Thanks for all the comments everyone. 
Now I can rest assured than any dreams of a mid-line tower are crushed. haha
Now I can rest assured than any dreams of a mid-line tower are crushed. haha
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MP All Models want your honest thoughts on MP possibilities
- Thread starter td2243
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Don't put my name with any love for the trashcan. The trashcan never got any love from me.
I very much dislike the hardware specs, but I love it as an object of design, exactly like the Cube.
I'll have one trashcan someday, when it's cheap enough.
it should be. it’s 15 years newer. it would be with different design decisions.
I agree that Apple isn't going to do an Intel xMac , or any completely new Intel-based Mac, while they have all hands on deck replacing their current Mac products with ARM Macs. Maybe that explains why there was no $3K-$4K 2019 Mac Pro. Perhaps Apple didn't just decide to abandon the "Rest of Us" Mac Pro users, but that the 2019 Mac Pro is above the ARM Mac cut-off line for the foreseeable future, whereas a $3K-$4K Mac Pro is waiting for ARM in 2021. I'm not saying there will ever be a $2K xMac, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a 2021/22 $3K-$4K ARM Mac Pro and then subsequently higher-end versions replacing the 2019 Intel machine when technically feasible.
We certainly expect Apple to provide a Rosetta-like ability to run Intel-based applications on new ARM Macs. But there is no incentive for Apple to provide an ability to run MacOS ARM apps on older Intel machines. Quite the opposite. They want us to buy new computers to run the latest versions of software. And software developers aren't going to keep updating their previous Intel-based software, or produce new Intel-based software, once Apple starts providing ARM-only features in the MacOS. Just like they quickly quit creating new PowerPC software. So while the ultra-high-end target market for the 2019 Intel Mac Pro will probably be unconcerned about running a 2022 ARM-only version of Pixelworks, a $3K 2019 Mac Pro customer would have been. It seems inevitable that we will eventually get ARM Mac Pro's that exceed the performance of ARM iMacs, so it's just question of when, and if they will start in the $3K range or $6K range.
We certainly expect Apple to provide a Rosetta-like ability to run Intel-based applications on new ARM Macs. But there is no incentive for Apple to provide an ability to run MacOS ARM apps on older Intel machines. Quite the opposite. They want us to buy new computers to run the latest versions of software. And software developers aren't going to keep updating their previous Intel-based software, or produce new Intel-based software, once Apple starts providing ARM-only features in the MacOS. Just like they quickly quit creating new PowerPC software. So while the ultra-high-end target market for the 2019 Intel Mac Pro will probably be unconcerned about running a 2022 ARM-only version of Pixelworks, a $3K 2019 Mac Pro customer would have been. It seems inevitable that we will eventually get ARM Mac Pro's that exceed the performance of ARM iMacs, so it's just question of when, and if they will start in the $3K range or $6K range.
How many people are going to replace both hardware and software at the same time? That is assuming of course, that software firms decide that it is worth moving to ARM.
Take a gander at Adobe CS. How long did that take? Will the installers stay on Intel, if the software moves to ARM?
I suspect entire fields will walk away, due to the work required and the sales volume.
Take a gander at Adobe CS. How long did that take? Will the installers stay on Intel, if the software moves to ARM?
I suspect entire fields will walk away, due to the work required and the sales volume.
Yes, I believe in the end it's the software more than the hardware.
ArchiCAD
Rhinoceros 3D
Solibri Model Checker
- can't live without them, in above order
Cinema 4D
LibreOffice
- usefull sw I use regularly, but these would be of secondary importance
I can't see these companies making those softwares would be interested in porting and/or reprogramming their softwares for ARM architecture while maintaining X86 branches for existing hardware at the same time.
If Apple is to move entirily to ARM, we would know about it something already, wouldn't we? It couldn't be kept a big secret if SW-houses are busy porting and hard at work with it right now, or could it?
And if the case is that they are not porting already, maybe they won't bother to port it at all. And if so, then it's the same for me to leave this platform for good, and go with windows.
ArchiCAD
Rhinoceros 3D
Solibri Model Checker
- can't live without them, in above order
Cinema 4D
LibreOffice
- usefull sw I use regularly, but these would be of secondary importance
I can't see these companies making those softwares would be interested in porting and/or reprogramming their softwares for ARM architecture while maintaining X86 branches for existing hardware at the same time.
If Apple is to move entirily to ARM, we would know about it something already, wouldn't we? It couldn't be kept a big secret if SW-houses are busy porting and hard at work with it right now, or could it?
And if the case is that they are not porting already, maybe they won't bother to port it at all. And if so, then it's the same for me to leave this platform for good, and go with windows.
If memory serves the move to Intel was long kept more or less a secret, much doubted and disputed in forums and the machines were unveiled in rather sudden fashion. I don't recall any big secret market-wide porting operation going on beforehand. There was some emulation software they shipped to help with the transition. You wouldn't have wanted to run anything complex utilizing e.g. GPU hardware acceleration through that.
