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robeddie

Suspended
Jul 21, 2003
1,777
1,731
Atlanta
Yes. MBA was updated only couple of months ago so it's safe to buy now.

I always hear this kind of wording and it always makes me shake my head. "safe' to buy it now ... just makes it sound like if a newer better machine came out next month that all the sudden this one would break.

I guess I'm just so weary of people talking about 'outdated' technology in a world where current laptops are 2x, 3x, 4x times faster than even the fastest desktops of a half decade ago.

Maybe I'm just getting too old. I'm just a grumpy old man now. :(
 
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C64

macrumors 65816
Sep 3, 2008
1,236
222
I always hear this kind of wording and it always makes me shake my head. "safe' to buy it now ... just makes it sound like if a newer better machine came out next month that all the sudden this one would break.

I guess I'm just so weary of people talking about 'outdated' technology in a world where current laptops are 2x, 3x, 4x times faster than even the fastest desktops of a half decade ago.

Maybe I'm just getting to old. I'm just a grumpy old man now. :(

Well, it's understandable. It's never nice to buy something that's updated a week later. Especially when you paid a considerable amount of money for it. Even though it might be just fine for you, if you'd waited a month...

But I completely agree: an "outdated CPU" doesn't mean it won't still be perfectly fine for the majority of the people for years to come, since CPU power isn't all that interesting anymore.
 

DudeMartin

macrumors regular
Dec 2, 2010
240
0
Chicago, Illinois
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C64 said:
if you want to keep it for 4-5 years+ you should definitely wait, there's no place for a C2D in 2014.

Why? If your needs don't change, it really doesn't matter. Software that runs fine on a C2D now doesn't suddenly need a lot more CPU power in a couple of years. Current versions of software from 4 years ago still run perfectly fine on 4 year old computers.

The exceptions are pro-tools, software that really needs as much CPU power and memory it can get, and more heavy photo/video editing, compiling, etc. But if you require something like that, you will a) not be looking at a MacBook Air, b) know perfectly well you will need to update a lot sooner than in 4-5 years. So if you already know that the C2D now is not fast enough for your needs, buy a MacBook Pro and be prepared to upgrade in a year or two.

But with normal use, most people hardly ever stress their C2D CPUs and only use a fraction of its capabilities. That there's a new CPU model doesn't suddenly mean it old one becomes any slower. Turn on the Activity Monitor, do your things, and check the CPU usage. Sure, it might spike every once in a while, but overall it's sleeping most of the time. And this is true for most people. Even though everyone likes to consider themselves a pro-user, this doesn't mean they actually need the best that might be soon available.

Most of the speed you need comes from the RAM (2GB is cutting it close when you multi-task a lot; 4GB is enough for normal use — also with newer software the upcoming years) and the SSD. Why do you think that most of the people who use the Air don't notice that this supposedly outdated C2D is too slow? Because they only use a fraction of it. They just notice how lightning fast the drive is. And even if their RAM runs out, the SSD is fast enough so that swapping to it doesn't really seem all that different from simply having more RAM.

Bottom line: things change. The time that you needed to upgrade every year to run the latest software is long behind us. People tend to look at individual specifications, which is understandable, but it's shortsighted to not look at the whole picture. Apple knows that many people don't need an i7 CPU. But they will notice a fast drive and proper GPU for video. And that's exactly what the Air packs. So, don't worry too much about having the latest CPU model. Instead, look at what you'll be using it for, and if you buy it just to have certain specs, or to actually get your work done.

Thank you. All I have to say...
 

sesnir

macrumors 6502
Sep 21, 2008
368
307
I'm looking to buy one, too... but I'm having flashbacks of when I bought my MBP in January 2009. MBP's got a major refresh in Oct 2008 and I figured I was safe. Less than a week after my purchase, they released the new MBP's with the 8 hour battery and minor CPU bump.

I don't expect a major refresh of the MBA for a long time, but it's anybody's guess if they might do a minor CPU/storage capacity bump, or if they'll actually add in the backlit keyboard everybody wants before then.
 

