Great if you use Windows. I use the Mac.
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MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)
- Thread starter Mago
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Great if you use Windows. I use the Mac.
All those programs work natively in Windows, and all these hardware / budget problems disappear in a puff of smoke if you switch. What’s tying you to the Mac ecosystem for production in 2020?
I could understand if you were in a studio and needed complete OS parity to keep friction to a minimum, but I don’t know any freelancers who still stick it out with Apple that aren’t married to FCPX (myself included).
Ed.: I’m not trying to change your mind or anything. I just want to understand why someone would still hang onto a platform that at times feels openly hostile to their profession.
Because I've never used Windows in my life. I've used the Mac exclusively since System 7, and being a self-employed freelancer I'm responsible for all my own IT and troubleshooting. Using Windows and running into a problem would be a nightmare - I wouldn't know where to start. I'm just fearful of the potential problems that I'd run into and my inability to fix them.
I have been close to switching many times, then I'll hear a story about a Mac to PC switcher's nightmare and stay with my trusty 2009 cheesegrater.
So it's not a loyalty thing or an ecosystem lock-in, it's just that I've never used Windows and switching gives me the fear.
Don't let anyone make you feel you're wrong in thinking that way. I'm been using Windows for decades, I can chronical the relative rubustness of Windows with extensive use of Win95 through Win10 (but skipping the trainwrecks of ME, VISTA, and barely glancing at Win8 in horror before going from 7 to 10). Plus I'm a Mac user since th "first 100 days"—I'm a software developer for both platforms.
Windows 10 is quite good, I have no problem with people saying it's a no brainer (in their view), especially for targetted workflows (say, video workstation, 3D, audio), if not for someone with a wide variety of use cases. But the road has been rocky (usable Windows versions, for instance: XP Pro, 7, 10—that spans a couple of decades, yet note ho many version I've left out in between, any of which you were probably hating your computing life if you chose to upgrade along the way). Not every Mac OS upgrade has been seemless, but it sure seems that way by comparision to Windows, some of which were such horrors that Microsoft simply dropped current OS names (like "Vista") and developed basically from scratch for the next one—and taken years beyond their initial target release dates along the way (including Win10, which axed features and added years before completion).
But even if you say, "Windows 10 is modern, efficient, and I'm sure they've finally got it right and the next versions will simply build on this awesomeness, I'll bet on it", the fact is they are more of a pain to maintain. IBM, the original PC maker, figured this out a few years ago—it was cheaper to buy more expensive Macs than to pay for the increased IT support Windows machine required: https://www.computerworld.com/artic...-are-even-cheaper-to-run-than-it-thought.html
Again, I use a Windows 10 machine all day long. I have for years, and, coincidentally, I work for huge PC maker who does not allow us to use Macs—I'm waiting for my new Mac Pro order though, because on my own time I want to be away from windows.
But for some other viewpoints, yes, I certainly get it. If I lived mainly in a app or two I really liked, that required a lot of performance at an affordable price (say, a lot of video editing), a purpose-built Windows machine makes a lot of sense and a Mac looks absurd. Or if you're very used to solving Windows issues and don't mind some of the annoying things about Windows that bother guys like me, great, you saved yourself a lot of money by going generic.
I need to use linux, osx and windows.
For me (and i am not to flexible) Windows 10 pro is stable and easy to use. On a good pc you can put your images on a separate ssd - to be prepared for the worst case - a reinstallation of windows 10 and your rented adobe cc. No problems with T2 chips and associated ssd's.
Agreed. I use Mac OS, Windows 10 for Workstations (great kit) and a number of flavours of Linux (Ubuntu Studio in particular) for various needs /workflows. The current Windows is hot, Catalina a dog (for now). Is almost like 'the bad old days' but in reverse. Plus, Apple seem to now go out of their way to keep their users 'stupid', the 'walled garden' remains much, much hype. My 2 cents: if you are unfamiliar with Win, then learn it. Worth the effort and much of the bagging seems to be very old hype.
totally agree, creatives must have very deep pockets working from home with 16 Core Macs and dual XDR screens, it doesn't make any sense to me. If Apple really listened to creatives we'd have the Xmac by now and they would've patched up their differences with Nvidia, but Apple have other ideas TBH
My opinion: The Mac Pro 7.1 is a 'niche' product for Apple. Like Cartier Sunglasses for 100k. When you buy, you are part of a 'club' or an 'ecosystem'. The Mac Mini was meant to take over the lower end desktop for Apple. It's portable and you can add your choice of multiple monitors and an external GPU. Its high end nestles up to the low end of the 7.1. It's got 6 cores and a 2tb ssd option. Its got RAM configurable to 64gb. Its got Thunderbolt and HDMI ports. And it's a fairly stable computer.