It's no secret this time that Apple is moving some Macs to ARM. We just don't know exactly when and exactly what products. So it should be no secret that some major developers must already be involved. But the success of any transition is going to rest on how well Apple's ARM Macs will run Intel-based software. If a new "Rosetta" is "good enough", it wouldn't be as big a problem if ARM software lags behind the hardware. But if it isn't great, then they will have a big problem. But unlike the PowerPC to Intel transition, I don't see how moving to ARM makes sense for Apple anyway. It baffles me every time I think about it.
Wasn't their slogan once 'Think different'? They still seem to live by that.
Sure, makes no sense for the users. Just like the T2 or soldered-on and custom-format SSDs. Or memory you can't upgrade - or if possible then having memory banks so inaccessible you'd be forced to disassemble most of your machine, voiding warranty and all.
These aren't remotely in the same ball park as an entire platform change is. Not even in the same galaxy. Simile fail.
More like "Think like Apple 2000" when they went with IBM to design and use PowerPC processors until they couldn't keep up with the market and finally in 2005 went over to Intel to solve that problem. I just hope they are going to save a boatload of money on processors to make up for the marketshare they are going to lose walking away from Intel and Windows compatibility. They certainly aren't doing it for performance reasons, because outperforming PC's at any dollar point hasn't been their strategy. I suppose they will say the switchover was for more performance per watt (which is what they said in 2005) to get longer battery life and thinner, lighter laptops, but that remains to be seen.Wasn't their slogan once 'Think different'? They still seem to live by that.
So you believe an ARM based Mac Pro will arrive in 2021 with a 40-50% decrease in price compared to a 2019 Intel Mac Pro?
I'm not predicting exactly when we'll get an ARM Mac Pro. I said I wouldn't be surprised if there was $3K-$4K ARM Mac Pro (starting price) in 2021 or 2022 for the rest of us (the broader market of diverse Mac Pro applications) before they could feasibly do an ARM Mac Pro with the 2019 Mac Pro level of performance. My point was that 2019 was quite obviously too early to produce even $3K-$4K Mac Pro level performance from ARM and they weren't going to do another entirely new, relatively short-lived, dead-end Mac Pro with Intel CPU's while they were and still are busy redoing the rest of the existing Mac lineup with ARM.
I simply don't think they will abandon that end of the Mac Pro market ($3K/$4K up to $12K-$15K) and leave that to the iMac Pro. I think the iMac Pro was/is an interim substitute product based on an existing architecture that will likely be phased out in the future. The Pro Display XDR is a much better price/performance match for a future ARM Mac Pro than it is for the 2019 Mac Pro. They hyped it as equivalent (in some respects) to a Sony Mastering Monitor, but it's not designed to compete in that market, it doesn't even have SDI inputs.
Here's a question to ponder, aimed at nobody in particular: is the MP a growth market?
On this board alone several people have talked about how they had to abandon the high-end Mac market for greener pastures owing to lack of updates over the past 7 years and massive cost increases between the 5,1 and 7,1. Would those people come back if Apple just offered a cheaper alternative?
Do you know of anyone who switched from a PC workstation to a 7,1 MP? Is it actually an attractive platform for people who aren't already immersed in the MacOS ecosystem (married to FCPX, Logic, etc.)?
Apple as a company endeavors to avoid 1:1 spec sheet cost/benefit analysis. The farther they get from traditional PCs, the easier the arguments - 'Apple is the only vendor who does X, so regardless of the cost, that's what I'm going to get'. I'm sure anyone who's read these boards has seen these arguments over and over:
-MacOS is so good that I won't switch, no matter what.
-Win10 is so bad that I won't switch, no matter what.
-Apple designs beautiful products in a way nobody else does.
-I use (FCPX, Logic, other) and do not want to learn a new workflow.
-I'm too deeply invested in the ecosystem (iMessage, AirDrop, FaceTime) to leave.
None of these are necessarily fallacious, obviously. For some people these are completely worth the price premium and vendor lock-in. But it's hard to imagine that it's attractive for people who aren't already knee-deep in it. Apple is run by some pretty smart people; they're going to chase the growth markets and blue skies where they see opportunity. It makes me wonder what fate awaits the current MP if they really do push for an ARM switch on the low-end.
On this board alone several people have talked about how they had to abandon the high-end Mac market for greener pastures owing to lack of updates over the past 7 years and massive cost increases between the 5,1 and 7,1. Would those people come back if Apple just offered a cheaper alternative?
Do you know of anyone who switched from a PC workstation to a 7,1 MP? Is it actually an attractive platform for people who aren't already immersed in the MacOS ecosystem (married to FCPX, Logic, etc.)?
Apple as a company endeavors to avoid 1:1 spec sheet cost/benefit analysis. The farther they get from traditional PCs, the easier the arguments - 'Apple is the only vendor who does X, so regardless of the cost, that's what I'm going to get'. I'm sure anyone who's read these boards has seen these arguments over and over:
-MacOS is so good that I won't switch, no matter what.