C64

macrumors 65816
Sep 3, 2008
1,236
222
I don't expect a major refresh of the MBA for a long time, but it's anybody's guess if they might do a minor CPU/storage capacity bump, or if they'll actually add in the backlit keyboard everybody wants before then.
CPU: Nope.
They probably still have C2D contracts or at least stockpiles of those chips. If they suddenly phase out all their computers that use the C2D, they'll never sell them and be stuck with them. Also, Apple never jumps onto the newest tech. We will probably see new MBPs with the new Intel CPU in the near future, but there's no point to change all this in the MBA only a few months after it already had a major overhaul.

Storage capacity: Nope.
Flash storage is still expensive. Not much has changed about that in the last few months, and even if it did, that wouldn't be a reason for Apple to suddenly earn less on MacBook Airs they will sell anyways. Unless prices drop considerably, don't expect much more than 128GB for the base models for the same price. Upgrades to 256GB might become cheaper though, or maybe a 512GB option. But not at this time.

Backlit keyboard: Nope.
For one, not everyone needs this. Yes, it's a bummer for the people who do or were used to it on their previous Air revs, and they'll complain about it every chance they'll get. But it's not like every other notebook on the planet has a backlit keyboard. Most of them don't. And somehow people do seem to find those keys. I don't know why they didn't include it exactly. It could be saving costs. No, a few leds aren't that expensive, but it is another component non the less which influences the manufacturing process. It might also be that there simply isn't enough room left in this crazy thin device, or that adding the backlight causes the MBA to heat up more since there's less room for hot air to escape through the keys. But those are just guesses. I wouldn't hold my breath though.
 

Buck987

macrumors 65816
Jan 16, 2010
1,268
2,106
Sorry if I sound picky, but I don't need MBA right now. However, my needs are for school and work. 11 MBA is perfect for my needs. Although I don't need it right now, I can wait until summer so I can take advantage of back to school promo and Mac OS Lion to be bundled in with my new MBA.

Because I expect Lion Upgrade to cost anywhere between 50-100 dollars and I can get iPod touch for free. That's why I am waiting. I was hoping that apple will update by June/July/August time frame. Maybe, I am hoping too much. Again, I don't buy MBA to sell it in 1-2 years. I plan on keep them around 4-5 years and beyond.


Has apple ever offered the ipod touch promo with purchase of an air?

I just dont recall if they have.
 

Buck987

macrumors 65816
Jan 16, 2010
1,268
2,106
Why? If your needs don't change, it really doesn't matter. Software that runs fine on a C2D now doesn't suddenly need a lot more CPU power in a couple of years. Current versions of software from 4 years ago still run perfectly fine on 4 year old computers.

The exceptions are pro-tools, software that really needs as much CPU power and memory it can get, and more heavy photo/video editing, compiling, etc. But if you require something like that, you will a) not be looking at a MacBook Air, b) know perfectly well you will need to update a lot sooner than in 4-5 years. So if you already know that the C2D now is not fast enough for your needs, buy a MacBook Pro and be prepared to upgrade in a year or two.

But with normal use, most people hardly ever stress their C2D CPUs and only use a fraction of its capabilities. That there's a new CPU model doesn't suddenly mean it old one becomes any slower. Turn on the Activity Monitor, do your things, and check the CPU usage. Sure, it might spike every once in a while, but overall it's sleeping most of the time. And this is true for most people. Even though everyone likes to consider themselves a pro-user, this doesn't mean they actually need the best that might be soon available.

Most of the speed you need comes from the RAM (2GB is cutting it close when you multi-task a lot; 4GB is enough for normal use — also with newer software the upcoming years) and the SSD. Why do you think that most of the people who use the Air don't notice that this supposedly outdated C2D is too slow? Because they only use a fraction of it. They just notice how lightning fast the drive is. And even if their RAM runs out, the SSD is fast enough so that swapping to it doesn't really seem all that different from simply having more RAM.

