (significant) product line contraction.

Steve was also the one who chose to move the Power Mac into the true workstation market with the transition to the Mac Pro and decided to take the iMac first into the All-in-One direction and subsequently the "sealed" direction with the aluminum unibody iMac. So as much acid is thrown at Tim Cook, Steve made the decision that when it came to the desktop line, "pros" needed a high-power, (comparatively) high-cost expandable tower and "the rest of us" could/should/would settle for a non-expandable all-in-one computer.

There is no evidence that before he passed Steve was reconsidering that decision with the development of mid-power, mid-cost headless expandable desktop. If there had been, Cook would have brought it to market. You can castigate Tim for not deciding to go forward with one, anyway, but he may very well feel like Steve did on the subject.

 

[Aldaris]

At the time the quadrant matrix was exactly where Apple needed to focus. Now with all the different fields (one can read it as somewhat fractured) I think it’s somewhat overkill in some segments. Granted I am in favor of more choices not less. There are times where an iPad mini is all I need for the given task and possibly preferable to anything else, alternatively there are times I need a 12” iPad Pro. Same goes for traditional computing, there are times all I need is a MacBook Pro hooked up to a display and other time where I really wish Apple offered a true workhorse successor to the power Mac G5/Mac Pro (5,1). Now Apple does! Would I love a middle ground headless-yes I would. Will I end up getting a 7,1-I most likely will. I’ll also have that 7,1 for probably the better part of the next decade and possibly longer if it truly is that upgradable for future chips

But I still wouldn’t mind a decent i9 with some expandability options.

 

[Blair Paulsen]

Apple has chosen to make a case - both design and materials - that could last more than a decade with regular upgrades. From an environmental POV that's a good thing.
BTW, count me as somebody who is happy to pay more for a quieter machine. Have you priced isolation cabinets with liquid cooling lately? For the folks who don't care about some noise, I understand the frustration in having to pay a higher price - but I'd wager the fat part of the target market considers it a genuine value.

 

[ct2k7]

Media production team at work asked for basic costing to get the feel of how management could proceed with the purchase this week.

Let’s just say that unless they agree to a freeze in a lot of other areas, they’re going to be stuck with a trash can Mac Pro. Sucks for them though. I’m sure they can do their work on an iMac Pro, but I don’t spent time with them so I have no idea.

 

[fuchsdh]

Media production team at work asked for basic costing to get the feel of how management could proceed with the purchase this week.

Let’s just say that unless they agree to a freeze in a lot of other areas, they’re going to be stuck with a trash can Mac Pro. Sucks for them though. I’m sure they can do their work on an iMac Pro, but I don’t spent time with them so I have no idea.

What's the thinking with getting a tube Mac Pro versus a modern iMac or iMac Pro?

 

[ct2k7]

What's the thinking with getting a tube Mac Pro versus a modern iMac or iMac Pro?

I should clarify, they currently have the tcMPs, but they want the new MPs, and MDs have said yes.. if they can cut costs and headcount, which is obviously not going to happen. MDs suggested if they could use iMac Pro’s, but I think they’d hate the screen (they really love their damned 32” screens for some reason, and they can’t fit two on the desk)

 

[flat five]

I should clarify, they currently have the tcMPs, but they want the new MPs, and MDs have said yes.. if they can cut costs and headcount, which is obviously not going to happen. MDs suggested if they could use iMac Pro’s, but I think they’d hate the screen (they really love their damned 32” screens for some reason, and they can’t fit two on the desk)

talk them into drawing straws.. one of them quits and the rest of the team get MacPros.

(report back with details..thx)

 

[apolloa]

I should clarify, they currently have the tcMPs, but they want the new MPs, and MDs have said yes.. if they can cut costs and headcount, which is obviously not going to happen. MDs suggested if they could use iMac Pro’s, but I think they’d hate the screen (they really love their damned 32” screens for some reason, and they can’t fit two on the desk)

That does seem really odd when you could have a nice 5K 27” screen and then plug in one of their beloved 32” screens? But hey I’m no video pro or ever seen those 32” screens they use.

 

[fuchsdh]

That does seem really odd when you could have a nice 5K 27” screen and then plug in one of their beloved 32” screens? But hey I’m no video pro or ever seen those 32” screens they use.

Depends on your setup, but two 27" screens is pretty hefty. I feel like most comfortable dual setups top out at 24 inches. I barely have room om my desk for two 22-inch models given that I need my DAS up there as well.

 

[apolloa]

Depends on your setup, but two 27" screens is pretty hefty. I feel like most comfortable dual setups top out at 24 inches. I barely have room om my desk for two 22-inch models given that I need my DAS up there as well.

