MP All Models Waiting for Mac Pro 8,1

[Ph.D.]

Summarizing the cautionary posts: First, Apple may not update the 7,1 any time soon regardless of what technologies become available. Second, any near-term updates would be unlikely to yield dramatic improvements in actual practice.

If one has been hanging on with a 4,1 to 6,1 all these years, what should one do? Get a 7,1 at launch and enjoy it, or sit on the old machine waiting "just one more year" (and then another, and another?) hoping for something that just has to be right around the corner, and feeling angry all that time because Apple still hasn't given you precisely what you think they must?

I don't pour over road-maps, but I'm not going to stress about it. Either I'll get a 7,1 at launch or I'll pass on it without looking back. No more "one more year" syndrome!

 

[Krevnik]

Another potential plus for longevity, is the large socket size out of the gate. If, as most of us suspect, process shrink issues are worked out over time - the next gen chips should have enough space to fit. Yes, there are other issues besides space - PCIe3 for example - but at least the option is likely to be there...

It's not like Apple is using an ATX-sized motherboard. Their board is monstrous in comparison, and makes use of both sides. Socket size is probably one of the smaller concerns they have.

The tedious work of moving components for the traces to route correctly is probably the bigger chunk of work with a new socket/chipset, TBH. And that depends a lot on how much change Intel introduces.

Either I'll get a 7,1 at launch or I'll pass on it without looking back. No more "one more year" syndrome!

This. And I'd say it's pretty true for any model Apple produces. About the only other time to consider one is when it's refurbished or otherwise on sale enough to bring it into your price range.

 

[Slash-2CPU]

Another potential plus for longevity, is the large socket size out of the gate. If, as most of us suspect, process shrink issues are worked out over time - the next gen chips should have enough space to fit. Yes, there are other issues besides space - PCIe3 for example - but at least the option is likely to be there...

Unlikely the socket will get smaller even if the die size decreases. The pin count is there to support 6 memory channels, 64 PCIe lanes, and DMI.

 

[deconstruct60]

Unlikely the socket will get smaller even if the die size decreases. The pin count is there to support 6 memory channels, 64 PCIe lanes, and DMI.

The larger socket size means probably can go to an incrementally larger socket without much difficulty. ( if have already moved the RAM DIMM sockets to the other side of the board there is more free space on the CPU side already).

Going to EUV 7nm and lower is going to shrink the maximum size of a die ( due to new fabrication constraints). So individual die is going to be even more decoupled from package. It is going to be about how many dies can fit in the package if engaged in core count 'war'. More smaller dies will tend to inflate the package/socket size. While chasing even higher core counts the memory channels will go up to feed the multiple dies with data. etc.

The Xeon W 3300 series will likely come in a bigger container. Where not chasing maximum core count the package doesn't need to grow/shrink much. It looks like there will be a W 2200 products at some point ( as the W upmarket variants of Cascade X ) . If that brings a shift to more reasonable prices (hence Intel bragging on performance/dollar for Cascade X ) then next iteration of iMac Pro might shift down a bit in price and next iteration of Mac Pro could ease off the death spiral pricing. ). Or Apple could throw the lower component cost at bigger something else for iMac Pro.

The socket size probably missing a major point though. The current mainboard layout that places the highest bandwidth sockets ( x16 unswitched ) at the maximum distance from the CPU is going to add complications once get to PCI-e 4.0-5.0+ era. Ever bigger sockets will be a greater hinderance at some point ( if stick with the kitchen sink number of slots ). They'll need re-drivers which will consume some small amount of space on the board. The more substantive the re-layout issues are the more likely the cycle time to the next Mac Pro will be longer than some are predicting (e.g. ~12-16 months ).

If the W 3x00 series keeps bloating out to ever bigger sockets then will be a mismatch problem eventually with the current basic case premises. However, there would probably be a incrementally bigger W 2x00 to merge to.

 

[Slash-2CPU]

4-channel PCIe 4.0 re-drivers are 9mm x 3.5mm and cost around $5 in 1000-unit quantities. $20-25 additional to BOM for 16 lanes.

For a 16-lane slot or a pair of 8-lane slots, it would take up a little board space. Could easily occupy the dead space between slots.

 

[kinless]

Whelp, if there was any question whether the potential 8,1 would be going Cooper Lake or Ice Lake, this gives us a bit more clarity:

Intel has decided to release Cooper Lake only for high-scale deployments, and will not be available for the general consumer. (Source: https://www.servethehome.com/intel-cooper-lake-rationalized-still-launching-1h-2020/) This means the next Mac Pro will most likely adopt the 10nm Ice Lake platform, with support for PCI-E 4.0 and 8-channel memory. Even though the CPU/platform will be released late this year (pending the world is healthy again), I doubt we'll see a newly revved machine until 2021.

That is of course, assuming they don't switch to ARM or something. (I'll jump ship if they do.)