Bottom line: things change. The time that you needed to upgrade every year to run the latest software is long behind us. People tend to look at individual specifications, which is understandable, but it's shortsighted to not look at the whole picture. Apple knows that many people don't need an i7 CPU. But they will notice a fast drive and proper GPU for video. And that's exactly what the Air packs. So, don't worry too much about having the latest CPU model. Instead, look at what you'll be using it for, and if you buy it just to have certain specs, or to actually get your work done.

this post rings so much truth..it should be a sticky
 

Funkymonk

macrumors 6502a
Jan 7, 2011
773
0
I'm waiting on the 13" pro but if and when MBA gets ivy bridge I'll be selling the pro for that :cool:



nah, i'll be finally replacing this one with a top of the line Z, the performance is just not what i need at this point

My friend's job got him one. It is a beast! good luck
 

fyrefly

macrumors 6502a
Jun 27, 2004
624
67
I agree with a lot of C64's post. But certain things just don't jive...

Why? If your needs don't change, it really doesn't matter. Software that runs fine on a C2D now doesn't suddenly need a lot more CPU power in a couple of years. Current versions of software from 4 years ago still run perfectly fine on 4 year old computers.

So you're saying we should all be using CoreDuo 1.83 MacBook Pros with Adobe CS2 running in Rosetta? 'Cause we all got along with it fine back in 2006?

Software updates. Demands increase. You can't tell me that 99% of current MBA owners won't want to update to OSX Lion when it comes out in the Summer. And I bet OSX Lion will put even more demands on the CPU/GPU/RAM. Those people who bought 1.4Ghz machines with 2GB of RAM are gonna start feeling a bit a slowdown.

The exceptions are pro-tools, software that really needs as much CPU power and memory it can get, and more heavy photo/video editing, compiling, etc. But if you require something like that, you will a) not be looking at a MacBook Air, b) know perfectly well you will need to update a lot sooner than in 4-5 years. So if you already know that the C2D now is not fast enough for your needs, buy a MacBook Pro and be prepared to upgrade in a year or two.

I get what you're saying, but it's not just Pro software.

These days people watch 720p or 1080p on YouTube and Netflix. The MBA as it is barely handles those thing. Yes, people should be buying a different machine if they want 1080p, but in 4 years, do you think YouTube will still be at 320x240? I sincerely hope not. And the SU9400 CPU won't be cutting it (even with 720p) in 4 years, imho. The video will be more compressed and the processor will be more taxed.

But with normal use, most people hardly ever stress their C2D CPUs and only use a fraction of its capabilities. That there's a new CPU model doesn't suddenly mean it old one becomes any slower. Turn on the Activity Monitor, do your things, and check the CPU usage. Sure, it might spike every once in a while, but overall it's sleeping most of the time. And this is true for most people. Even though everyone likes to consider themselves a pro-user, this doesn't mean they actually need the best that might be soon available.

This I totally agree with.

With the caveat that demands *will* increase, and even if one is using, say, 25% of their processor power these days, by Lion and the next OSX, they may be using much more.

Recall that Tiger only needed a G3 and 265MB of RAM. That was in 2005/2006. Leopard needed a G4 867Mhz in 2007 and Snow Leopard in 2009 (less than 4 years later) only supported Intel processors.

Anyone who bought a G5/G4 in late 2005 was SOL less than 4 years later for System Updates. Sure those systems will still run Leopard. But most new software requires Snow Leopard/Intel and those who bought those systems hoping for 4 years from them are... disappointed to say the least.

Most of the speed you need comes from the RAM ... And even if their RAM runs out, the SSD is fast enough so that swapping to it doesn't really seem all that different from simply having more RAM.

This is marginally true at best. Barefeats did a test, and the RAM is about 20x faster than the SSD on the 2010 MBA. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Of course the Page-Outs feel faster than with a 4200rpm HD in the older Airs. But the SSD is still nothing compared to the RAM.

But yes, this "bottom line" still rings true:

Bottom line: things change. The time that you needed to upgrade every year to run the latest software is long behind us. People tend to look at individual specifications, which is understandable, but it's shortsighted to not look at the whole picture. Apple knows that many people don't need an i7 CPU. But they will notice a fast drive and proper GPU for video. And that's exactly what the Air packs. So, don't worry too much about having the latest CPU model. Instead, look at what you'll be using it for, and if you buy it just to have certain specs, or to actually get your work done.

AKA: If you're not a power-user and you want to use the Air as a simple, portable machine for light use (email, surfing, Word processing) and you get 4GB of RAM, the machine should suit you for a few years (as long as your needs to increase).
 

impulse462

macrumors 68020
Jun 3, 2009
2,097
2,878
I was under the impression that 1. intel and nvidia "made up" their differences 2. the sandy bridge IGP didn't perform to apples standards.