The guy I quoted said his teams each have ‘two’ 32” screens in their desks. So it’s no problem in their workplace.

Otherwise I’d agree but I guess it all depends on what your using it all for? Or your eyesight maybe?

 

[fuchsdh]

The guy I quoted said his teams each have ‘two’ 32” screens in their desks. So it’s no problem in their workplace.

Otherwise I’d agree but I guess it all depends on what your using it all for? Or your eyesight maybe?

I parsed it as they love their 32" screen and can't fit two, but perhaps he can clarify

 

[apolloa]

I parsed it as they love their 32" screen and can't fit two, but perhaps he can clarify

Seemed clear to me?

(they really love their damned 32” screens for some reason, and they can’t fit two on the desk)

 

[filterdecay]

video pros will generally have 2 screens for edit and a tv for watching thats way bigger then 32". I think this monitor will be for cheaper color correction and photo usage.

 

[ct2k7]

Seemed clear to me?

The guy I quoted said his teams each have ‘two’ 32” screens in their desks. So it’s no problem in their workplace.

Otherwise I’d agree but I guess it all depends on what your using it all for? Or your eyesight maybe?

I parsed it as they love their 32" screen and can't fit two, but perhaps he can clarify

Each staff member there has a choice of two 27” screens or 1 32” screen, most having the latter.

Two 27” doesn’t fit will from what I’ve heard but I haven’t seen anyone try it.

I wonder if I can get budget for screens...

 

[apolloa]

I parsed it as they love their 32" screen and can't fit two, but perhaps he can clarify

Ah seems I was wrong and you were right....

Each staff member there has a choice of two 27” screens or 1 32” screen, most having the latter.

Two 27” doesn’t fit will from what I’ve heard but I haven’t seen anyone try it.

I wonder if I can get budget for screens...

 

[now i see it]

The reason there's no affordable tower/desktop is because of the iMac. Apple desperately wants its customers to buy iMacs cuz their useful life is much shorter.

 

[OS6-OSX]

I think you are painting apple in an unfavorable light! You make it sound like they actually make the iMacs to have a shorter useful lifespan. That would make apple:
1. A penny pinching company!
2. A company that was worth a trillion but didn’t think that was enough!
3. A company that freezes out nVidia regardless of their customers needs!
4. A company that thinks Logic and FCP are the only two apps on the planet!
5. A company that does not make computers for customers but for manipulative purposes!
Now apple would not do any of that, so take back what you said!

 

[startergo]

Dual Xeons server PC starting price 2999:
https://system76.com/cart/configure/thelio-massive-b1
Once again: why should I pay twice as much?

 

[flat five]

Dual Xeons server PC starting price 2999:
https://system76.com/cart/configure/thelio-massive-b1
Once again: why should I pay twice as much?

if you think you're getting the same thing for $3k at that link vs what you'd get for $6k MacPro then pretty sure the answer is... you shouldn't.. you shouldn't pay twice as much.. get the PC

 

[barmann]

This is a rational way to look at Apple's profit-taking - this is an ultra-high end machine, and these nickel and diming decisions are really meant to force high-profit upgrades.

It's just a regular tower, though .
Nothing ultra, high, end or machine about it .
Apart from the price of admission .

 

[msh]

Much of the chassis/power supply/motherboard expense is shared with something like the Z8, and some of the rest is functional for keeping the thing quiet (many or most of the intended users are video (or audio) pros who care intensely about that).

Lower noise may be the only hardware selling point of the new MP. But I see that HP touts their Z4/Z6 line as having “industry leading acoustics.” So how loud is the Z line? Aiden?

 

[barmann]

the aluminum work is also another high cost process.. cMP was stamped and bent.. ie- typical sheet metal methods.. this new thing's cheese grater is 3 dimensional as opposed to cMP's holes which were 2D.. further, it's not just single sided.. they're doing 5-axis machining on both sides of the grill.. it's a huge expense compared to other methods.. it's also a lot slower.. they're probably making maybe 20 a day.. (or- 20 a day per million dollar mill)

Enough with the case already ...
Yes, it's more elaborate than the cMP case, which was designed for the G5 ...

Complex machining, 2/week, polished on virgins' thighs - no it's not .
Even if it was, there'd be no point if it wouldn't significantly improve performance .
Which it wouldn't, because that's not how physics work, and 90s aesthetics underneath the desk is not what workstation buyers will pay for .

Internal layout, accessibility, a solid casing and cooling are a different matter, so are good looks .
But that has nothing to do with a bunch of fancy holes in a box which were concieved by a few middle aged marketing guys who wear black sneakers with white soles .