 

[jscipione]

Until I read that Apple has been adding support for AMD CPUs to macOS Catalina in this article: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/02/07/macos-catalina-amd-apu-references/ I would have thought that the possibility of Apple releasing an AMD-based Mac was a pipe dream, now I’m not so sure. I’m convinced that Apple is heading down the Arm Mac road but once this happens they’ll no longer be eligible for discounts from Intel and will be free to put AMD processors in their high end Macs. This means employing a dual CPU strategy and perhaps Apple has decided that’s OK... or maybe they are just adding these definitions as a negotiation tactic and we’ll never see an AMD Macintosh.

If Apple won’t provide an AMD Mac these definitions added to macOS Catalina will allow for new hackintosh opportunities. If Apple won’t make the Mac Pro 8,1 you want, you may be able to make your own. I wouldn’t expect the Mac Pro to change in the next couple of years, not until at least 2022, so if you’re thinking of picking up one of these bad boys I wouldn’t wait for Apple to release an 8,1 - but I might wait for a sale!

 

[Mago]

That is of course, assuming they don't switch to ARM or something. (I'll jump ship if they do.)

What about AMD Threadripper or Epyc?

At this point I believe very unlikely the Mac Pro 8.1 to run on intel silicon, maybe the 9.1 (if no ARM jump).

AMD Zen based solution seems to me the less risky evolution path untill the CPU market is redefined, AMD has the torch today with Zen 2 based products, ARM has interesting development but still sub-par, meanwhile intel at some point should react and bring back a true competition reinstalling Moore's Law. The next 2 year ahead will define the decade (and hopefully the Von Neuman's architecture Dead)

 

[deconstruct60]

Whelp, if there was any question whether the potential 8,1 would be going Cooper Lake or Ice Lake, this gives us a bit more clarity:
....

There shouldn't have been much confusion there anyway. The Xeon W series was not on Cooper Lake roadmaps at all.

Cooper Lake was always a bit of a stop gap to the Ice Lake. For W series there was amost no market for what Cooper Lake provided ( largely just bfloat16 ).


The rumors pointing to an iMac Pro update this year probably means the Mac Pro isn't coming until at least 2021. Intel isn't a 'lock in' that time frame. AMD has better odds ( but also not completely a 'lock in' either). AMD doesn't have right now what Apple needs either.
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What about AMD Threadripper or Epyc?
...

Been covered in other threads with macOS barrier to > 64 core instances. The other issue is the Mac Pro is wall socket power limited. If dramatically bump the CPU than GPU can't climb higher in max configuration.

Solvable issues but not without zero problems to solve.

 

[Mago]

The other issue is the Mac Pro is wall socket power limited. If

There is also know AMD and intel estimate TDP with different which tends to AMD being more realistic and Intel's too optimistic. This was just covered today at Mac World
https://www.macworld.com/article/3532902/why-apple-should-switch-macs-over-from-intel-to-amd.html , where not just don't rule out AMD in every Mac, but also encourages Apple to jump the ship and give more time to an ARM transition.
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macOS barrier to > 64 thread

It's not an issue that needs a major build, it's likely to redefined few flags and some thread management routine, definitely not a wall.

Year's ago windcrash also had a thread limit, which m$ rised with an simple patch.

 

[AidenShaw]

Been covered in other threads with macOS barrier to > 64 core instances.

Limit is 64 threads - or 32 cores with 2-way hyperthreading.

Year's ago Windows also had a thread limit, which Microsoft raised with an simple patch.

That "simple" patch was to use the Windows Server scheduler code in the workstation SKUs. That code had been polished and optimized for a decode or more on the servers - so it just *looked* like a simple patch.

 

[high heaven]

I think there will be a huge improvement for graphic cards cause AMD is ditching GCN architecture by making both RDNA AND CDNA architecture.

Until 2020, AMD used GCN architecture for all purposes including gaming and computing. But the problem is GCN is not good for gaming and computing compared to Nvidia cause GCN is not specialized for neither markets.

That's why AMD made RDNA and CDNA which have different uses. RDNA 2 will have a whole new architecture unlike RDNA 1 because RDNA 1 is still semi GCN, not new.

Since AMD announced CDNA, there are few questions:

1. AMD made one chip for all purposes such as Vega 2(Radeon Pro) = Radeon VII(Radeon RX) = MI50(Radeon Instinct) But if they make CDNA, what would happen to AMD's strategy? Will they be going to make separate GPU for each architecture or still keeping the current strategy?

2. Will Apple use CDNA? If so, what would happen to the gaming performance?

3. Is there a plan to use AMD CPU since Intel CPU doesn't support PCIe 4.0 so far?

 

[Mago]

Here comes the TrashCan Revenge, as Blomberg said Apple is working on a MP replacement for next year with half size...

 

[MisterAndrew]

Intel based 8,1 "Mac Pro (2021)" coming soon?

References to Intel's Latest Ice Lake SP Processors in Xcode 13 Beta Hint at Forthcoming Mac Pro Update

New Intel chips appropriate for a refreshed Mac Pro have been spotted in the Xcode 13 beta, and Bloomberg's Mark Gurman has confirmed that Apple...

www.macrumors.com

 

[CWallace]

Intel based 8,1 "Mac Pro (2021)" coming soon?