I think even when sandy bridges do come out, apple will want to bank on the better GPU, at least for the air since a slightly slower cpu is something they can handle.

Also, what about OpenCL? Has it been put to use by good apps, including the native applications that ship with snow leopard?
 

Doc750

macrumors 6502a
Aug 11, 2010
803
4
I'm in the same boat. I honestly don't need a new laptop. Between the MBP, and the Ipad I'm covered pretty good. But every time I go to the apple store, I see the MBA, and I'm like "damn it, why doesn't it have better specs." I'm just having a hard time dishing out $1k+ for outdated tech.

I might just pick it up at the store tonight, and test it out for a week, and then decide.
 

kolax

macrumors G3
Mar 20, 2007
9,181
115
Backlit keyboard: Nope.
For one, not everyone needs this. Yes, it's a bummer for the people who do or were used to it on their previous Air revs, and they'll complain about it every chance they'll get. But it's not like every other notebook on the planet has a backlit keyboard. Most of them don't. And somehow people do seem to find those keys. I don't know why they didn't include it exactly. It could be saving costs. No, a few leds aren't that expensive, but it is another component non the less which influences the manufacturing process. It might also be that there simply isn't enough room left in this crazy thin device, or that adding the backlight causes the MBA to heat up more since there's less room for hot air to escape through the keys. But those are just guesses. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

Yeah, but I'm sure Apple is using the same keys that they use on the backlit keyboards, so they are slightly transparent. They could have made them a much more solid white.

Or, made them glow in the dark slightly.

The backlit keyboard isn't a big deal, but they've made it difficult for people to see the keys in the dark by keeping the keys slightly transparent, rather than solid white.
 

C64

macrumors 65816
Sep 3, 2008
1,236
222
So you're saying we should all be using CoreDuo 1.83 MacBook Pros with Adobe CS2 running in Rosetta? 'Cause we all got along with it fine back in 2006?
I'm not saying anyone should do anything, just pointing out that things haven't changed that much for your day-to-day apps, and they probably won't for some time to come. Obviously software changes and demands more and more of your computer. But it just doesn't change that fast anymore. Browsing 4 years ago isn't that different from browsing now. Four year old computers can still run new browsers just fine. Same goes for most of Apple's software. The newer versions of all the iLife and iWork apps still run fine, albeit a bit slower.

These days people watch 720p or 1080p on YouTube and Netflix. The MBA as it is barely handles those thing. Yes, people should be buying a different machine if they want 1080p, but in 4 years, do you think YouTube will still be at 320x240? I sincerely hope not. And the SU9400 CPU won't be cutting it (even with 720p) in 4 years, imho. The video will be more compressed and the processor will be more taxed.
The MBA can handle 1080p just fine when it goes through the GPU, not the CPU. Flash videos on OS X cannot, as far as I know, use the GPU yet, so everything needs to go through the CPU. Try playing it on an i7 MBP, its CPU usage will spike just the same and it'll get crazy hot. The GPU can handle these things just fine, if you use an application/format that actually uses the GPU.

But apart from that, yes, needs change. And that's where my earlier "If your needs don't change" comes into play. Future-proofing your system is basically impossible. Maybe for a year, or two. But 4-5... too much changes. So yes, if you want to watch videos on double the resolution in 5 years than you're doing now, or play new video games that come out in a couple of years, you will obviously notice that a MBA that you buy now can't handle it anymore. But that's something everyone needs to decide for themselves. Many people out there really don't need all that much power. And if that doesn't change, you can use a current MBA for many years to come.

With the caveat that demands *will* increase, and even if one is using, say, 25% of their processor power these days, by Lion and the next OSX, they may be using much more.

Recall that Tiger only needed a G3 and 265MB of RAM. That was in 2005/2006. Leopard needed a G4 867Mhz in 2007 and Snow Leopard in 2009 (less than 4 years later) only supported Intel processors.
Looking back at when Leopard was introduced, instead of forcing you to buy a new computer, for many (with the more recent models at that time) it was actually a huge improvement over Tiger, speed-wise. Even for the CoreDuos that were sold in 2006. Snow Leopard only improved the speed even more. I don't know what Lion will bring, but judging on what I've seen so far I don't expect that the core will be that much heavier. If anything, it'll be lighter, faster, improved and more efficient. And all the eye candy like Mission Control can easily be handled by today's MBA due to its GPU.