...with a woefully inadequate thermal management system.
Consider it having a low grade fever.... all the time. Ice pack to the forehead.
The current Mac Minis aren't perfect, but they have a new thermal system that lets them run stable. Not quite at full boost clock all the time like the Mac Pro. But not far off.
People have a bias against them here and I don't think most have spent much time working with them.
^^^And that's the other problem - You can't "work" upgrade them. They do not have the life span of a real Mac Pro. Folks are happly running Mac Pros from 12 years back. How many folks are running 12 year old minis❓
Lou
Lou
I'd hazard a guess and say more than 90% of Content creating (video, audio, photo, 3d work) as well as coding and developing could be done on Intel and AMD consumer chips (Intel Core i7-i9) and AMD Ryzen. The Mac Pro is ultimate niche at this point. An Xmac could do all of the above at much lower price and you could even get gamers to cross over into Mac land if game developers started making games for the Mac (build it and they would come)
And that is precisely why I left.....
A 16 core Ryzen based system is about $2400 if you buy it from a system integrator. A few hundred less, if you are capable of using a screwdriver.
I just reached the limits of my patience in the goat ropes required to keep my Mac Pros up and running. If I want a new video card, I just order one (team red, team green, it doesn't matter) and install it - it just works.... NVMe 4.0 - it just works.... GPU rendering - it just works....
And it isn't like OSX is head and shoulders above Windows 10 as far as reliability goes.
I didn't have to replace my 32-bit software (CS2 & Acrobat), and my workflow is faster now than it was before. Truthfully, I should have moved back in 2017, instead of expecting Timmy to get his act together.
The only reason I can see to say on Mac is if your software is OSX only. And I'd recommend looking at a transition plan, because, if Apple goes ARM, that is the end of OSX.
Man that post above kills me. I think there is a serious chance, that...Apple doesn't know it, but Apple has effectively killed the enthusiast market. The core of the 'think different' market segment is bye bye.
You say you agree with codehead1 and then completely contradict him!
I'm a big Logic Pro X user, I use a Hackintosh as my main rig anyway, I'm knee deep into the Mac eco system and I can't see myself leaving (MacBook Pro, iPad Pro, Hackintosh, iPhone, AirPods, Apple Watch), Windows Rig I mainly use just for gaming. I'm not that interested in leaving at this point
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It's so easy to rectify though, Either come out with a Ryzen Xmac or stick with Intel, but give us a machine that's half the size of a Mac Pro at about half the price.... I'm waiting... Lets see what Apple have up there sleeve by years end
I mean this Mac Pro put on notice most pro users (beside kicking off HPC/Data science) and no sign of corrections, for HPC/data science, there's no need for a Mac Pro even if you love macOS ecosystem, you can run/debug on a Linux Server from macOS like you where running a local toilchain, even having still available cuda, FPGA etc, we have Jupyter, no machine nx, vscode even people remotely work on servers repurposed as remote workstation by ipmi/ikvm , and while Linux still have it's quirks, its no more the unfriendly monster it used to be, even some toilchains are easier to setup on Linux than macOS.
Only actual nice where Apple still has its pro users nailed and captive are macOS-specific Audio/Video production applications, mostly Pro Logic and FCP, also are the ones buying cheese grater as hot cakes, and use to have money for that, or at least do not scandal as easy.
But those using apps available at widows/Linux likely jumped to diy or hp/dell/Lenovo WS, Apple is deeply sick and not Covid-19, just get an cheap windows laptop and boot into Firefox and open few tabs, then do the same on a much better spec:d Mac book or MBA, even with SSD boot times are 2-3x than widows, ok everything beautiful and polite, but if your only reason to use a computer is gain money, you can live with windows/Linux and save a lot of money or be more productive with superior hardware, as 2 rtx Titan in a PC clone are almost twice fast than all 4 Vega II doing rendering or training AI, as now Apple is still doomed.