References to Intel's Latest Ice Lake SP Processors in Xcode 13 Beta Hint at Forthcoming Mac Pro Update

New Intel chips appropriate for a refreshed Mac Pro have been spotted in the Xcode 13 beta, and Bloomberg's Mark Gurman has confirmed that Apple...

www.macrumors.com

Looks like the W-3300 could be a drop-in replacement for the W-3200s used now (same socket and C621 chipset)...

EDIT - if Apple does use it, it will be a new motherboard as Ice Lake -64L uses LGA 4189.

 

[tigo013]

Looks like the W-3300 could be a drop-in replacement for the W-3200s used now (same socket and C621 chipset)...

Fingers crossed they do a refresh before Dec, and then in Dec, they can talk about the silicon version of the machine for 2023

 

[TECK]

I'm exhausted from waiting forever for the 7,1

I agree. With the M1 chips, I think we will see a M-series Mac Pro being released pretty soon. I will be interested to purchase one.

 

[MisterAndrew]

Looks like the W-3300 could be a drop-in replacement for the W-3200s used now (same socket and C621 chipset)...

That would only be the case if Apple allows it in the firmware. They might give it a new motherboard with PCIe 4 and DDR4-3200. So I wouldn't count on being able to use the new chips in the 7,1.

Edit: Looks like the chipset is actually different. C621A for Ice Lake-SP and C621 for Cascade Lake-SP.

 

[fuchsdh]

That would only be the case if Apple allows it in the firmware. They might give it a new motherboard with PCIe 4 and DDR4-3200. So I wouldn't count on being able to use the new chips in the 7,1.

I'd be kind of surprised if they did a big new mobo change versus just new GPUs and CPUs, but I'm kind of surprised they'd make another Intel one, too. Wonder if this is chip shortage stopgap or an intentional plan—they certainly don't seem to be going the PPC-> Intel pell-mell rush to change everything asap.

But hey, at least that would make the first Mac Pro in almost a decade that wasn't a one-off

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Looks like there might be one more Intel rev instead:

References to Intel's Latest Ice Lake SP Processors in Xcode 13 Beta Hint at Forthcoming Mac Pro Update

New Intel chips appropriate for a refreshed Mac Pro have been spotted in the Xcode 13 beta, and Bloomberg's Mark Gurman has confirmed that Apple...

www.macrumors.com

 

[CWallace]

That would only be the case if Apple allows it in the firmware. They might give it a new motherboard with PCIe 4 and DDR4-3200. So I wouldn't count on being able to use the new chips in the 7,1.

Edit: Looks like the chipset is actually different. C621A for Ice Lake-SP and C621 for Cascade Lake-SP.

And uses LGA 4189. So looks like new motherboards (if Apple really does plan to use Ice Lake -64L).

 

[rondocap]

It's looking more and more like a fall/end of year type of update, since WWDC didn't bring anymore news -and AMD just announced the W6800 today, so the MPX modules should be a few months away.

IMO the Mac Pro is still really powerful with these GPU upgrades, that's the most important for me really. PCIE is still really fast, and the Xeons, while not thread ripper level, are still performant for the most use cases like in video editing where it still does a good job. Ram is a decent speed and capacity limit too.

The GPU really is the workhorse, so as long as apple keeps allowing new releases on the Mac Pro with good drivers, it will be great for years to come.

By the way, I am testing an export in FCPX with a Mac Pro vs an M1 Mac, and it's not even close for things like Red Raw. Sure, 10 bit 422 H265 footage is fast, but for some heavy codecs M1 is not ready yet due to the GPU power being low right now.

 

[deconstruct60]

Looks like the W-3300 could be a drop-in replacement for the W-3200s used now (same socket and C621 chipset)...

EDIT - if Apple does use it, it will be a new motherboard as Ice Lake -64L uses LGA 4189.

Even besides the socket change, running PCI-e v4 to slots 1 and 3 is probably going to require motherboard adjustments ( redrivers ).

Might need some redrivers to the PLX switch also, but that could remain at PCI-e v3 if Apple is trying to keep the upgrade R&D costs down. But if they want to spend budget they could bump up the "backhaul" to the PLX switch to PCI-e v4 and then still provision PCI-e v3 out from there. That will actually "balance" the over provisioning bett

The 8 memory channels versus 6 can just be mapped differently to the DIMMs . There are some motherboard trace tweaks to be made there also. ( the memory speeds changed. )

Probably gong to update Thunderbolt provisioning with new controllers also to have more USB4 overlap. ( might be a slippery slope with dealing with "older" TB controllers on the previous MPX modules. )

In short, hope that the same motherboard goes far beyond the socket. But they don't have to start over from scratch or some radical shift to a new layout.

 

[MisterAndrew]

No mention of the new Mac Pro at WWDC 2022 at all. I didn't even see one in the CPU lab. They did mention the Pro Display XDR though (used during iPhone webcam demo), which I think is a hint they aren't going to discontinue it. Maybe it's a 2023 product? I think a lot of people were hopeful they wouldn't let it go years without an update like the 6,1.

 

[prefuse07]

lol you revived the thread literally almost 1 year later. Hopefully something comes in Fall of 2022 for the new Mac Pro, hopefully...