Anyone who bought a G5/G4 in late 2005 was SOL less than 4 years later for System Updates. Sure those systems will still run Leopard. But most new software requires Snow Leopard/Intel and those who bought those systems hoping for 4 years from them are... disappointed to say the least.
Well, that's a good point. The shift to Intel changed a lot, especially for legacy support in the years that followed. But that's the world of technology. However, can we expect change like that any time soon? I don't know, but I'm guessing we can't.

But again, I'm not saying that you will be able to run everything forever on any device. Things will slow down eventually. But the whole discussion here is about how the C2D CPU is suddenly this ancient piece of tech that can't handle anything anymore. And since every CPU nowadays can handle most things just fine, and the real speed comes from the combination of all the components that each excel in different areas, everyone needs to realize that it's not all that black and white, and shouldn't obsess too much about not having the Sandy Bridge CPU.

This is marginally true at best. Barefeats did a test, and the RAM is about 20x faster than the SSD on the 2010 MBA. That's nothing to sneeze at. Of course the Page-Outs feel faster than with a 4200rpm HD in the older Airs. But the SSD is still nothing compared to the RAM.
You're absolutely right. But this is the big difference between benchmark numbers and how you experience it in real life situations. Sure, 20 is more than 1. But if you don't notice this when you're multi-tasking and doing some work, who cares? There is a huge difference between having your computer slow when it runs out of RAM, and not really noticing any of this because of the SSD. Either way, I don't see a lot of laptops out there with 6 or 8GB of RAM.

Apple simply looks at what most people can use more, and that's upgrading one of the slowest components of today's computers, the hard drive, to an SSD. And that it'll help a lot with your computer's speed when the RAM runs out, is only a good thing. But of course, if you can, buy as much RAM as possible.

AKA: If you're not a power-user and you want to use the Air as a simple, portable machine for light use (email, surfing, Word processing) and you get 4GB of RAM, the machine should suit you for a few years (as long as your needs to increase).
Just to add to the list of things you can do with the Air: they go far beyond browsing and Word processing. Many people always assume that they suddenly need a quad core CPU to process their vacation videos. There is quite a lot the C2D can easily handle, even if you're more serious about video editing or photography, do a great deal of multi-tasking, work with VM ware, etc. And the SSD comes in real handy here too.
 

BobbyCarbn

macrumors regular
Jun 21, 2009
155
0
How long did the last refresh take? It was years, not months. If you need the laptop now, then buy it. The grass will always be greener and sometimes you need to think about it from the perspective of how much enjoyment will you loose by waiting?
 

gonnabuyamacbsh

macrumors 6502
Oct 24, 2010
324
0
Why? If your needs don't change, it really doesn't matter. Software that runs fine on a C2D now doesn't suddenly need a lot more CPU power in a couple of years. Current versions of software from 4 years ago still run perfectly fine on 4 year old computers.

The exceptions are pro-tools, software that really needs as much CPU power and memory it can get, and more heavy photo/video editing, compiling, etc. But if you require something like that, you will a) not be looking at a MacBook Air, b) know perfectly well you will need to update a lot sooner than in 4-5 years. So if you already know that the C2D now is not fast enough for your needs, buy a MacBook Pro and be prepared to upgrade in a year or two.

But with normal use, most people hardly ever stress their C2D CPUs and only use a fraction of its capabilities. That there's a new CPU model doesn't suddenly mean it old one becomes any slower. Turn on the Activity Monitor, do your things, and check the CPU usage. Sure, it might spike every once in a while, but overall it's sleeping most of the time. And this is true for most people. Even though everyone likes to consider themselves a pro-user, this doesn't mean they actually need the best that might be soon available.

Most of the speed you need comes from the RAM (2GB is cutting it close when you multi-task a lot; 4GB is enough for normal use — also with newer software the upcoming years) and the SSD. Why do you think that most of the people who use the Air don't notice that this supposedly outdated C2D is too slow? Because they only use a fraction of it. They just notice how lightning fast the drive is. And even if their RAM runs out, the SSD is fast enough so that swapping to it doesn't really seem all that different from simply having more RAM.