To survive, the Mac needs:
A cheaper workhorse-Mac for real world pro, not just wealthy studios
Embrace again opencl (3.0) and enable thru this GPU accelerated apps as tensor flow or pytorch, also would be beneficial to enable some way for Nvidia GPU to run as bare cuda accelerators w/o gui duties, also needs desperately enable pcie pass-thru for vm/hypervisor and add some Linux distribution to bootcamp, as well esxi/KVM (ok that a bit .lre difficult)
Only actual nice where Apple still has its pro users nailed and captive are macOS-specific Audio/Video production applications, mostly Pro Logic and FCP, also are the ones buying cheese grater as hot cakes, and use to have money for that, or at least do not scandal as easy.
But those using apps available at widows/Linux likely jumped to diy or hp/dell/Lenovo WS, Apple is deeply sick and not Covid-19, just get an cheap windows laptop and boot into Firefox and open few tabs, then do the same on a much better spec:d Mac book or MBA, even with SSD boot times are 2-3x than widows, ok everything beautiful and polite, but if your only reason to use a computer is gain money, you can live with windows/Linux and save a lot of money or be more productive with superior hardware, as 2 rtx Titan in a PC clone are almost twice fast than all 4 Vega II doing rendering or training AI, as now Apple is still doomed.
To survive, the Mac needs:
A cheaper workhorse-Mac for real world pro, not just wealthy studios
Embrace again opencl (3.0) and enable thru this GPU accelerated apps as tensor flow or pytorch, also would be beneficial to enable some way for Nvidia GPU to run as bare cuda accelerators w/o gui duties, also needs desperately enable pcie pass-thru for vm/hypervisor and add some Linux distribution to bootcamp, as well esxi/KVM (ok that a bit .lre difficult)
So true @Mago They've really lost touch with their actual pro users. Adobe products don't even work well on Mac better with Nvidia cards (may as well use Windows), same with DaVinci Resolve, same with Avid Media Composer. Audio side Ableton and Protools work just as well as with windows.
So how many Pro creative Apps are you left with FCPX and Logic X both of which I use. Both of which don't need Xeon processors with ECC RAM.
Intel X299X or Ryzen Threadripper would be perfect systems 64-256 RAM Nvidia or AMD graphics Cards, PCIE NVME card storage as well as T2 storage, thunderbolt, 3 Slot PCIe and call it day for 95% creatives
So how many Pro creative Apps are you left with FCPX and Logic X both of which I use. Both of which don't need Xeon processors with ECC RAM.
Intel X299X or Ryzen Threadripper would be perfect systems 64-256 RAM Nvidia or AMD graphics Cards, PCIE NVME card storage as well as T2 storage, thunderbolt, 3 Slot PCIe and call it day for 95% creatives
Nobody running a 12 year old Mac Pro is happy about that fact. Every single one of them wishes Apple hadn't fumbled the ball so badly on their desktop lineup. Every single one of them wishes that Apple had produced a viable upgrade at some point during the past decade.
Apple knows it - Apple dosen't care. The enthusiasts are more trouble than they are worth in Timmy's mind. Timmy is a bean counter. And like bean counters everywhere, day 91 simply doesn't exist.
Apple is a luxury goods company that specializes in phones, and dabbles (poorly), in hardware and software.
1 bad phone and Apple becomes a much smaller company, because they have chased everybody else off.
Did I mention that this machine actually is cheaper than a barebones Mac Pro?
Even picking 4x Quadro rtx 8000 (48gb each) is cheaper than a similar dual Vega II mp, curiously apple is letting go thus card as running Linux the Vega II duo s are capable of 1:2 fp64 while very niche is the fastest fp64 card available, just not for macOS as fp64 is not supported by metal even 3.0, maybe in the future they enable pcie pass thru and you can run tensorflow/ROCm/Linux on VM or hypervisor.
sorry, for my videowork my MPs are working very well and faster
then a imacpro does in my workflow - so i be really happy!