-Win10 is so bad that I won't switch, no matter what.
-Apple designs beautiful products in a way nobody else does.
-I use (FCPX, Logic, other) and do not want to learn a new workflow.
-I'm too deeply invested in the ecosystem (iMessage, AirDrop, FaceTime) to leave.
None of these are necessarily fallacious, obviously. For some people these are completely worth the price premium and vendor lock-in. But it's hard to imagine that it's attractive for people who aren't already knee-deep in it. Apple is run by some pretty smart people; they're going to chase the growth markets and blue skies where they see opportunity. It makes me wonder what fate awaits the current MP if they really do push for an ARM switch on the low-end.
No, it isn't. I'll bet what drove the development of the 7,1 was the same thing that drove the development of the 1,1. P.T. Barnum wanted Pixar using Macs, Tim probably wants the studios developing shows for Apple TV to use the 7,1. Anything else is probably gravy. I doubt the 7,1 user base will ever equal a small fraction of the cMP or the trashcan. Much like the trashcan, the 7,1 will do a few things really, really well. But it will lack the ability to do many things well, due to it's price/performance ratio.
I am one of those people that left. I didn't leave because of price - I left because of how little I would get for that price.
The 7,1 is a TCO fail. Full Stop. Obsolete CPU (with no upgrade path); Obsolete IO; Obsolete video cards (The WX5700MPX is a RDNA 1 card - RDNA 2 launches 2nd half 2020). The AVX512 instruction set isn't part of my workflow. Ditto the Afterburner card. The case is nice and I am sure it is quiet, but I have a $50 case that is quiet enough. I don't actually care how loud a box is. Local ambient noise drowns it out.
My new box (Ryzen 3950X based) is modern tech. I no longer have to follow the threads in the MP forum asking if product X works with either OSX or an MP. On the Windows 10 side:
It just works.
Hell of a thing to write after using OSX for almost 20 years.
Would I come back? Only on my terms - which isn't happening. Once you leave the walled garden, you realize just how held back you were. In my case, I really didn't grasp how much GPU rendering would help my 3d art workflow.
I am one of those people that left. I didn't leave because of price - I left because of how little I would get for that price.
The 7,1 is a TCO fail. Full Stop. Obsolete CPU (with no upgrade path); Obsolete IO; Obsolete video cards (The WX5700MPX is a RDNA 1 card - RDNA 2 launches 2nd half 2020). The AVX512 instruction set isn't part of my workflow. Ditto the Afterburner card. The case is nice and I am sure it is quiet, but I have a $50 case that is quiet enough. I don't actually care how loud a box is. Local ambient noise drowns it out.
My new box (Ryzen 3950X based) is modern tech. I no longer have to follow the threads in the MP forum asking if product X works with either OSX or an MP. On the Windows 10 side:
It just works.
Hell of a thing to write after using OSX for almost 20 years.
Would I come back? Only on my terms - which isn't happening. Once you leave the walled garden, you realize just how held back you were. In my case, I really didn't grasp how much GPU rendering would help my 3d art workflow.
I'll go against the grain and say Apple will come out with some sort of gaming VR System based off of ZEN3 AMD processors and Navi 2x for Graphics. Will be out before Christmas holidays 2020. New Mac Pro
You haven't hackingtoshed yet? It's really easy you should give it a go!
You haven't hackingtoshed yet? It's really easy you should give it a go!
If Apple was following your idea and timeframe, we would be on the validation design phase already with prototypes soon to be sent to pre-manufacture validation to be ready by manufacture validation around three or four months before release date.
Think if this is reasonable with all Apple personal working from home.
With ARM switch coming up, I'm pretty sure it won't happen.
Mac Pro is their final answer, aimed at only minute portion of people.
With ARM switch, good luck with future parts upgrade.
Mac Pro is their final answer, aimed at only minute portion of people.
With ARM switch, good luck with future parts upgrade.
I have thought about it, but there just isn't any point to it. I would be right back into the Does this work? nonsense that MP users are dealing with. I want the ability to use any piece of hardware that I feel I need, rather than be stuck with whatever Timmy allows us to have. I will have the ability to use a RDNA 2 video card on release day. How long will the 7,1 crowd have to wait for Apple to write a video driver? How are those 2000 series Nvidia cards working out for folks? What happens if one of the later versions of OSX breaks compatibility with my E-SATA card? It may not matter to others, but it matters to me (Mercury Qx2 for backup).
Timmy's Apple believes that I should be prepared to replace hardware & software at the drop of a hat. That is great for Apple; not great for me.
And yes, hackintoshing is very easy. When I got my test computer, one of the requirements was that it be easy to Hackintosh. The Zenith 210 SFF (fully tricked out) does the job quite nicely.
At the end of the day,