Bottom line: things change. The time that you needed to upgrade every year to run the latest software is long behind us. People tend to look at individual specifications, which is understandable, but it's shortsighted to not look at the whole picture. Apple knows that many people don't need an i7 CPU. But they will notice a fast drive and proper GPU for video. And that's exactly what the Air packs. So, don't worry too much about having the latest CPU model. Instead, look at what you'll be using it for, and if you buy it just to have certain specs, or to actually get your work done.

Most people well be fine with a $400 netbook these days. why get old tech and pay so much for it if something better is available. At premium prices apple should put the best of the best in everything.
 

C64

macrumors 65816
Sep 3, 2008
1,236
222
Most people well be fine with a $400 netbook these days.
Then they should buy one of these netbooks and don't worry about Apple, their prices or there being newer CPU models.

why get old tech and pay so much for it if something better is available.
Because a) the new tech wasn't available yet, and b) you don't just pay for the latest CPU model.

At premium prices apple should put the best of the best in everything.
At premium prices Apple should offer their customers a crazy thin unibody MBA with a proper CPU, good GPU, fast SSD, great screen with a high resolution, awesome trackpad and superior battery life. Oh wait, they did.

I get what you're saying, but you clearly don't see that there's more to a notebook than just the CPU model it carries. So, Apple notebooks aren't for you, and that's perfectly fine.
 

gdeputy

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2008
839
86
New York
The MBA is an ultraportable, nobody is buying one with plans to do heavy photoshop and audio editing. If you are, your an idiot to begin with.

The machine is meant for portability, and it succeeds in that aspect. I adore my MBA for it's weight, form factor, and straight up sexiness, but I also basically browse the web, watch youtube, and write documents ect. on it.

I would never consider doing any heavy lifting with it, it's not built for it, and who the hell would want a cramped 13" screen for SERIOUS video/graphic editing anyways? or especially serious audio recording sessions?

The C2D is plenty fast for the MBA, it blows away anything any netbook currently offers, and for all intent and purpose, thats the market the MBA is in.
 

Doc750

macrumors 6502a
Aug 11, 2010
803
4
Microcenter in Rockville had one for $850. I went and looked at it, and it's a damn sexy machine. But I just couldn't pull the trigger. $850 to browse the web, send off an occasional email, YouTube, Facebook, watch movies on the go, edit documents? I sat there and said to myself, isn't that what my Ipad is for.

On the way to five guys for dinner I kept telling myself I did the right thing. $900 ( w/tax) for C2D, 2 gb, 64 mb is definitey not worth it to me.

Sent from my Ipad, which really is a cool little gadget
 

ClaphamChris

macrumors regular
May 7, 2003
103
0
London, UK
I'm sitting here writing this on a quad core i7 iMac, 2.93Ghz with 12GB of RAM.

I've also got a 2.13 C2D MacBook Air with 4GB of RAM.

For simple use (web, Word, Excel, Mail, VMWare etc) the MBA destroys the iMac for speed. For ripping/reencoding, the iMac destroys every machine I've seen.

But for light tasks, the MBA is simply amazing. Flash vs traditional HD is the difference, clearly. Not the processor.

Horses for courses - if you want to do things that are heavy on the processor, the MBA ain't going to be a great primary machine.

But if your needs are light, the C2D works just fine. The processor doesn't stop working when new ones are released.

I'll bet you now I'll still have the C2D MBA in three years' time.. and I'll still be happy with it.
 

huffboy

macrumors newbie
Dec 30, 2010
24
0
This.

Also if somehow the MBA is not updated by August, then make sure you get one with 4GB of RAM is you want to keep it for a while. 2GB of RAM will not cut in 2014 either. :p :D

World is ending in 2012. Why worry about 2014. jk :p
Anyway, it all depends on what you use the MBA for. I have a 6 or 7 year old Pentium 4 at work with 1gb ramm running on XP but I can still do what I need on it. ( emails, browsing, SAS, mainframe, Office ) ( but I sure hope they swap this out soon )
 
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